Ultimate Spiderman #101 discussion (Spoilers)

Not really. If Millar can get away with setting up an issue #12 intervention in #11, I think we can let Bendis off for setting up an issue #101 intervention in #99. That extra one month doesn't make that much difference does it?

Just because he didn't specifically show the FF thinking "I KNOW! LET'S GO AND HELP PETER!", that doesn't mean he did a bad job of setting it up, to me.

Uh, maybe. But at least Millar set it up to where you knew they were up to something and could rule out deus ex. Bendis would not be getting away with the same thing. He thinks his **** doesn't smell.
 
Once again the problem isnt that the FF showed up in a Duex Ex Machina-esque situation its that its been happening in USM for almost the past 40 issues and Bendis needs to stop doing it and let Spidey take care of business for once. A Duex Ex Machina is okay once in a while but for 40 ****ing issues?
 
Uh, maybe. But at least Millar set it up to where you knew they were up to something and could rule out deus ex. Bendis would not be getting away with the same thing. He thinks his **** doesn't smell.

Bendis showed the FF having knowledge of the attack on Peter and established that they like Peter and were uncomfortable with him being attacked. Also, they called Fury, so would be feeling guilty.

This is enough to rule out a "deus ex machina" accusation. Simply the fact that they have been established in the story and given motivation to involve themselves.

If Bendis had Daredevil or Dr Strange appear suddenly at that point, without any other appearance, and do what the FF did, you'd have a point. But he didn't, he set it up fine.
 
But wouldn't the fact they called Fury make them think things are under control? And why wouldn't they come sooner? Why at just this moment?
 
I think I might know how Sasquatch-Goblin will disappear--remember way back when Norman Osborn first got his powers? He talked about how the spider's venom treated with Oz affected Peter's DNA, and Norman injected himself with his own DNA, treated with Oz. I think Kaine might have done the same thing with MJ's DNA instead of getting hold of a spider, or he might have just mainlined a bunch of Oz in her.

If you recall, Norman morphed into a lesser version of the Green Goblin at first. Only his head was green and he seemed weaker. After he changed back into a human, he had to shoot himself up with more OZ in order to morph again. (This was in Legacy.) I think there was a line in the Sinister Six where they mentioned that Osborn had been permanently affected by the Oz and could change at any time, which implies that he wasn't able to do that before. Can anyone confirm this for me?

In other words, MJ's transformation is only a one-time deal. Once she rampages around for a bit or burns off the Oz or whatever, she'll change back into a human and have to keep getting regular injections in order for the change to be permanent. I think in 102, she'll slap Kaine around for a bit and then change back and pass out and be back to normal, and Kaine won't get a chance to try again. At least, that's what I'm hoping. I've really been enjoying the Clone Saga so far, mainly because Spider-Woman and Tarantula are just as funny and endearing as Peter, only I'm not sick of listening to them whine for a hundred plus issues.
 
But wouldn't the fact they called Fury make them think things are under control?

Not after Fury called in the "spider-slayers" in front of them. Reed and Susan called Fury because they thought they would be helping Peter. The term "spider-slayer" seems to go against that along with "it's going to get messy".
 
Didn't have to.
Well, you sure made it like that.


And yes, this is all a dead horse beaten too much. Could everyone just STOP with this talk? It's not going anywhere, all this is doing is repeating the same mess over and over again, and its all gone off-topic.
 
Uh, maybe. But at least Millar set it up to where you knew they were up to something and could rule out deus ex. Bendis would not be getting away with the same thing. He thinks his **** doesn't smell.

The difference between the two examples was that Millar specifically set up the Union to show up. Brian and his father were discussing that their hands were tied, but Brian says "Well, there is one option we haven't considered. . .", and bam, their appearance was set up. Bendis didn't set up the FF to rush in to save him. If Bendis had a few panels of the FF discussing what Fury had said ("Spider-Slayers!? Maybe this was a bad idea. . ."), and having them decide to go help Peter, THAT would have been good plot development. This, however, was not.
 
E said:
They weren't involved in the fight, they came in and saved him.

That is not deus ex machina.

Lynx said:
Bendis didn't set up the FF to rush in to save him. If Bendis had a few panels of the FF discussing what Fury had said ("Spider-Slayers!? Maybe this was a bad idea. . .")

But he did. He just didn't need words. Just a single panel. When Fury is calling in the spider slayers, Reed and Susan are looking at each other not with the happiest of expressions. Considering before that Bendis clearly and undeniably showed they were not comfortable in calling Fury in the first place. This screamed intervention on their behalf. At least to me.
 
I think it doesn't matter and circles have been traced fifty times over by now.

The problem with this issue discussion-wise is that there's barely anything to talk about. Fury's a jerk. F4 save the day. Carnage becomes Gwen again. MJ becomes Demogoblin. Straight-foward, not much interpretation or commentary needed really.
 
It's tricky. If the FF hadn't been introduced in the story earlier on, then that definitely would have been a deus ex machina. But because they were... it's harder to define. I'm leaning on it not being a deus ex machina, but then again, I haven't read the issue, so I don't know the exact details.
 
Deus Ex Machina:

1. (in ancient Greek and Roman drama) a god introduced into a play to resolve the entanglements of the plot.
2. any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot.
UFF= "God introduced into play to resolve the entanglements of the plot"

Spidey and the whole mess= "entanglements of the plot"


It's a Deus Ex Machina.
 
UFF= "God introduced into play to resolve the entanglements of the plot"

Spidey and the whole mess= "entanglements of the plot"

It's a Deus Ex Machina.

That's non sequitur logic. I guess it wouldn't be argued that UFF's appearance was improbable.
 
It's tricky. If the FF hadn't been introduced in the story earlier on, then that definitely would have been a deus ex machina. But because they were... it's harder to define. I'm leaning on it not being a deus ex machina, but then again, I haven't read the issue, so I don't know the exact details.

The only reason it could be viewed as such is because the Fantastic Four show up in the middle of the fight. Had there been a panel or page of the ff in the Baxter Building making a discovery and heading out to stop Fury, then it would be easier to deny this d.e.m. but it should be understood that Reed had a revealation that something big was going on between the pages. I don't think it's Deus Ex Machina because the Fantastic Four were involved from the start. Poor timeing that they showed up as **** went down? Yeah. But it's very possible that they had gotten wind that Fury was about to come down on Peter.
 
My thoughts...

It was a good issue up until the last page. How is that a goblin? It looks nothing like one...

The Carnage freak out was cool. That's the Carnage I know and love.

I don't think the F4 showing up was a deus ex. Johnny considers Spider-Man his friend and after the way Reed & Sue seen Peter freakin, might have went to see how he was doing.

I will keep reading cause I do want to know what happens next.

Deadpool was still worse.
 
In old greek plays you would also see the gods discussing the events unfolding below them from the stage's balcony (many stages had two stories and the top usually represented Olympus). Towards the end of the play they would come down from their balcony and pull the hero out of a tight spot. This is where Deus Ex Machina comes from. The Gods from the Machine (the machine referencing the pully system from which the gods were lowered). It was a common plot device that worked very well, because putting the hero in a situation where he cannot escape is far more interesting dramatically... The fact that the Gods appeared earlier didn't matter, it was still characters pulling the main character out of a situation he could not get out of on his own.

Wikipedia provides a clearer definition as to its use in modern times: "Deus ex machina is a Latin phrase that is used to describe an unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot"

The fact that the Fantastic Four would play a part in the arc was practical, as they are aware of the events that were unfolding (as gods would as they looked down from on high)... The improbable, unexpected part was that they showed up at JUST THE RIGHT moment at which Peter would not be able to escape losing his powers and May was likely to not reach medical help in time (likely to die). It also seems to have prevented the conflict between the CIA and SHIELD for the time being.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS AN INAPPROPRIATE USE OF THE DEUS EX MACHINA PLOT DEVICE!

I just don't think you can deny that the fact that they were used SPECIFICALLY as a Plot Device to bail Peter out of the situation they had gotten in. This is further evidenced by the fact that their appearance did little to advance their subplot...

This IS a Deus Ex Machina. That doesnt make it a bad use of it, I just really hope that at the end of this arc we finally get to see Peter follow through on something, without SHIELD having to bag the bad guy. The last time I think Peter fully handled something on his own without interference, or a Deus ex Machina, was when he threw Carnage down the smoke stack, and confronted Dr. Conners in the Carnage storyarc....... Or when he asked Kitty out (Ultimate Spider-Man Annual #1 is still one of my absolute favorite comics in the last few years, if only because it made me really happy).

The Arc isn't over yet, and I hope we get some resolution. Or is that bashing Bendis too? Should I not expect resolution and character development in the comics I pay for? Is that me being unreasonable and hurtful, despite the fact that Bendis is one of the best character writers in comic books today?

As I said before the Deus Ex Machina point was the THIRD of three criticisms I commented on on the Bendis Boards... Bendis couldn't respond to the first two points because of the events of the rest of the Ultimate Clone Saga. I understand and respect that... I just find it absolutely hilarious that this tiny point was the one that set off such a huge debate... The only reason I pointed it out is because having two bulleted arguements is kind of weak. Three makes a point. Heh.

This is rediculous. People are associating Deus Ex Machina with bad writing, which isn't necessarily true. The bits with the Fantastic Four were some of the BEST in the issue. That doesn't make their appearance NOT a Deus Ex Machina.
 
This is rediculous. People are associating Deus Ex Machina with bad writing, which isn't necessarily true. The bits with the Fantastic Four were some of the BEST in the issue. That doesn't make their appearance NOT a Deus Ex Machina.

True, Deus Ex Machina doesn't mean bad writting.
 

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