Ultimates 2 #7 discussion (spoilers)

[Ultimate Houde]

Truly, AdultSwim is the place to live in. I must see more of these shows.

As your master puppeteer, I command you to watch Adult Swim.

Now, back on topic, Harry Potter is teh bobm yo!

Spoiler

Now that's how you freakin' kill Hawkeye. Booya!

 

[Seldes Katne]

Okay, I think I can finally get some thoughts down about this issue without this turning into a vicious rant about the Misuse of Graphic Violence with No Literary Value.... :shock: I'm not even going to pretend there's any kind of logical progression to the following — more like a series of thoughts and impressions. My apologies if people find it confusing.

Perhaps not surprisingly, this issue seemed a lot like Ultimates 1 Issue 7, in which we get a lot of rehashing of previous events (which, given the fact that Issue 6 took place outside the main action, makes a certain amount of sense, but also makes for a kind of "not much happens" issue until the last few pages). For me the big additions are the fact that we get to see Wanda actually do something (although I confess I can't tell exactly what she's doing in the middle of that pink storm—does anyone know what her powers actually are in this title? She can alter probability in the 616 universe, right?), the interaction between Tony Stark and Thor, and the big shocker at the end of the book.

Thor still seems to trust Tony, as he gives Stark the warning to take to his "boss", presumably Fury. This suggests that Thor doesn't consider Stark to be the "wolf". I'd be interested knowing if anyone else has been in to visit. (Other than "Gunnar", of course.) I'd also be interested in knowing how Thor "knows" that there's only one last chance before the other side retaliates. And one last chance to do what, exactly?

Precisely what would be meant by "traitor"? What kind of betrayal would this person commit? Are the murders of Clint's family the work of the traitor, or the retaliation Thor talked about? Are they the same person? If the traitor's goal is to cause the Ultimates to break free of S.H.I.E.L.D. influence, would that be such a bad thing? (As much as I love my country, I don't always agree with my government's actions. I'm not sure I'd trust any one government not to misuse this much power. On the other hand, given the personalities and behaviors of the Ultimates members, I'm not sure I'd want them acting on their own, either.... I have no good answers. Maybe someone else does.)

Several people have suggested the possibility that the traitor and the killer are two different people, and many have commented that they can't see most of the Ultimates members as cold-blooded child killers (other than Natasha. I don't think we've seen enough of Wanda and Pietro in this title to know whether they could do something like that or not. And since I've already been given a condescending lecture on why I shouldn't look at the way the same characters are portrayed in other titles, there seems to be no point in looking at Ultimate X-men for clues.)

However, don't we still have a couple of machines in this title somewhere? What happened to Ultron and Vision II? We know Hank Pym was approached by the traitor six weeks previously. If I recall correctly, some of Pym's Ultron notes are also in S.H.I.E.L.D. possession (mentioned in an earlier issue. If someone has that reference handy, could you please refresh my memory? My back issues have all been passed on to someone else, except for six and seven. Thanks!) If the traitor could access S.H.I.E.L.D. computers for Banner's file and information, s/he could likely pick up other items of interest as well. How much would it take to get one or two robots/androids up and running and looking almost human? Or looking like specific humans? Would a machine have any qualms about killing a kid? I really don't know anything about Ultron or Vision from 616 Marvel—how sophisticated are/were they? (Not that that really matters, as everything in Ultimates seems to be reinvented. Again, something else for discussion.)

Also, (and I hate to ask people to go back and look at the last pages in this issue again, but if someone wouldn't mind) could somebody take a look at the panel in which the one attacker is holding Callum while his partner gears up to shoot the boy? Is the one guy actually holding the boy against him to steady him for the fatal shot? That impressed me as being kind of suicidal. Or am I seeing that grip from the wrong angle?

Sorry, folks, but I'm having a tough time believing the "Clint's family isn't really what they look like and are being killed to save Clint/the planet/some other unspecified worthy goal". If S.H.I.E.L.D. has enough evidence that the Bartons are shape-shifting monsters from Dimension X to actually mount a clean-up mission, why hasn't someone briefed Clint about it so he's in on the plot? And why are they shooting him, too (with something other than, say, tranquilizers)? In the case of the Chitauri, we went into the clean-up mission with Clint and Natasha, which lent some legitimacy to the operation (even though it seemed like a massacre at the time. But at least the violence there was against adults).

I'm wondering if this is another twist on reality. If so, someone tell Wanda to twist it back, PLEASE! (I'd be willing to give up my "warping reality is a sci-fi plot cliché and too easy an out" attitude just this once. Those last scenes were horrible. We don't have a UC smilie traumatized enough to graphically express my feelings about this.) (And please don't anyone make one, either.)

On a lighter note (because I seriously need one right now): in the scene in which Thor's followers are protesting outside the Triskelion, it looks as though there's a banner reading "Thor was right" actually hanging from the side of the Triskelion itself. Could somebody check me on this? Would that be the location of the "canteen"? Is that what Thor's disciples were doing (or are doing, if they're still there) while in the building? Thought that was rather amusing, actually....

And stepping just a bit off topic, could someone define what's meant by "breaking the Internet in half"? This issue was supposed to do that, and I have no idea what that means.

 

[E]

If S.H.I.E.L.D. has enough evidence that the Bartons are shape-shifting monsters from Dimension X to actually mount a clean-up mission, why hasn't someone briefed Clint about it so he's in on the plot?

Most likely would be so he didn't ruin the mission. If a government agency told me my family were alien shapeshfters, government traitors, etc., I probably wouldn't be calm and cool about it. He would have too much emotional attachment to be involved, and would only get in the way or compromise the mission.

 

[Guijllons]

Okay, I think I can finally get some thoughts down about this issue without this turning into a vicious rant about the Misuse of Graphic Violence with No Literary Value...

Does that mean that your rant would have no literary value or the violence didn't? Because I felt the violence to be a very clear progression of the story. Remember, it has a parental advisory warning on the front.

 

[Ice]

However, don't we still have a couple of machines in this title somewhere? What happened to Ultron and Vision II? We know Hank Pym was approached by the traitor six weeks previously. If I recall correctly, some of Pym's Ultron notes are also in S.H.I.E.L.D. possession (mentioned in an earlier issue. If someone has that reference handy, could you please refresh my memory? My back issues have all been passed on to someone else, except for six and seven. Thanks!) If the traitor could access S.H.I.E.L.D. computers for Banner's file and information, s/he could likely pick up other items of interest as well. How much would it take to get one or two robots/androids up and running and looking almost human? Or looking like specific humans? Would a machine have any qualms about killing a kid? I really don't know anything about Ultron or Vision from 616 Marvel—how sophisticated are/were they? (Not that that really matters, as everything in Ultimates seems to be reinvented. Again, something else for discussion.)

So you're thinking that maybe it was the robots? But I dont think that may be, since whoever the killer was, Clint knows him/her.

 

[MoS]

And stepping just a bit off topic, could someone define what's meant by "breaking the Internet in half"? This issue was supposed to do that, and I have no idea what that means.

In the solicit for House of M #3, there was a bit of hype that the last page of the issue would "break the internet in half" - Bendis' own (semi-in-jest) line about the issue from an interview. As the internet failed to break in half after HoM #3, many people (including Millar) have picked up the joke line and run with it. Since the thing which was supposed to do the breaking was related to the death/return of Hawkeye, it's been used to discuss Hawkeye's seeming inevitable death at the end of Ultimates #7.

So, in other words, it's one of those jokes which wasn't good in the first place and has lasted long past its "sell by" date.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Im terribly fascinated by the idea of whoever it is having a large number of people to utilize... but I still think the Traitor is Jan.

I think that Janet is using her BEST FRIEND, and Ultimates press secretary, Betty Ross to help screw things up.

She's with Captain America to get close enough to him to sell him to some foreign entity... I'd still -love- to see a Chinese Red Skull... I mean, Red these days isn't exactly a German Color, is it?

She just killed Hawkeye and family... perhaps Fury's most loyal man.

I'm thinking that she's also using the Black Widow... She's doing her job of distracting Tony too well... I also think that she might doublecross the traitor, she's a spy at heart, and definately thinks for herself and herself alone... And in addition, she might ACTUALLY be developing feelings for Tony. That'd be enough for her to turn herself in, perhaps, but we really don't know.

I think that Jan's lunch with Hank simply exemplifies the idea that it was her up in his apartment. She obviously still has the key, and she obviously visits him often. Her affair with her husband is another clue pointing to her as the traitor, or so I believe.

The only two unaccounted for are Wanda and Pietro. I think the traitors' underestimation of these two will be what bites them in the ***. It also points back to Natasha, who obviously has little respect for the ex-terrorists....

Its all very interesting, to say the least.

 

[Seldes Katne]

Does that mean that your rant would have no literary value or the violence didn't? Because I felt the violence to be a very clear progression of the story.

Well, both, really. I'm sure many people found that section disturbing and don't need to hear me gripe about it. My complaint was about the amount of detail shown; I can usually get the hint that someone's dead without having to watch the blood being sprayed on the walls, especially as this is a child's death by violence. It's the same reason I don't attend R-rated movies, regardless of how much people rave about them. If that makes me a wimp, then so be it.

Remember, it has a parental advisory warning on the front.

Which on my copy, at least, blended in very nicely with the price code. Seriously, it took me three tries to find it; the letters "Parental Advisory" were tipped sideways, written in very thin type, and placed right next to the bar code so they looked like some sort of "compter-eze". (It was like *whispers* "Psst. Parental Advisory. Don't tell anyone.") I'm used to seeing warnings in separate boxes in semi-bold lettering, and I suppose that's what I was looking for. So, okay, it's my fault for not looking hard enough.

So you're thinking that maybe it was the robots? But I don't think that may be, since whoever the killer was, Clint knows him/her.

I'm tossing it out there as a possibility; I don't know how likely it is. I have no idea what the androids' capabilities or appearances are or might be. How closely do they or can they resemble a specific person? Since we've seen them previously in Ultimates 2, presumably they'll be used for something before this arc wraps up. (Based on the old literary theory that if you introduce a gun in the first act you must have someone fire it in the third act.... )

So, in other words, it's one of those jokes which wasn't good in the first place and has lasted long past its "sell by" date.

Ah. Okay, got it. Thanks, Rhyo.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Seldes I'm all for your arguments on how violent it was. I mean we were all taken back with those last pages and the inner hulk in me wants to say it was cool but I give these comics to kids and in the end I couldn't hand this one over to him. The Advisory totally blends in too. It tooke me a while to find it also.

 

[Guijllons]

Hawkeye having his family killed is terrible, it's shocking. It certainly brought a lump to my throat when his son died. That emotional impact about how terrible the event was needed to be played without holding back.

We didn't see the bullet enter, we didn't see the wound, we were shown just enough to make it as terrible as it was.

People bleed, and the blood could have been a lot worse, but the intent was not horror and gore, the intent was emotional impact. And that it had, in just the right balanced amount.

With the bent of the Ultimates being to real people doing extraordinary things and living extraordinary lives, when a death occurs, it should not be anything less than real. If I had felt nothing at the death of Callum, then the story would have failed me.

I don't want to see any child die, but he had to really show how far the "Wolf" would go. Now we know they are heartless (unless there is a twist to follow), and we hate them for what they have done, and it is clear that we should have no sympathy for them.

While I understand some people are more squeamish than others, I don't feel that a good story should compromise its emotional impact to accommodate those.

 

[DIrishB]

Im terribly fascinated by the idea of whoever it is having a large number of people to utilize... but I still think the Traitor is Jan.

I think that Janet is using her BEST FRIEND, and Ultimates press secretary, Betty Ross to help screw things up.

She's with Captain America to get close enough to him to sell him to some foreign entity... I'd still -love- to see a Chinese Red Skull... I mean, Red these days isn't exactly a German Color, is it?

Don't think it ever really was. I think he's called the Red Skull because he has a red skull. But I think the Chinese Red Skull idea is a good one. Much more symbolic than the 616 version anyway.

She just killed Hawkeye and family... perhaps Fury's most loyal man.

I'm thinking that she's also using the Black Widow... She's doing her job of distracting Tony too well... I also think that she might doublecross the traitor, she's a spy at heart, and definately thinks for herself and herself alone... And in addition, she might ACTUALLY be developing feelings for Tony. That'd be enough for her to turn herself in, perhaps, but we really don't know.

I think that Jan's lunch with Hank simply exemplifies the idea that it was her up in his apartment. She obviously still has the key, and she obviously visits him often. Her affair with her husband is another clue pointing to her as the traitor, or so I believe.

But then who was watching them from the car? Cap maybe? Could explain his dour attitude lately (though to be fair, when isn't he?), and could be a device Millar is using to throw us off the trail if it is Wasp.

The only two unaccounted for are Wanda and Pietro. I think the traitors' underestimation of these two will be what bites them in the ***. It also points back to Natasha, who obviously has little respect for the ex-terrorists....

Its all very interesting, to say the least.

So you're thinking the females on the team are the traitors...did you have a bad experience with a woman at some point? jk

Its possible, I have no idea who it could be at this point. I like your theory though, except I think the traitor is working alone (not completely alone, I just mean in terms of Ultimates members). God the suspense is killing me, I tell you, killing me!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhgggggggggggggg!!!

 

[marvelman]

If Seldes doesn't like violence, then she shouldn't check out Issue 4 of my Spidey Fanfic. :shock:

On topic, Dr. Strangefate, I love the idea too of a Chinese Red Skull. That is a totally brilliant idea!

Not that there's anything wrong with China, Chinese people, or Communism, but it could bring into the forefront a Communism v. Capitalism thread to the story.

And Hawkeye is still alive. He has to be.

 

[E]

Seldes - I totally understand not liking the extreme detail in the killings and would never criticise you for it. But I agree with Guij - it's realistic, and it does a lot more to hammer home what is really happening there. I was sick to my stomach after reading that scene. Not because of the extraordinary amount of blood/violence per se, but because of how well that showed how terrible what was happening really was. Extremely powerful. I thought is was perfect, but there's nothing wrong with feeling it was over-the-top.

I also agree with Guij about how it fits the book. This is a book about and filled with extreme situations - nothing out of place.

I don't remember the specifics of the Chitauri scenes from Vol. 1, but wasn't there just as much blood-n'-guts in those scenes? Or when Cap was fighting Kleiser? I seem to remember there was...

 

[DIrishB]

Seldes - I totally understand not liking the extreme detail in the killings and would never criticise you for it. But I agree with Guij - it's realistic, and it does a lot more to hammer home what is really happening there. I was sick to my stomach after reading that scene. Not because of the extraordinary amount of blood/violence per se, but because of how well that showed how terrible what was happening really was. Extremely powerful. I thought is was perfect, but there's nothing wrong with feeling it was over-the-top.

I also agree with Guij about how it fits the book. This is a book about and filled with extreme situations - nothing out of place.

I don't remember the specifics of the Chitauri scenes from Vol. 1, but wasn't there just as much blood-n'-guts in those scenes? Or when Cap was fighting Kleiser? I seem to remember there was...

More so, Kleiser's face was hanging off for most of the fight, and then Hulk started eating him...thats much more gratuitous than #7's.

 

[Guijllons]

I do have a problem with the Red Skrull being Chinese. It unnecessarily demonises China. Even if it is just seen from the Ultimates' perspective.

It was easy to say that Germany were the bad guys during the early 40's, and nazism is universally condemned as a poor thing, but we really don't have anything in today's politics that can be considered "easy evil", at least no country can.

God, that's all so bloody politically right-on isn't it.

 

[E]

It was easy to say that Germany were the bad guys during the early 40's, and nazism is universally condemned as a poor thing, but we really don't have anything in today's politics that can be considered "easy evil", at least no country can.

I dunno...I'd at least be interested to see a comparison of how many Jews Nazi Germany killed and how many of its own people Communist China has killed.

 

[Guijllons]

I dunno...I'd at least be interested to see a comparison of how many Jews Nazi Germany killed and how many of its own people Communist China has killed.

I never said that they were a perfect country, they have massive problems still. And Mao seems to have purposely murdered 30 million Chinese, and was prepared to sacrifice 300 million if need be. However, these are the actions of a man, not a country, and a country that is moving forward and is developing a better way of life for its citizens. And China doesn't go around bombing the **** out of other countries to expand their empire like Germany did.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I do have a problem with the Red Skrull being Chinese. It unnecessarily demonises China. Even if it is just seen from the Ultimates' perspective.

You'd know about demonising other countries *Starts singing star spangled banner*

 

[Guijllons]

You'd know about demonising other countries *Starts singing star spangled banner*

Hehe. I could demonise America of course, but I don't think I need to. I've seen tv

 

[DIrishB]

And China doesn't go around bombing the **** out of other countries to expand their empire like Germany did.

At least not yet...jk


My 700th post!!! Does that mean I'm lucky x100?