Ultimates V2 #9 discussion (SPOILERS!!)

Look, this thing was hyped as the issue that answered a lot of questions. It was delayed to build anticipation. Yet NONE of the revelations are etched in stone. I've loved this title, but, somewhere around the time that Millar said on his board he was taking a sabbatical, and when he stunk up the UFF, I lowered my expectations dramatically for the Ultimates.

Look at what you guys have been arguing about. Cap KILLED the Red Guardian in Ultimate Nightmare. I mean, your combined desperately wild conjecture is just proof that this issue has left the story in a really shaky climb down to the conclusion.
 
John Q. Public said:
Look, this thing was hyped as the issue that answered a lot of questions. It was delayed to build anticipation. Yet NONE of the revelations are etched in stone. I've loved this title, but, somewhere around the time that Millar said on his board he was taking a sabbatical, and when he stunk up the UFF, I lowered my expectations dramatically for the Ultimates.

You took a pessimistic viewpoint? I have a had time believing that.

Look at what you guys have been arguing about. Cap KILLED the Red Guardian in Ultimate Nightmare.

It was never confirmed as the Red Guardian in Ultimate Nightmare, only speculated about. Hence people saying this could possibly be the Ultimate version of Red Guardian instead of Red Skull, who might make his debut within the next issue or two for sure.

I mean, your combined desperately wild conjecture is just proof that this issue has left the story in a really shaky climb down to the conclusion.

Now you're just being judgemental...well you're always being judgemental, but thats besides the point. The point is its speculation, something that's done a lot on a message board, so don't down on people for doing so. Is your middle name Troll by any chance and the "Q" is just for show?
 
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E was saying that Millar/Hitch hasn't said the "Colonel" is the Red Skull. I'm pretty sure he already knew there was going to be a Red Skull, but he's making me doubt if that is the Red Skull.

BTW, I have a Red Skull.
 
so this went really quickly. the forum. issue 2.

now i know you guys don't respect my opinion at all, but here are my thoughts:

- widow as the traitor is way too obvious, not nearly fun enough. people were saying it was her as soon as she started hitting on stark. it makes sense though, and i guess that is more important

- i friggin hate colonel darth maul.

- i don't see the point in having the whole anti-ultimates team. those jillion supermen could handle them themselves.

- it was cool to see the goliaths bite it, in a big way. giant-man heroes are just not good in the ultimate universe.

- quicksilver kicking *** is cool.

- so, will fury have a cyberarm or just no arm?

biggest gripe:

- ok, i can get SHIELD not picking up on Loki. i can even get SHIELD not seeing that a traitor is in their midst. but there is NO ****ING WAY that they do not notice the manufacture of those giant air ships, the labs creating the super-suits for those millions of soldiers, or the construction of those iron men. no way in hell. they're supposed to see all. if they dont see all, they see most. they wouldnt miss that. this better be explained, or i'll be pissed.

honestly, i have no idea how the ultimates are gonna get out of this. i don't think a single person in the UU, perhaps outside of the Hulk, can take down that many super-dudes.
 
iceman said:
so this went really quickly. the forum. issue 2.
- i friggin hate colonel darth maul.

Hey, I dubbed him Darth Red earlier in this thread and if we are gonna d a star wars reference, that's the want I want to see stick!

- ok, i can get SHIELD not picking up on Loki. i can even get SHIELD not seeing that a traitor is in their midst. but there is NO ****ING WAY that they do not notice the manufacture of those giant air ships, the labs creating the super-suits for those millions of soldiers,

They sort of did. In the annual, we see that Fury is aware that other nations were developping super soldier programs.

What they didn't expect apparrently is that many of these nations would ban together against them. They might also have missed part of the production. If they underestimated their military build up and failed to anticipate that such a very disparate coalition could form, then the current situation becomes acceptable in an "Ultimate" kind of way.

Story lessons : In the 80s, South Africa officially renunced the nuclear weapon and dismantled their aresenal. Which shocked the hell out of the USA because they didn't even know that South Africa had a nuclear arsenal in the first place!

Also, the USA weren't aware that India and Pakistan had such a strong nuclear program going until it was far too late to do anything but accept the fact. So yeah, you can have a whopper happen right under your nose if you aren't focusing your attention at the right place. I say SHIELD has been worrying a bit too much about mutants and illegal genetic mutations and not enough on geopolitics. The way Fury treated that general in the Annual showed he didn't consider him seriously. An American official wouldn't have been so dismissive of a Soviet general during the cold war.

SHIELD is no more omniscient than the real world US intelligence agencies. Sure it has super science on it side, but then so does their enemies.
 
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SHIELD was distracted in the Middle East while the other countries were creating...
 
iceman said:
honestly, i have no idea how the ultimates are gonna get out of this. i don't think a single person in the UU, perhaps outside of the Hulk, can take down that many super-dudes.

This reminds me, was there talk of guest stars in Ultimate 2 #10 and beyond?

While the focus needs to remain on the Ultimates Team character wise, it would make sense to have a cameo from the other numerous New York super humans.

Fantastic Four buried in the Baxter Building? Gimme a break. These invaders focused way too much on the Ultimates. Between Sue and Ben, that team should be out of the rubble in no time. And Johnny can take out hundreds if not thousands of these flyers at a time if goes Nova like he did in the Doom arc.

And the X-Men are restrained?! What the hell man. These guys actually have practice fighting a legion of robots even bigger than those currently trampling through Manhattan. And they haven't even touched Spider-Man yet (though if they have SHIELD file they should know who he is).

Since this remains The Ultimates and not some crossover, I wouldn't want to see much of these other super heros. Just afew panel of these other heroes taking the fight back to the invaders and giving breathing room for The Ultimates Cast to regroup.

We could have someone panicking over the radio screaming that the Fantastic Four have cleared out of the Baxter building and are taking out foreign troups left and right (Cut to a panel) and force the Evil team to react. Meanwhile this leaves the usual cast some room to maneuver.
 
I liked the issue overall, but parts of it struck me as inconsistent with the military build up so far. Natasha was totally my first guess for the traitor. Although, I did float between her and Janet after that.

Okay, here is my s**t list:

-How could the countries attacking the United States amass such a massive army? An army like this would cost hundreds of billions of dollars and a massive, high tech, industrial infrastructure. They act like you can buy these suits at the gap. While most Arab countries have oil money, the ones labeled as threats by the US do not have massive reserves and they spend most of the money they have on massive socialization. Iran, for example, has oil, but not on the level of the other Arab countries, and they can't trade it as freely because of sanctions by the UN.

-How could they get past our conventional armed forces so quickly and effectively? Things like radar prevent a fleet of ships from just appearing in New York City. It's like they expect us to believe they were all in hiding in Brooklyn, and everyone just dropped their trench coats and attacked.

-What made them think that really tall men would be effective against anything but boulders and giant pickle jars?

-The thing with Hawkeye's codes reminded me of the Matrix and the codes to the Zion mainframe, like they're the keys to the kingdom.

-Jarvis dead makes me sad.:cry: I was hoping for a last minute profession of love for Tony. I totally see Tony talking her out of killing him, and then snapping her neck.

-What was Hitch smoking when is thought up those invading ships? They're terrible. It's like they're giant blimps with weird a*s tails.

-Does anyone find it strange that a bunch of super soldiers were able to sneak up on a Hellicarrier and flip it over and crash it?

-Is that supposed to be Betty Ross in the tangerine suit, with the unspoken romance with Fury? Didn't the man serve with her FATHER.

-What is with Red Skull's Darth Maul lightsaber?(not an original statement, but I thought it too when I first read it and I totally agree.) He better use it in a really cool way or have some really cool history for it.

-Does Red Skull strike anyone else as Arab?(I'm not trying to be racist, but that's how I read him.)

-Red Skull holding the camcorder takes away from the seriousness of the last page for me. Speaking of which, does anyone know who the other people on the last page are?

Now the stuff I liked:

-Being betrayed by your fiancé named Black Widow and not seeing it coming. Only geniuses can be this stupid.

-Dead giant men. I always hated those guys.

-Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch kicking a*s. Mutants rock!!!:rockon:

-One armed Fury. He's slowly turning into a black version of Anakin Skywalker. I see him getting a prosthetic arm, from Forge, equipped with a lightsaber now.(that was a joke, but man that would be cool)

-Abomination. I lost a bet on him, but I still love him. I see the Hulk, Colossus, and the Thing taking him on in an all out brawl. My bet is they tear him limb from limb and the Hulk eats most of him afterwards, while the rest of them video tape it as a reminder of why you should never f**k with the Hulk.
 
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E.Vi.L. said:
Hey, I dubbed him Darth Red earlier in this thread and if we are gonna d a star wars reference, that's the want I want to see stick!
I agree. Red Skull is dead and Darth Red is born!!!:twisted:
iceman said:
- i don't see the point in having the whole anti-ultimates team. those jillion supermen could handle them themselves.
I think they are more like commanders than solidiers.(With the exception of Abomination.)
 
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Another thing: If Widow shot hawkeye with poisen (what is that kinda bullets called again?) with the same mag that she killed hawkeyes son with, how come that the son died?
 
MaxwellSmart said:
-How could the countries attacking the United States amass such a massive army? An army like this would cost hundreds of billions of dollars and a massive, high tech, industrial infrastructure. They act like you can buy these suits at the gap. While most Arab countries have oil money, the ones labeled as threats by the US do not have massive reserves and they spend most of the money they have on massive socialization. Iran, for example, has oil, but not on the level of the other Arab countries, and they can't trade it as freely because of sanctions by the UN.
DIrishB gave a pretty good explanation of this already.

-How could they get past our conventional armed forces so quickly and effectively? Things like radar prevent a fleet of ships from just appearing in New York City. It's like they expect us to believe they were all in hiding in Brooklyn, and everyone just dropped their trench coats and attacked.
If SHIELD has the technology to pull it off then these guys now have it too.

-What made them think that really tall men would be effective against anything but boulders and giant pickle jars?
Who thought anyone would be crazy enough to fly through a giant man's brain :?

-Does anyone find it strange that a bunch of super soldiers were able to sneak up on a Hellicarrier and flip it over and crash it?
Like I said, anything SHIELD can do...

-Is that supposed to be Betty Ross in the tangerine suit, with the unspoken romance with Fury? Didn't the man serve with her FATHER.
You definitely read that the wrong way. Holding hands doesn't make you an item. Look at what was happening and think about how vulnerable and emotional Betty really is. Wouldn't a little girl hold her father's hand in that situation?
-Does Red Skull strike anyone else as Arab?(I'm not trying to be racist, but that's how I read him.)
A lot of us. I thought so.

-Red Skull holding the camcorder takes away from the seriousness of the last page for me. Speaking of which, does anyone know who the other people on the last page are?
Not for me. He's not your typical villain. Like he reference Rome, he think he's witnessing history here and has the chance to record his work since he's the leader. Anyone would do it.


-Being betrayed by your fiancé named Black Widow and not seeing it coming. Only geniuses can be this stupid.
It's true. NO one knew who the traitor was. No one had any evidence and none was given so what if it turned out to be her? Even those of us who stood by it wouldn't bet on it. It was pulled off nicely.
 
DIrishB said:
I think E knows that, I think he means that Red Skull might not have made an appearance yet and the Colonel guy in this issue could be a separate character. Though the obvious foreshadowing and paralleling to Cap kind of leans toward it being Red Skull, but nothing definitive or even close.

Exactly. I know Red Skull will be appearing; that's not the question. I just havne't seen anything to make me think that the red helmet guy IS the Red Skull. Not saying he definitely isn't, just saying I don't know why people automatically assume that because he has a little red on his head.

John Q. Public said:
Cap KILLED the Red Guardian in Ultimate Nightmare.

There hasn't been anything anywhere confirming that was Red Guardian. Or even hinting at it for that matter.

ProjectX2 said:
SHIELD was distracted in the Middle East while the other countries were creating...

Yep. Very well done.

SeAcoW said:
Another thing: If Widow shot hawkeye with poisen (what is that kinda bullets called again?) with the same mag that she killed hawkeyes son with, how come that the son died?

When was it suggested that Widow was even at that scene? Or even if she was, that Hawkeye and the kid(s) were shot with the same gun?
 
UltimateE said:
Exactly. I know Red Skull will be appearing; that's not the question. I just havne't seen anything to make me think that the red helmet guy IS the Red Skull. Not saying he definitely isn't, just saying I don't know why people automatically assume that because he has a little red on his head.

I disagree. A Red Skull cap, the anti-thesis to Captain America and Millar's revelation that Red Skull is one of two leading baddies at the end of GTA seriously point towards Darth Red being Red Skull. Why would you give Cap not only this polar opposite enemy, then introduce ANOTHER Captain America villian with the real Ultimate Red Skull? I'm 99% sure that gentleman is Red Skull.
 
E.Vi.L. said:
This reminds me, was there talk of guest stars in Ultimate 2 #10 and beyond?

While the focus needs to remain on the Ultimates Team character wise, it would make sense to have a cameo from the other numerous New York super humans.

Fantastic Four buried in the Baxter Building? Gimme a break. These invaders focused way too much on the Ultimates. Between Sue and Ben, that team should be out of the rubble in no time. And Johnny can take out hundreds if not thousands of these flyers at a time if goes Nova like he did in the Doom arc.

And the X-Men are restrained?! What the hell man. These guys actually have practice fighting a legion of robots even bigger than those currently trampling through Manhattan. And they haven't even touched Spider-Man yet (though if they have SHIELD file they should know who he is).

Since this remains The Ultimates and not some crossover, I wouldn't want to see much of these other super heros. Just afew panel of these other heroes taking the fight back to the invaders and giving breathing room for The Ultimates Cast to regroup.

We could have someone panicking over the radio screaming that the Fantastic Four have cleared out of the Baxter building and are taking out foreign troups left and right (Cut to a panel) and force the Evil team to react. Meanwhile this leaves the usual cast some room to maneuver.

I agree, though I think this should be focused on the Ultimates there should be a panel during the "turn of the tides" on the Anti-Ultimates' radio it should say something like "The X-men and FF have broken our containment" And I would like to see Hawkeye making his way through NYC going nuts shooting down those flying guys and when one comes too close Spidey jumps. But I want a point in tthier series were one or two issues that depicts what exactly happens to them during this event. But I doubt Marvel is smart enough to do a timed crossover event without continuety problems.
We should see Human Torch in the background fighting the flying guys. X-men carry on thier battle to DC Spidey and rest of FF fight those robots
 
Lynx said:
I disagree. A Red Skull cap

It's a helmet. I wouldn't even call it a skull cap. But that's just symantics.

Lynx said:
the anti-thesis to Captain America

Lynx said:
Why would you give Cap not only this polar opposite enemy, then introduce ANOTHER Captain America villian with the real Ultimate Red Skull?

That's a definite stretch. We don't know anything about him, other than when Loki called him Colonel. I don't see how anyone could say he's the antithesis to Cap at this point.
 
compound said:
:lol:

That sounds like TGO excusing his spelling.

Whoops. Wrong finger.

(that sounds like TGO excusing his...nevermind :D )
 

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