Ultimates 2 #7 discussion (spoilers)

[Guijllons]

At least not yet...jk


My 700th post!!! Does that mean I'm lucky x100?

Yes, your leg has now grown back.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Well there's always the possibility of a North Korean red skull, but I still think China would feel more threatened by the existence of super-soldiers.

And who says the Red Skull has to work directly for the government? He could be a Mao-ist who went renegade, and is trying to take the country back over...

There's a lot of different ways to approach it.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

After 9/11 I asked my grandfather who he thought the biggest threat to America was. His response was China. If U.Red Skull came from China, it'd probably be best if it was an accident resulting from China's paranoia and a rushed super-soldier program. That way we could give the subtle hints about China's watchful eye over the U.S. and their innocence.

*This convo needs to be broken off into baseless spec.

 

[Guijllons]

I feel that the US is more paranoid about China than vice versa.

But really, the Skrulls have already been established as clinging on to the order of nazism, why change that? Throughout the world there is still the rot of nazism, it still exists in Europe, Jacques Chirac's only opposition in the last election was an extreme right wing party. These people are organised and they are not central to a country, this makes them ever more dangerous as we experience with the terror campaigns from Islamic extremists. Which ties in well with Millar's telling of skrull training camps across the globe. They could come from any country.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I thought we were talkin about Ultimate Red Skull... where'd skrulls come from?

 

[E]

Rather than break off the off-topicness, let's just steer back to the issue at hand - namely, Ultimates 2 #7. Baseless speculation on Red Skull, chinese or no, or Skrulls can go elsewhere...

 

[Bass]

RE: The Parental Advisory and Violence in #7

I agree with Seldes. The Advisory label is a joke. Frankly, it looks like its there to cover any legal worries. **** that nonsense. Either put it because you think it deserves an advisory (which I do) in which case make sure that it's not obtrusive but obvious enough to be seen by anyone looking at the cover with a microscope. If you can hide the label, then obviously you don't need it, so don't put in on the cover and believe that the avergae person won't sue your *** for putting blood in a comic, you ****ing cowards.

So, despite my angry ranting, I agree with Seldes. The label was pathetic.

As for the violence, I'm one of those people that don't mind graphic violence provided it isn't gratuitous. Like sex. If it's there to go, "ooh, look how gross all this blood is" then I don't give a ****. If it's there to make me understand the gravity of the situation, then good.

In this case, the graphic nature of the violence was two fold: Firstly, this is a superhero comic where it opens with the Ultimates crippling a nation on their own. No bloodshed, but that' a pretty grandiose thing to do. To have the simple murder of a child hold that weight, it must seem to 'matter' more. If the scene were done say, from a distant look, or the blood was 'off-panel', it would mute the scene and while that can indeed heighten the impact of violence in certain stories, in the bombastic world of the superhero, muting it would probably have actually muted the meaning of the killing and made us go, "So what? This guy just bombed a country and killed hundreds. His kid just got shot. He's used to death. Get over it and punch the traitor in the face." So having us see the blood makes us get more emotionally involved with the death so it matters to us more than the bombing earlier in the issue.

Secondly it makes the traitor evil. If it was done from a distance, we may go, "Man, that poor traitor. He has to do this because the Ultimates are evil. Poor guy." Until the end of #7 I was on the traitor's side. Now, I'm all for American imperialism. I want that traitor to go down hard, the ****ing bastard that he is. Or she. Women are bastards too.

And thirdly, it's actually not that violent at all. Look at the pace. We never see Callum get shot. Nor do we see the hole in his head. In fact, we see very little. The most violent thing we see other than Hawkeye being shot, is what Hawkeye does to the tratior's soldiers and no one's saying that was too much (because those ****ers got what they deserved). Firstly, Laura gets shot, but there's no sound effect, no bullet. The most we see is her face, eyes open, and a trickle of blood next to her. Nicole's death is implied - she was shot in her bed. As for Callum, he gets shot, but we see no bullet, and only a few droplets of blood close up on Hawkeye's face.

Just look at if from a purely emotionless objective view. There's very little violence actually depicted. We don't see the bullet enter Callum's head and his brain flying out at Hawkeye. We don't see Nicole being machine gunned in her bed. Laura's eyes don't fly out of her head. Even the ****ing baby-killing soldiers don't bleed or spew their internal organs everywhere. In fact, it's all quite clean. What is depicted is depicted properly and gruesomely honest, with the atmosphere filling in the closure for us, but the 'money shots' (pun intended) are never seen. It just feels horrifically violent because... well Hitllar are brilliant and used the technique of closure so that in a sense, we're the ones who killed the family. We're the ones who saw the bullet and the gun... even though we didn't.

To quote Millar, "Ever get the feeling you've been had?"

 

[Seldes Katne]

If Seldes doesn't like violence, then she shouldn't check out Issue 4 of my Spidey Fanfic.

Is that one up yet?

Seldes I'm all for your arguments on how violent it was. I mean we were all taken back with those last pages and the inner hulk in me wants to say it was cool but I give these comics to kids and in the end I couldn't hand this one over to him. The Advisory totally blends in too. It tooke me a while to find it also.

I'd suggest saving the issue for when he gets older, MWoF. At some point he'll be ready for, it's just not for kids. Or the squeamish. (Squeamish. :sure: Gee, and I could dissect pretty much anything in biology class, too. Oh, well....)

Guys, I'm not on an anti-violence crusade here, honestly. I understand that the Ultimates contains violent scenes. (I really have read all the previous issues. I will say that in re-reading the trades I tend to skim the Kleiser fight scene and the domestic dispute in previous issues, but I have read them.) And I understand everyone's assertion that the violence in this issue provokes an emotional response, as was intended, and that Mark Millar has the right to tell the story as he sees fit. I don't argue with the rights of film-makers to produce R-rated films, either, or with people's right to go see them.

For me, what put this over the top was the fact that this is fairly graphic violence against an innocent. In every other case, the victim (a couple of whom soundly deserved to get thrashed, by the way) has been an adult and has some ability to either defend him/herself or flee. Callum (and the other two kids, who are also presumed dead at this point) had neither. Also, even though we didn't see the Hulk actually kill or attack any of the civilian victims in the first arc, I could still empathize with the families who demanded Banner's trial and subsequent execution.

I know I sound like a little old lady. (Frequently, I'm sure.) This was just my honest reaction to the issue. And I appreciate the fact that people are responding in a polite, thoughtful manner, instead of on some variation of "Well, if you don't like it, quit reading it. Now shut up and get off the boards!" Thanks for listening, and sorry for the interruption. Back to the regularly scheduled discussion.... 8)

 

[Bass]

I didn't think you were on a crusade. Just thought I'd put up my fantabulous point of view since I'm the best person that's ever been on this (or any other) planet.

 

[E]

I didn't think it sounded like a "crusade" either. Bass is right - when it's gratuitous, that's different. Everyone's perception is going to be different...I didn't think it was gratuitous at all. The closest it came to gratuitous was the spoons and knives sticking out of the guys' eye sockets, but to me it never crossed that line.

Seldes - try thinking outside the box...consider that it is entirely possible that the victims in question are not innocent at all. It is possible that these killings were no more cold blood than the ones Hawkeye & Widow committed against the Chitauri worker bees.

 

[ngnot]

I think the death scences were shocking because of what we didn't see, our own imaginations can paint far worse pictures.

This reminds me of Quintin Tarintino's Resevoir Dogs, everbody knows the most squimish scene is where Mr.White cuts off the cop's ear. However while this is actually happening the camera pans over to the ramp and we see nothing, you just hear the cop screaming. At this point our own imaginations take over, that's what makes that scene so brutal.

I see much the same technique with these scenes in Ultimates, with obiously the same effects.

And I must say well done Hitlar, that was really horrible
(if that makes any sense)

 

[Guijllons]

I wish I'd written what Bass did but before him, but in a shorter and less formed manner.

..


oh

(Edit: Skrulls and skulls and nazis. Yeah, I think my brain popped out there MWoF, no matter)

 

[elfreo]

Okay, I just saw the last pic of the book and saw the yellow background. As far as my eyes tells me there is NOTHING yellow in that kitchen, although there is freakin' yellow in on the walls around the door. It might be Widow that would go get Scarlets bag.

you know, i remiember reading a book in school called the yellow wallpaper, its about a women who has post mortum psychosis, and has her condition worsened by a wall filled with yellow wallpaper which she is forced to stare at all day. point is that yellow symbolizes insanity, and anger. so maybe its a subtle hint signifying that loki is the reason behind the insanity. that his influence is all around clint and his family. just a thought.

 

[elfreo]

also, in regards to cap relying on the team more, could it be because, as miller comfirmed, cap is indeed getting weaker. and maybe he's starting to feel the searum waring off. and its effects leaving him. so he has to rely on the others more than usual.

 

[Ice]

also, in regards to cap relying on the team more, could it be because, as miller comfirmed, cap is indeed getting weaker. and maybe he's starting to feel the searum waring off. and its effects leaving him. so he has to rely on the others more than usual.

Frank Miller said that? I thought it was Mark Millar?!

Just messing with ya.

 

[mrpopstar]

It was implied that Nicole got shot in her bed?? I missed that.

 

[Bass]

They say "get the one upstairs" or something to that effect.

Also, Guij? I'm better than you.

 

[SeAcoW]

No, they say "Two kids upstairs". GOnna go up there and kill em off

 

[Boil]

I say it is Ross, and that she IS a Super Soldier...

That's right, the introduction of the Ultimate She-Hulk...!?!

 

[Spade]

ultron is the traitor end of story