Ultimates V2 #9 discussion (SPOILERS!!)

Lynx said:
I'm starting to wonder if it's some sort of staff rather then a lightsaber. I mean, a lightsaber in the Ultimates!? That's. . .out there, no matter how wicked cool it would be.

Yeah, first time we see him it looks more like one of the Magnastaffs that the Magnaguards in Star Wars use to counter lightsabers. Then, on the last page, the weapon looks like a double-bladed lightsaber, so I don't know what it is.
 
6 out of 10 for me.

I read all the pages in post before making mine, to absorb all of your ideas and to form my thoughts on the issue.

I fee like I am reading "Ultimates" all over again. Traitor in the midst (cept this time is a team member), giant invasion, huge splash pages of battles and villans, SHIELD once again misses a huge force, and as someone mentioned before with whole huge disaster thing Millar has going. Thats mostly why the issue got the six out of ten because I feel like Millar is not being original.

Natasha as the traitor is uber-disappointing. Too obvious, not shocking enough compared to the actions of the traitor, just not good. Makes perfect sense though but, just doesn't do it for me.

Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch were the best part of the issue. Loved Quicksilver especially. I could possibly see Hawkeye leading a new team after this arc called the Avengers because he certainly has something to avenge.

Darth Red made me think too much of Star Wars Battlefront 2 and playing as Darth Maul. I still thought he was pretty cool though with his whole speech. Very disappointed they did not introduce either Crimson Dynamo and Abomination before this, two villans that I have been looking very much forward to. Hopefully we'll get an in depth background to both next issue.

Millar's political views are obvious in the comic and he is defitnely taking sides (no need to go into what side, you all know what it is). I have no problem with this, its his comic and he can talk about whatever if wants to. I really hope people realize that he is not really showing both sides of the issue and is putting his own spin on things. He just better do a good job on resolving the conflict which I eagerly await.

In the Ultimate-verse what is the world going to look like politcally. Millar has involved major countries that have taken major steps into creating WW3. The way I see it only two outcomes are possible: Anti-Ultimates win and conquer the "Western" world. Underground resistances form in America and elsewhere, etc. This dramatically changes all the Ultimate titles to freedom fighter comics as each team fights the new government. I doubt this one because I dont think Marvel has given any indication to this and would probably upset most fans. Second way is to have the Ultimates win. But then I have the problem of how the "Western" countries would deal with the countries that attacked them. Would they launch nukes and blow them to pieces? Would they invade and conquer? Or would they just "don't do it again because we made a mistake with all these super soldier programs and it was our fault you attacked us"? Finally the third way is world peace because all the countries realize what a stupid idea super soldiers were and that we should work for a better future. No need for the Ultimates then, except maybe for Latveria (which in my mind conquers the world....eventually).

My bet is the second way but I don't know how it would go from there.

I know this seems a little absolutist but seriously by involving China and friends Millar has truly opened the door to WW3. I expect to see a global conflict that engulfs the whole world in conflict.

Loki probably will not double cross his team but instead leave at the most inoppurtune moment for his team. Loki has the stake of seeing Thor suffer immeasurably and he wants it to continue for as long as possible. His purpose maybe mischief but revenge is the underlying theme of the team he has assembled. Revenge for America's attack, revenge for Thor defeating Loki, revenge for European's getting the spoils of a super soldier program while Asia didn't, etc, etc. Also I think Loki realizes there would be larger and continuing conflict between human vs human instead of all human kind vs crazy robot.

Spiderman, Daredevil, X-Men, and FF all need to make a cameo (but just a cameo), this is too big for them NOT to be involved.

Overall I'm continuing to wait to see how this resolves. Ultimates 2 has been going on for a very long time with a lot of issue to resolve one arc.

I might have something in my points, Im sure someone will point them out. Good Luck everyone.
 
Welcome Hussefell and good thoughts. :twisted:


On the countries involved. I've been thinking. Is it possible that the countries didn't directly plan this but like Fury going against his superiors orders that the countries militaries also took their own liberties?
 
Bass said:
... so that he didn't have to have all his villains have a roll-call at the beginning and end of #9.
The problem that i had with the 'roll call' of villains was that it almost suggested the entire issue was a flashback. We start with a little exposition, we see the destruction of manhattan, and then we have a little more exposition. I felt as though the issue was written just to get the manhattan scene over and done with, almost as though Millar wasn't really enjoying writing it.

TheManWithoutFear said:
On the countries involved. I've been thinking. Is it possible that the countries didn't directly plan this but like Fury going against his superiors orders that the countries militaries also took their own liberties?
Do you mean that the Anti-Ultimates/Masters of evil/HYDRA aren't working directly under their governments but are independent bodies working on behalf of their respective countries?

If so, then yeah, I think so. There is no way that Millar would change the world status quo on such a large political scale, they have to be working outside of a government mandate.
 
Guijllons said:
Do you mean that the Anti-Ultimates/Masters of evil/HYDRA aren't working directly under their governments but are independent bodies working on behalf of their respective countries?

If so, then yeah, I think so. There is no way that Millar would change the world status quo on such a large political scale, they have to be working outside of a government mandate.
Exactly... ****... me and Guij just agreed on something politically in our Ultimates comic. The internet broke in half. I think I'm beginning to fade out existence...
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
Exactly... ****... me and Guij just agreed on something politically in our Ultimates comic. The internet broke in half. I think I'm beginning to fade out existence...
Quite, while the US commits acts of worldwide terrorism with the blessing of the government, other countries aren't that stupid. :)
 
I'm not sure it was the leaders of North Korea, Arab etc. that made this attack possible. No, i think it was private people.
 
It would be cool if there was specifically five countries involved, one for each letter of HYDRA.
 
ProjectX2 said:
It would be cool if there was specifically five countries involved, one for each letter of HYDRA.
Hungary, Yugoslavia, Duetschland, Russia, America.

HYDRA.

The end of the world as you kow it.

Cinemas everywhere December 28th.
Advanced previews December 26th.
 
there has been speculation on how the Ultimate's world will change from this massive attack. I am sure there will be lots of combat involved, but there may be a bit of deus ex machina involved as well.

remember how Loki warped reality in the early part of this series? he made Volstagg disappear, and had Fury convinced that Thor wasn't a Norse god(and some readers to). it stands to reason that Loki used his powers to help arm the anti-ultimates as well. so, perhaps when Thor has words with Loki, maybe a lot(but not all) of the enemy nations power will disappear. just a thought.
 
GMaster said:
Hungary, Yugoslavia, Duetschland, Russia, America.

HYDRA.

The end of the world as you kow it.

Cinemas everywhere December 28th.
Advanced previews December 26th.

:rockon:
 
So someone mentioned something in some thread about how the super-serum in cap's veins was losing effectiveness over time and how this was supposed to play some sort of story role. We know that Cap's the only one that the super-serum has had any long-lasting and non-harmful effect on (except for banner/hulk but i think that the fact that he's the hulk has something to do with why he survived), and there has never really been any out-and-out explanation for why this is. IMHO, it's at least tacitly implied that the reason that cap survives isn't necessarily scientific, it has more to do with who he is and the fact that he is a true patriot and a genuinely good person. I just remember him at banner's funeral and how he really did seem sad about banner's death, even though the guy had killed over a thousand people.

You see this touched on again in issue #10, where you have the reserves, who are in many ways physically superior to the ultimates, they have military training etc but they are still unable to stop this invasion because they don't have "the right stuff," and that the whole thesis here is one that is seen in a lot of comics but really doesn't get old from repetition, which is that powers don't make the hero, it's the attitude and "soul" if you will. I think it is a good message to be pushing in comics, and i think that it's one of the concepts that really defines and makes worthwhile the western comic tradition, as opposed to say a lot of anime and manga stiff, which is obviously inspired by asian and particularly japanese mores (and they have different but equally valid messages and themes in them for the most part). As an example, one of the reasons that superman is still a valid and interesting character in comics isn't his powers, or even his personality, which while made more complex in recent years isn't really his selling point. It's the idea running through the comics that more important than these powers that you're born with or receive through random chance it's the way you behave morally that counts and what you do with what you have. So in that sense it's cap's morals which have really given him his powers, as that's the main difference between him and everyone who's been given the serum. I think that this is really an important message to be giving these days with our focus on wealth, youth, and beauty in today's culture. You look at magazines and they talk about these people and how they're great people because they're so beautiful and famous and rich, and how politicians get more press the more power they happened to get their hands on rather than by how intelligent and worthwhile their policies are. Admittedly comics are part of the capitalist machine as well and of course you don't see too many comics characters not drawn to somewhat ideal personifications of beauty, but i think that that has more to do with comics' roots in myths and fables with their larger-than-life characters than anything else.

Sorry that got a bit wordy :D . Just a bit bored. Anyway, kinda the hole in the above theory is that liebermann wasn't particularly amoral, and he died saving people from a burning building, but that's still my take on it. Though he did supposedly last longest. I'm interested to see how Darth Red turns out; he may or may not have the super-serum in his veins (probably does because he's sort of the anti-cap) and as we've talked about isn't even a "villain with understandable motivations," he's really stopping what from his perspective is the evil empire. From here I think his character could go either way; he could become embittered as a result of the defeat, and possibly disfigured as a result of the serum, and become red skull, or he could become redeemed to some degree, either taken prisoner or perhaps still allowed his freedom. Personally i'd like to see him be a good guy as he just seems like an interesting character who's very similar to captain america but not a carbon copy, though a lot of people would take it as a sort of pc "the arabs are good guys" move, and it doesn't have to be that. In the 90's we saw a lot of russian heroes and stuff, oftentimes redeemed villains because we didn't need to be antagonistic towards them. Now we have this character, and i definitely appreciate that we as a culture and Millar as a writer can see the good in this other culture. At the same time, they're shown to be pretty terrible people, gunning down down civilians in new york etc. It's not like Red's hands are clean of this affair at all; if he's the captain america analogue he's the one who outlined the plan and is commanding all of this. In a sense Red and Cap are in the same quandary, as they're guys who are used to a black-and-white morality system trying to deal with the real world's shades of grey.

On a more banal note, what's up with the lightsaber dealie? whe you first see him and he gives his "roman empire" line the handle part is really long, taking up most of the length of it, than in the team pic at the end its short, more like the double-blade lightsaber dealie. In the first pic i thought that it looked kind of like a lightsaber but more like a staff, but in the second the resemblance is just too apparent. If i had to explain something like that, the casing that he's holding retracts around the "blade" when not in use so that it can be safely handled, rather than energy beams extending from the handle. In that case the blade could be an energized metal of some kind that's giving off light in the red spectrum (again, adamantium maybe? something to cut through cap's shield....) and perhaps vibrates at various frequencies to cut through objects etc. I understand that he's got to have a red motif going, whether he's red guardian or red skull or someone new, cap's enemies have always traditionally had the red thing goin' on.

*whew* what a mouthfull. Thoughts?

Edit: Also, this issue showed a bit more of a focus on quicksilver and wanda. I loved that scene were he took apart the chicken-bot, very cool. It's a credit to millar and hitch that they make pietro a heroic character because heroism has always traditionally been defined, especially in comic books as strength and/or resilience, not speed, and a spritely androgynous looking guy like quicksilver doesn't reallt fit the bill of bad***, but they do a good job. I also hearken back to the issue "Passion Play" where he grabbed thor's belt after getting up off that stretcher; he's really come a long way since the beginning of the series. One image that i would have really liked to see but of course didn't was this picture of pietro's hands and arms being bloodied and torn up from having to pound on the chickenbot for so long; it couldn't have just been pulling out bolts and stuff as there's no way they would have built them that easy to take down. Oh well, chalk it up to comics i guess. I kind of lauged when the antithor made his "dodge this" comment, remembering how a few issues earlier he had dodged the same thing, and am hoping that antithor gets his next issue.

Wanda's powers are kind of tough to adjudicate, because it's not like she can really have her powers work without the fight being over. When they work it's basically like nothing happened because she edits reality. Hopefully that's what vision will be for, linking to wanda's brain and helping her make all of those calculations. Incidentally a good move for wanda would be to neutralize the US's nuclear arsenal so that the union can move in, from a scientific perspective manipulating subatomic particles should be infinitely easier than turning someone into a cat, as there is a much higher influence due to random chance at the quantum level. While we're on the topic she could also conceivably do the same thing in reverse, making non-radioactive matter go critical. I assume that she doesn't do this either because she has to be too close or because it would cause too many civilian casualties. Than again it is comic books and powers don't have to and really shouldn't follow scientific laws.
 
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^Wow, never have such a short opinion have taken up so much space, congradulations are in order

GMaster said:
Holy ****. Someone just rocked out to one of my posts.
:panic: I'm so happy. Although that guy is panicking. Oh well, can't win em all.

Really cause it happens to me all the time.
 
New thoughts:

-I believe it was suggested that Darth Red's "lightsaber" is really just a staff. I think this is the most likely explaination. Last night I tried to draw Darth Red (cuz his costume rocks) and I ended up trying to make it a staff. (I gave up on the drawing though, because Hitch is a bastard and his designs are really hard to reproduce. I nearly went insane trying to draw Ultimate Iron Man)

-Where has Odin been? According to Thor, all of this has happened because his father's "gaze was elsewhere". I predict that Odin will appear to Thor in his cell, probably dressed in a business suit or some other appropriate modern garb (much like Volstagg). He'll tell his son where he's been and how he can finally claim his true powers. Next thing you know, Thor has hair, a full beard and a more "classic" costume. He simply obliterates his cell with a burst of lightning and leaves his cell to find his brother and save the world. It would also make sense if he's the one who frees Cap, much like Jesus freeing people from hell after he was resurrected (I believe that happened...can soemone verify it?). At the moment we can only speculate what Odin's distraction has been.

-Apparently people are assuming that Millar is trying to send a liberal message with this story. I don't think that's necessarily true. What I see the message being is that violence can't stop violence. Yes, America has horribly mistreated other countries but if they retaliate with terrorism, they're simply creating more violence. They attack us, we form the Ultimates, they build up arms, we invade them, and now they invade America. Millar's showing that there is a cycle of violence going on and no one is willing to back down and stop it. He's not "taking a side", he's actually going against both sides.
 
moonmaster said:
-Apparently people are assuming that Millar is trying to send a liberal message with this story. I don't think that's necessarily true. What I see the message being is that violence can't stop violence. Yes, America has horribly mistreated other countries but if they retaliate with terrorism, they're simply creating more violence. They attack us, we form the Ultimates, they build up arms, we invade them, and now they invade America. Millar's showing that there is a cycle of violence going on and no one is willing to back down and stop it. He's not "taking a side", he's actually going against both sides.

Couldn't have said it better myself
 
moonmaster said:
-Apparently people are assuming that Millar is trying to send a liberal message with this story. I don't think that's necessarily true. What I see the message being is that violence can't stop violence. Yes, America has horribly mistreated other countries but if they retaliate with terrorism, they're simply creating more violence. They attack us, we form the Ultimates, they build up arms, we invade them, and now they invade America. Millar's showing that there is a cycle of violence going on and no one is willing to back down and stop it. He's not "taking a side", he's actually going against both sides.
Liberalism isn't by default a stand against American imperialism.
Millar is saying that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Using violence and terror tactics preemptively will almost certainly return in kind.
All Millar is doing is clarifying that the US has brought this invasion upon itself and that there really aren't any good guys. After all, these Anti-Ultimates are just defending themselves, by attacking the US preemptively, just as the US was claiming that it was doing to other countries.
It's lose/lose.

On your other points, yes Hitch is a *****, and yes his work is so well done it's tough to reproduce successfully because it's designed for his style of work.

Where has Odin been? Good point. What's interesting is that Fury has one eye, just like Odin. But we all knew that. What we perhaps didn't all know is that Tyr the god of war and honour only had one arm. Whether the story of how he lost the arm is or importance or not, I dunno, but I do see a Fury parallel.
 
It would also make sense if he's the one who frees Cap, much like Jesus freeing people from hell after he was resurrected (I believe that happened...can soemone verify it?).

That story is called the harrowing of hell and it's not actually in the bible but has been part of the whole christiantity mythos for a long time. Funny, I was just talking about this yesterday in regards to the scene in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe where Aslan busts all of the stoned people out of the witch's castle.
 

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