Ultimates V2 #9 discussion (SPOILERS!!)

UltimateE said:
It's a helmet. I wouldn't even call it a skull cap. But that's just symantics.


That's a definite stretch. We don't know anything about him, other than when Loki called him Colonel. I don't see how anyone could say he's the antithesis to Cap at this point.

All signs point to it, a red cap? A military status? Simular, almost clone-like look to Cap? Its pretty safe to assume that he is Red Skull, and for discussion purposes he should be referred to as such. But that is a valid point that we're not a hundred percent. But Id bet on it.
 
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Random said:
Its pretty safe to assume that he is Red Skull, and for discussion purposes he should be referred to as such.

I completely disagree.
 
So #9 is the issue everything gets torn down in. #10 must be the "gathering of heroes" step while things continue to get worse, and that leaves 11 and 12 for "epic battle to retake the world."

Wonder when we'll see #10. I'm guessing end of February some time. It's solicited for January, but I kinda doubt that.

Also, this issue had 7 pages added, and the impression that I got was that they were added later, not that the issue was planned to be 29 pages. Any guesses which pages?
 
Rhyo said:
Also, this issue had 7 pages added, and the impression that I got was that they were added later, not that the issue was planned to be 29 pages. Any guesses which pages?

The two pages showing the robots trampling through the street comes to mind.
 
UltimateE said:
It's a helmet. I wouldn't even call it a skull cap. But that's just symantics.

That's a definite stretch. We don't know anything about him, other than when Loki called him Colonel. I don't see how anyone could say he's the antithesis to Cap at this point.

I don't see how that's a stretch. He obviously Cap's analogue on this team. Just like Abomination is Hulk's, Crimson Dynamo is Iron Man's, Perun/Vanguard is Thor's, etc.
 
Lynx said:
I don't see how that's a stretch. He obviously Cap's analogue on this team. Just like Abomination is Hulk's, Crimson Dynamo is Iron Man's, Perun/Vanguard is Thor's, etc.

Analogue and antethesis are completely different...
 
Well that was a surprise. I honestly didn't see that coming. Widow as the traitor comes second to all the other stuff in this issue.

Thoughts and predictions:

-Tony has an ace up his sleeve. I just know it.

-Hawkeye will most definitely escape. Millar wouldn't just have him 'killed off' in issue 7 only to have him killed for real a couple pages later.

-The bald silhouette in the doorway. Who was that?

-Quicksilver's alive.

-Thor, Pym and Cap will come back in a big way.

-Fury gets a cybernetic arm!

-The Antimates: More than likely Red Skull, obviously Abomination, Crimson Dynamo (and I was sure it was Titanium Man in Ultimate Nightmare), Vanguard. Could the black lady be Captain Marvel/Photon? She's speedy if I remember. And the green lady might be Jocasta. I seem to remember her 616 counterpart having similar horns on her head? No idea on the other guy.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
Wow E...

You're hellbent on this not being Red Skull. I have to agree with everyone else I think we have our ultimate Red Skull here.

I've said pretty plainly and several times that it is entirely possible he is Red Skull. However, at this point, there has been NOTHING whatsoever that confirms or even hints at it.

Furthermore, if you want to look at the "anti-Ultimates" as an evil version of the Ultimates, and taking what we know from 616, Red Skull would not be a soldier on the team; he would be the leader. Red Skull would be more the anti-Fury than the anti-Cap. Red Guardian would be the anti-Cap.
 
I tend to agree that this guy can't possibly be named Red Skull. Why the heck would that be his name?

Crismon Dynamo I can see, Red Skull I can't.

This might be "Ultimate Red Skull" in the sense that this guy is meant to fill the role of recurring ideological nemesis for Cap, though. We'll see.

But if his team mates start to call him "Skull", that'd be weird.
 
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On Hawkeye...


What's with this "I hope Hawkeye runs through the streets of New York kicking ***. I mean cmon kids. He's in no position to be kicking *** right now and who said he's being held in New York?

Best case scenerio is he breaks out of his straps and takes down whoever is adjacent to him in that place he's being held but we will not be seeing Hawkeye join the main battle. What's he gonna do radio Fury...

Hawkeye: "I'm alive! Come pick me up."

Fury: "With what?! Glad you're ok, but we kinda have a situation we're dealing with."

Hawkeye fans: "He can just magically run to New York"

Hawkeye: "I'm good but not that good"
 
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Hawkeye: "I'm alive! Come pick me up."

Fury: "Can't! Some bastard ripped off my right arm and I'm driving a stick shift car."
 
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Y'know, I haven't even read the issue yet and I'm thinking that guy is Red Skull.

Unless my codename thing wasn't too far off the mark and Widow is also known as Red Skull. But that would be pretty stupid.
 
No issue has ever disappointed me so utterly, and satisfied me so greatly.

I'll start with the disappointments, which to me, framed the issue. The first three and last three pages are bollocks.

It's too late in the damn series for plot points. We just get the bad doctor telling Hawkeye that he's alive, they're evil, and they've got a traitor. The guy's got a moustache. Give him the ****ing top hat and cane and be done with it.

The last few pages once again show Millar doesn't really handle exposition that well, just having his characters state exactly what's going on because he hasn't effectively set it up before hand. It wouldn't be so bad, but it undermines the threat of the Masters of Evil. They go on about how they've meticulously built up this uber-plan - a plan so well thought out it took months to actualise and it successfully took over the entire government of the United States of America in an hour. That is really amazing planning.

So why the **** do the Masters of Evil talk to Loki like they only met five seconds ago? Shouldn't these guys have had months of debriefing and training? They should be beyond the point of small talk? These guys a professionals. No small talk.

Also - where the **** did this army come from? Now, I understand they had all the security codes so they could get into certain places without being noticed on radars and what not but still - don't Americans have eyes? How the **** do you not SEE these guys coming? The only thing I can think is that they were at very high altitude above clouds, and then they jammed all frequencies and then attacked - which makes sense I suppose. But that doesn't explain where the army came from - how did they build the bloody thing? When and where? I'm assuming this is actually a plot point and possibly Loki allowed them to create the army in an Asgardian realm away from anyone's ability to see them (except Thor). Now that I say this, I realise Millar did something similar in Superman: Red Son.

And Black Widow is the traitor. I went back and checked my older issues just to make sure. Indeed, the issues state three times the traitor is surprising - "I think you'll be surprised when you find out who" - Loki #5, "I didn't have you pegged as a traitor." - Giant Man #6, "Surprised?" - The Traitor #7. Obviously, I use a different dictionary because Black Widow was the most obvious ****ing suspect. As soon as they said, "traitor" I went "Black Widow. Nah... too obvious." Then it turns out the Black Widow. This isn't a case of 'sour grapes' because Millar 'pulled the wool over my eyes'. The point of a mystery is not to have your friends go online and say, "No one has guessed the traitor" and to have your characters say how surprising it will be when it's the only ****ing commie on the team. This is a case of me thinking Millar is a better writer. Captain America or Iron Man would've been MUCH more exhilerating as the traitor. The story Fury gives for Cap being a traitor in #8 sent chills down my spine as I thought how they've been played right from the beginning. Look at all those Iron Man monsters in #9 - why the hell ISN'T Tony the ****ing traitor? But no, it's ****ing Black Widow. Black Widow as a traitor? Okay, that's not too bad. After NINE MONTHS of waiting and hyping and continuous references that it won't be 'who you expect' it turns out to be Black Widow? BLACK WIDOW? What a ****ing anti-climax. It's one-step better than "There is no traitor, we lied". ****ing waste of everyone's time. For a series that seems quite will to push itself and go as far as it can - it wussed out like a little girl. **** the traitor.

See? Disappointed me utterly.

But it satisfied me GREATLY.

I was getting sick and tired of Jarvis and his one-dimension of being perverse and 'shocking'. All his lines were "I'm so shocking and perverse!" Then, he gets shot and I go, "****". Part of me is glad to see him go, but I still felt for the poor blighter. Especially Tony's face in the next panel. I didn't think I'd miss Jarvis. But Hitllar proved me wrong.

Despite the traitor being Black Widow, the actual scenes were very well done. Widow lies about how she feels about Hawkeye so she isn't at the Triskelion when the **** hits the fan. When she starts screwing Tony, she looks at her watch. Very nice touch indeed. Also, I am actually excited to see how on Earth Tony gets out of this one! Part of me thinks he probably likes this position right now.

I love the fact those green-bastards (same colours as Loki by the way) just push the helicarriers into the Triskelion. That's ****ing sweet.

Those green-bastards are *******s. They punched off Nick Fury's arm.

Those poor Giant-Men. They got ****ing CREAMED. So did all those flyboys too. Jeez.

The iconography of the issue was very good. You had the 9/11 fall of the Triskelion, the b-movie sci-fi 'march of the machines', the Nazi blimps, the toppling of the statue of liberty echoing Iraq and Hussein's statue, the Darth Red (good name) lightsaber, the fact that the last page echoes the team's various "We're heroes" poses (Red Skull is in the same position as Captain America when they lead the charge against the Chitauri - when I have time I might try and find the exact poses), and it created a kind of timeless quality to the issue. It just felt like, "This is all the bad things in recent history all happening at the same time" which of course, in the self-contained world of the Ultimates, is absolutely true.

Quicksilver is a hero. We've seen him slowly getting further and further into the foreground as the title has come on, and he's really shining now. No hesitation, no fear - he's into the fray and saving people and comforting his sister at the same time. The guy's a hero. Shows that his 'I hate humans, and I'm an arrogant son of a *****' was just an act. We're seeing the real Quicksilver now.

Scarlet Witch is weird. If I'm right, she altered probability so that the Rocketmen would be able to respond. They seem to be coming from the place where her big pink glow thing came from. I dunno. Scarlet Witch is okay, but I don't know what she actually did this issue at the end.

Also - has anyone forgotten about the Union? Captain Britain, France, Spain, Italy - they're all gonna help. They can't do anything now without support. But Thor's going to lead them into battle. You know it. I know it.

And poor Thor. He's going to kick some ***. And I'm sure Tony's the one who's going to set him free.

The Red Skull (I'm sure it's him - I thought someone else could be the Skull, but I don't see the point) looks unbelievably cool. I love the fact he's a crazy Muslim. No doubt someone, somewhere is claiming this is Islamophobic because there isn't a 'good' Muslim in the story. I would think it's sad writers have to go out of their way to put in 'good' Muslims to prove that most Muslims are 'good'. I would assume most people already think that. That's the problem with political correctness. It assumes everyone is a racist, sexist, homophobic anti-semite. I like my evil, Islamic Red Skull. WHO HAS A ****ING LIGHTSABER! :rockon: Even if the weapon he's carrying starts out as those weird anti-lightsaber sticks Grevious' bodyguards use in III and then the blades grow into Maul's lightsaber - seriously, it just changes on the last page - even if that, The Red Skull (or Darth Red) is ****ing sweet.

Loki is an *******. I have never been more certain of him as a 'bad guy'. What a ****ing *******. You know if the other Masters hadn't been there he would've been masturbating.

And Abomination has a tail. Wicked.

I also like the whole ambiguity of this mess. Pre-emption versus Retaliation. Which is the right one to do? Millar's quite clever because he's shown pre-emption leads to retaliation. It's a perpetual cycle of people being in the wrong, each escalating the other into a perpetual frenzy.

But this is a superhero war. We gotsta have someone to punch. Expect the lines of morality to be blurred until Captain America gets his act together.

It ****ing rocked.






I still think this is all an elaborate surprise birthday party.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
On Hawkeye...


What's with this "I hope Hawkeye runs through the streets of New York kicking ***. I mean cmon kids. He's in no position to be kicking *** right now and who said he's being held in New York?

Best case scenerio is he breaks out of his straps and takes down whoever is adjacent to him in that place he's being held but we will not be seeing Hawkeye join the main battle. What's he gonna do radio Fury...

Hawkeye: "I'm alive! Come pick me up."

Fury: "With what?! Glad you're ok, but we kinda have a situation we're dealing with."

Hawkeye fans: "He can just magically run to New York"

Hawkeye: "I'm good but not that good"


I was just wanted to see him kick some ***, like his high on adrenaline, and beside we dont know where he is held captive and if he is able to run.


UltimateE said:
I've said pretty plainly and several times that it is entirely possible he is Red Skull. However, at this point, there has been NOTHING whatsoever that confirms or even hints at it.

Furthermore, if you want to look at the "anti-Ultimates" as an evil version of the Ultimates, and taking what we know from 616, Red Skull would not be a soldier on the team; he would be the leader. Red Skull would be more the anti-Fury than the anti-Cap. Red Guardian would be the anti-Cap.

The thing is there are hints, little hints, but their still hints. The biggest hint hes' red. But really didnt someone say Red skull was going to appear in Ultimates 2? Also I recall that 616 Red Skull was meant to be a clone of cap, so why not ultimize him as his double. And we already saw the red guardian in Ultimate Nightmare. Im just saying their is enough to reffer to be able him as the Red Skull.
 
Rhyo said:
Also, this issue had 7 pages added, and the impression that I got was that they were added later, not that the issue was planned to be 29 pages. Any guesses which pages?

I'm pretty sure what happened was we just didn't get 'seven new pages'. What happened was Hitch wanted to decompress the action scenes further and redrew most of them and is doing, added 7 pages into the issue. I truly doubt that they had the 22 pages and Hitch just 'threw in' 7 new pages. More likey he redrew 10 pages and doing so, turned them into 17.
 
Hawkeye is a good flyer .. he COULD take a plain. Trust me he will be the one to kill the traitor.
 
iceman said:
so this went really quickly. the forum. issue 2.

now i know you guys don't respect my opinion at all, but here are my thoughts:

- widow as the traitor is way too obvious, not nearly fun enough. people were saying it was her as soon as she started hitting on stark. it makes sense though, and i guess that is more important

- i friggin hate colonel darth maul.

- i don't see the point in having the whole anti-ultimates team. those jillion supermen could handle them themselves.

- it was cool to see the goliaths bite it, in a big way. giant-man heroes are just not good in the ultimate universe.

- quicksilver kicking *** is cool.

- so, will fury have a cyberarm or just no arm?

biggest gripe:

- ok, i can get SHIELD not picking up on Loki. i can even get SHIELD not seeing that a traitor is in their midst. but there is NO ****ING WAY that they do not notice the manufacture of those giant air ships, the labs creating the super-suits for those millions of soldiers, or the construction of those iron men. no way in hell. they're supposed to see all. if they dont see all, they see most. they wouldnt miss that. this better be explained, or i'll be pissed.

honestly, i have no idea how the ultimates are gonna get out of this. i don't think a single person in the UU, perhaps outside of the Hulk, can take down that many super-dudes.


:D Terrific. You nailed it. (And Fury gets the baddest bionic arm in the history of comics).
 
SeAcoW said:
Hawkeye is a good flyer .. he COULD take a plain. Trust me he will be the one to kill the traitor.

...plane...


And I propose that we officially name the obviousely Red Skull guy as Darth Red so E doesn't bust a vein in his head trying to convince us thats not red skull(which he so is)
 

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