Lost *spoilers*

[ProjectX2]

Those are fantastic.

 

[Sacred&Profane]

:roll:

Okay, since we're already accusing each other of not understanding anything, I'm going to say neither you or the writers have much understanding of animals. Gotcha. Still a mistake, but just because of misinformation and not sloppy writing I guess.

I can't recall the last time a television show depicted empirically accurate cognition in rats. Even if it did, you know as well as I do that there is an enormous gap between Rat and Human brains, which if we really, really want to go deep, would probably have an effect on how time displaced consciousness disrupts proper function.

I'm sorry, but no, they never make that clear. He isn't aware of the time travel situation? So he's just inexplicably finding himself in London instead of in a Scottish boot camp and totally fine with that?

He's dishonorably discharged at some point. Perhaps we're supposed to connect to dots, and ascertain this is due to the fugue state resulting in his abrupt vacation to London.

:roll:

I feel like your rolling eyes make up for lack of effort in backing up criticisms. How could I have been so dense? I know how I'm passing my next exam.

 

[Dancanread]

Hey, I thought MiB couldn't manifest as someone dead unless their corpse is on the island? What was up with Isabella on the ship?

 

[Planet-man]

I can't recall the last time a television show depicted empirically accurate cognition in rats. Even if it did, you know as well as I do that there is an enormous gap between Rat and Human brains, which if we really, really want to go deep, would probably have an effect on how time displaced consciousness disrupts proper function.

Animals, very much including rats, form very strong psychological bonds to people. Period. Eloise would be attached to Faraday, at least as attached as Faraday would be to Desmond, his own constant.

Even if you're completely right, that just means they shouldn't have used a rat to illustrate the point because it's too different. They don't even address it by making something up about rats not being attached in the right space-time whatever way to people. ALL they say in the episode is you need something the same between the two timepoints, and when you get it, you stop travelling. They later say a person does the trick. The rat had these things, but it still died, and they don't say why. To me, that is bad writing.

He's dishonorably discharged at some point. Perhaps we're supposed to connect to dots, and ascertain this is due to the fugue state resulting in his abrupt vacation to London.

Or perhaps you're speculating, and this is the goof I claim it is. We've got the same amount of evidence for either side since they don't try and clear it up.

I feel like your rolling eyes make up for lack of effort in backing up criticisms. How could I have been so dense? I know how I'm passing my next exam.

I'm rolling my eyes at you starting an argument by accusing me of deliberately having not understood the episode or tried to, having never rewatched it, having not paid attention when I did, etc.

I have rewatched it. I have of course tried to understand. You're accusing me of doing otherwise, based on nothing other than the fact that I disagree with you. I could've done the exact same thing when you said you liked it and it made sense, but I didn't because I'm trying not to be rude.

So....
:roll:

 

[thee great one]

I liked the nod to Jacob being the devil since he plays

Spoiler

Lucifer on Supernatural.

 

[Sacred&Profane]

Animals, very much including rats, form very strong psychological bonds to people. Period. Eloise would be attached to Faraday, at least as attached as Faraday would be to Desmond, his own constant.

Even if you're completely right, that just means they shouldn't have used a rat to illustrate the point because it's too different. They don't even address it by making something up about rats not being attached in the right space-time whatever way to people. ALL they say in the episode is you need something the same between the two timepoints, and when you get it, you stop travelling. They later say a person does the trick. The rat had these things, but it still died, and they don't say why. To me, that is bad writing.

Look: they used a rat because a rat is synonymous with scientific experiments. The size of its brain and the extent of its cognitive function isdifferent enough in regards to intensity that it died within five minutes. If you want to show the seriousness of a situation, use something with a shorter lifespan.

They did say the Rat didn't have a Constant. It was a plot device, a means of introducing the problem. Really, I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to accept. It simply did not develop any form of connection with Faraday.

Not explaining the psychological function of rats, and why this one didn't develop a connection, isn't poor writing when the objective is creating a compelling form of psuedo-science to push your character's emotional arc. To viewers not hung-up on the depiction of rats, it seems to have worked.

I'm rolling my eyes at you starting an argument by accusing me of deliberately having not understood the episode or tried to, having never rewatched it, having not paid attention when I did, etc.

I have rewatched it. I have of course tried to understand. You're accusing me of doing otherwise, based on nothing other than the fact that I disagree with you. I could've done the exact same thing when you said you liked it and it made sense, but I didn't because I'm trying not to be rude.

So....
:roll:

I wasn't basing my response on the fact that you disagree with me. I was simply pointing out that, judging by your statements, you really didn't seem to have watched the episode.

:roll:

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

Hey, I thought MiB couldn't manifest as someone dead unless their corpse is on the island? What was up with Isabella on the ship?

I assumed this was either a hallucination or the work of some other entity on the island. Possibly Jacob. Given that half of the cast has seen Walt at some point, in addition to the kid who told MiB that he's "can't kill him [presumably Jacob]", it's also probable that there are forces at work on the island independent of Jacob and MiB.

Animals, very much including rats, form very strong psychological bonds to people. Period. Eloise would be attached to Faraday, at least as attached as Faraday would be to Desmond, his own constant.

Even if you're completely right, that just means they shouldn't have used a rat to illustrate the point because it's too different. They don't even address it by making something up about rats not being attached in the right space-time whatever way to people. ALL they say in the episode is you need something the same between the two timepoints, and when you get it, you stop travelling. They later say a person does the trick. The rat had these things, but it still died, and they don't say why. To me, that is bad writing.

Not to gang up on Planet-Man or anything, but I think you're sort of nitpicking unnecessarily with this one. Animals, and by extension, rats are capable of emotional recognition, sure, but it's a pretty minor point here. Regardless of what we know (or think we know) about cognition in rats, your conundrum is easily explained away by the fact that Eloise's mind was not capable of making the abstractions necessary to designate Faraday (or anyone/anything else) as her constant.

None the less, I don't understand how this is an issue large enough to affect your enjoyment, since Eloise was just a literary device utilized to display for Desmond the potential outcome of being unstuck in time. Even if it weren't easily explained away, it's not a major element of the episode. I don't really think this is much of a "plot hole", much less outright "bad writing". If it really bothered you this much, then...that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, it just seems a bit strange to me.

Again, if the emotional core of the episode just didn't work for you, I can't really argue that, but the distinct issues with the plot that you've brought up don't quite register, that's all. It's probably better to not dwell on, anyway, since the episode aired two years ago. I really didn't mean to spark an argument this intense, I was just curious as to why you'd dislike something that's almost universally acclaimed.

 

[Friday]

Kids, play nice. I'd hate to see a Mod come in here and end up deleting what could be a fruitful discussion. No personal attacks unless its E doing the attacking,

I thought this episode was fairly meh. It wasn't bad, but like was said earlier its all things we pretty much already knew. Seeing The Man In Black operate outside of our present was interesting but I don't know if it made the half hour in the Canary islands worth it. I think I'd have rather the main story moved forward more than get backstory at this point. Unless its Flocke's flashback. I'm all about that.

And who is Gideon Stargrave and why have I never seen him on here until 2 days ago?

 

[Planet-man]

Look: they used a rat because a rat is synonymous with scientific experiments. The size of its brain and the extent of its cognitive function isdifferent enough in regards to intensity that it died within five minutes. If you want to show the seriousness of a situation, use something with a shorter lifespan.

Unless you're using it to show the seriousness of a situation which applies to it so differently than it applies to the protagonist, because that's awkward. Besides, the episode already had a way to show it's a fatal situation - Minkowski. The rat scene was about explaining the Constant, so it didn't work for me.

They did say the Rat didn't have a Constant.

1. They said the rat didn't have a Constant.
2. They said a Constant is a person you meet in the future and the past.
3. The rat had a person she met in the future in the past.
4. Ergo one of the two things they said does not make sense, aka a plot hole.

Really, I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to accept. It simply did not develop any form of connection with Faraday.

Because real-life science doesn't explain it, and the characters in the show don't try and explain it. I'm not sure why it's so easy for you to accept.

Not explaining the psychological function of rats, and why this one didn't develop a connection, isn't poor writing when the objective is creating a compelling form of psuedo-science to push your character's emotional arc. To viewers not hung-up on the depiction of rats, it seems to have worked.

And I thought the pseudo-science was just too muddled and flimsy-seeming to remotely compel me.

I wasn't basing my response on the fact that you disagree with me. I was simply pointing out that, judging by your statements, you really didn't seem to have watched the episode.

:roll:

I'm sorry, but that's total bull****. You're still being rude, uncalled for, etc. You know I've seen the episode, so you know you're basically saying my opinion is so stupid I must not have seen it. So again, knock it off.

Not to gang up on Planet-Man or anything, but I think you're sort of nitpicking unnecessarily with this one. Animals, and by extension, rats are capable of emotional recognition, sure, but it's a pretty minor point here. Regardless of what we know (or think we know) about cognition in rats, your conundrum is easily explained away by the fact that Eloise's mind was not capable of making the abstractions necessary to designate Faraday (or anyone/anything else) as her constant.

If that's the case you could just as easily say "then why was going back and forth through time stressful enough to hurt the rat in the first place, if its mind can't even notice a difference?". They didn't put it one way or the other, and the onus is on them.

But this is the problem - it's all too vague and muddled for me to get caught up in the story. It just really seemed like a series of contrived sci-fi handwaves as an excuse to get to that moment at the end, and LOST for me was never a sci-fi handwave show until that season.

None the less, I don't understand how this is an issue large enough to affect your enjoyment, since Eloise was just a literary device utilized to display for Desmond the potential outcome of being unstuck in time. Even if it weren't easily explained away, it's not a major element of the episode. I don't really think this is much of a "plot hole", much less outright "bad writing". If it really bothered you this much, then...that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, it just seems a bit strange to me.

I find it bad writing because they didn't just use it as an example of "if this goes on long enough, you die", they used it to help illustrate the whole concept, when the concept ends up barely applying to it. You can definitely make it work if you jump to conclusions or speculate, but in this case, I don't think anyone should've had to.

It's probably better to not dwell on, anyway, since the episode aired two years ago. I really didn't mean to spark an argument this intense, I was just curious as to why you'd dislike something that's almost universally acclaimed.

As much as I hate going back to what's pretty much my least-favourite episode of a show I otherwise love, I'm okay with discussing as long as you are.

 

[Captain Canuck]

- I don't care how much we'd already figured out, it was extremely satisfying to see the whole Black Rock crash, with Richard on board, and it taking out the statue was an amazing, out-of-nowhere moment that I loved. Brilliant. I have no trouble believing it could do that. It wasn't old at the time, it's huge, ships like that were built to be extremely hardy, and it was thrown by a tidal wave.

i kind of assumed the statue was hollow, like a chimney, since when they go inside at the end of season five, you can see the sky.

- The island must have been in the Atlantic during 1867, as Richard was being transported from the Canary Islands to the New World? Hope we get to find out why it moved.

I remember some one saying at some point (I think maybe when Charles Widmore bought Magnus Hanso's ship log at the auction) that the black rock was last seen off the coast of Madigascar. So maybe they sailed around the cape of good hope and went the long way? that would be a long trip, though. It's also possible that jacob did something tricky to get them there.

I think that we can be reasonably sure at this point that Jack will be Jacob's replacement. One of my friends suggested that season 6 will end with Jack (as Jacob) and Locke (as the Man-in-black) sitting on the beach, drawing an obvious parallel to the season 5 finale. It's a good idea (and somewhat probable), and, at the very least, the idea of these two fulfilling these roles will probably play out in some way or another.

that's awesome! maybe they'll be playing backgammon.

I think that the Flash-Sideways universe being utilized to showcase the inherent necessity of Jacob and the island keeping Smokey at bay. Initially, it may seem that the majority of the characters have a 'better' life off-island, but it's contrary to what they were meant to do. That is, uh, safeguard a magical island that contains the physical personification of evil. Their lives in the Flash-Sidewasy-verse will probably be utterly ruined by the Man in Black's machinations (whatever they are). But for that to happen effectively, we have to see them being genuinely happy first, so that our expectations can be properly subverted. I'd imagine that's what the first half of season 6 has been for, hence the startling lack of development/explanation.

wow, that makes a lot of sense. But then, if Jacob doesn't like to interfere, why did he influence everyone's life to bring them to the island?

Hey, I thought MiB couldn't manifest as someone dead unless their corpse is on the island? What was up with Isabella on the ship?

well, he scanned Richard's mind the same way he did Mr Eko's before Yemi started showing up (but Yemi's corpse was on the island). He also became Kate's horse (i think), which didn't die on the island. And I'm pretty sure he appeared to both Shannon and Locke as Walt. Anyway, he clearly took Isabella's form after scanning Richard's mind, so I guess he can take the form of people who died off island.

A few things I noticed or someone else mentioned. What stops the smoke monster? three things right? ash circles, sonar fences, and banyan trees (those shrubs the losties always hide in and are safe). In Locke form, the ashes still stop him (until Dogen died at least) so I would have assumed the other things stopped him too. But last ep, after Claire tries to kill Kate, Kate goes and cries in the banyan trees and Smocke comes in and talks to her.

Also...was that the same knife that Dogen had given to Sayid to kill Smocke with? It was certainly the same speech about how to kill him.

I'm wondering about the mythology behind the man in black and his relation to Jacob. If Jacob can be replaced, I'm wondering if maybe he isn't a primal force of good; the yin to MiB yang, but just a man who was chosen and given powers as a guardian of the MiB. Also, MiB told Richard that "the devil"/Jacob had betrayed him and taken his body.
And the temple has a chamber with a cerberus vent and this picture:

and there is a water drain under darma ville that can summon him, so it would stand to reason that at some point the inhabitants of the island built the temple and much of the architecture on the island for MiB's benefit. So maybe, MiB once was free, but then was tricked into being confined to the island, he was made the ruler of the island and given the ability to be smokey, which he was okay with it at first, but then found that he couldn't leave and that his ability to manifest as himself was somehow taken away.

So questions left to answer:
what happened between Ben and Widmore?
what's the deal with Walt and Aaron (and maybe ji Yoen)?
who are the MiB and Jacob?
where's Desmond?
who are Adam and Eve?
what is going to happen?

And I think that's pretty much it.
(except for why was Libby in the mental institute?)

oh, and by the way, Richard's flashback (i thought Damon and Carleton said we weren't going to be getting any more of those?) was from 1867. You know what happened that year?
Queen Victoria granted Canada it's sovereignty.

 

[ProjectX2]

Lost's final episode has a title -

Spoiler

The End

.

And that's all I want to know.

 

[robje]

i oh, and by the way, Richard's flashbackwas from 1867.
You know what happened that year?
Queen Victoria granted Canada it's sovereignty.

Good God! It all makes sense now!

 

[Random]

Lost's final episode has a title -

Spoiler

The End

.

And that's all I want to know.

I was hope the last title would be simple like that

Also Nestor Carbonell talks about reading the final script

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

As much as I hate going back to what's pretty much my least-favourite episode of a show I otherwise love, I'm okay with discussing as long as you are.

Yeah, well, at this point we can either have a comprehensive discussion about the integration of 'harder' Sci Fi into lost post-Season 3, or just drop it. Given some of the reactions that a critique of a single episode has illicited, it's probably best to do the latter.

that's awesome! maybe they'll be playing backgammon.

Good idea. That'd actually be a nice touch.

wow, that makes a lot of sense. But then, if Jacob doesn't like to interfere, why did he influence everyone's life to bring them to the island?

Well, remember, Jacob wants to prove that when left alone, humans have the potential to make the right choice. He doesn't want to directly influence these choices. However, he will 'interfere' (so to speak) in that he'll bring them to the island so that he can provide an isolated, contained environment for his control group (because, really, this is an experiment). His rather minimalist interventionism is taken to the logical extreme with Ben. He simply informs him that he has a choice, and then lets Ben do whatever he will. In this instance, of course, Mr. Linus makes what Jacob would probably designate as the "wrong" decision.

well, he scanned Richard's mind the same way he did Mr Eko's before Yemi started showing up (but Yemi's corpse was on the island). He also became Kate's horse (i think), which didn't die on the island. And I'm pretty sure he appeared to both Shannon and Locke as Walt. Anyway, he clearly took Isabella's form after scanning Richard's mind, so I guess he can take the form of people who died off island.

We don't really have any indication that Isabella was MiB. It's probably best to work operate under the assumption that she was something else entirely and MiB just exploited that to manipulate Richard. We can be reasonably sure that Yemi was MiB since the black smoke killed Mr. Eko directly after his appearance, but Kate's horse, Walt and Isabella seem to be some other force of the island at work.

I'm wondering about the mythology behind the man in black and his relation to Jacob. If Jacob can be replaced, I'm wondering if maybe he isn't a primal force of good; the yin to MiB yang, but just a man who was chosen and given powers as a guardian of the MiB. Also, MiB told Richard that "the devil"/Jacob had betrayed him and taken his body.

and there is a water drain under darma ville that can summon him, so it would stand to reason that at some point the inhabitants of the island built the temple and much of the architecture on the island for MiB's benefit. So maybe, MiB once was free, but then was tricked into being confined to the island, he was made the ruler of the island and given the ability to be smokey, which he was okay with it at first, but then found that he couldn't leave and that his ability to manifest as himself was somehow taken away.

I think you're absolutely correct in that Jacob wasn't the first person to have the job of 'magical island protector', and he indicates himself that he won't be the last (both in the existence of the candidates, and explicitly in the most recent episode).

Jacob: "Even if you did [kill me], someone else would just take my place."

MiB: "Then I'd kill them too."

It's pretty clear that there's a line of succession that Jacob is merely a single instance of.

Also, given that Smokey's primary objective is that he wants to go home, it's safe to assume that he hasn't always resided on the island. As for the rest? We can really only speculate at this point. It occurred to me last night that the Flash-Sideways-Verse might be the 'home' that MiB is so eager to return to, but the more I think about it the less sense that makes.

...Though, it might be kind of cool.

So questions left to answer:

I have theories for almost all of these, actually...

what happened between Ben and Widmore?

I'm willing to bet the Ben and Widmore conflict will be part of the escalation that kills (at least most of) the remaining supporting cast. You know, assuming that this happens. I'm not sure how it'll play out yet, but we've seen how much bad blood there is here, and I can't imagine it'll be pleasant.

what's the deal with Walt and Aaron (and maybe ji Yoen)?

It seems to me that the island has a problem of some sort with new life that's conceived on the island, relative to how "new" it technically is. Pregnant women die. Young people seem to be significantly affected (Aaron, Walt and possibly Ji Yoen being the primary examples). The people resurrected by Dogan's Lazarus pit thing are apparently overcome with evil. Or craziness. Or something.

where's Desmond?

He's probably what's behind the secret door in Widmore's submarine that Sawyer saw in 'Recon'. I'd really like a scene where he comes back to the island, with the entire established social hierarchy in shambles (not to mention half of the characters having gone completely nuts) and just has that abject look of disappointment that Henry Ian Cusick does so well.

who are Adam and Eve?

Probably Rose and Bernard.

Lost's final episode has a title -

Spoiler

The End

.

And that's all I want to know.

Yeah, I read this on another site. It is an acceptable title for a final episode, I suppose. Then again, I know the names for all of the episodes remaining in season 6 (thanks to a friend spoiling them for me...), so I was basically expecting something like this.

 

[Captain Canuck]

We don't really have any indication that Isabella was MiB. It's probably best to work operate under the assumption that she was something else entirely and MiB just exploited that to manipulate Richard. We can be reasonably sure that Yemi was MiB since the black smoke killed Mr. Eko directly after his appearance, but Kate's horse, Walt and Isabella seem to be some other force of the island at work.

We have just as much indication that MiB was impersonating her on the black rock as we do that he has impersonated Yemi or anyone else (except Locke). I'm not sure about the horse or Walt, but it seemed absolutely clear to me that Isabella on the back rock was actually MiB

I think you're absolutely correct in that Jacob wasn't the first person to have the job of 'magical island protector', and he indicates himself that he won't be the last (both in the existence of the candidates, and explicitly in the most recent episode).

Jacob: "Even if you did [kill me], someone else would just take my place."

MiB: "Then I'd kill them too."

It's pretty clear that there's a line of succession that Jacob is merely a single instance of.

actually, i think Jacob is the first one. Just based on what they've said about each other, it seems like they knew each other before. I'm just not sure that he is a god or force of nature or whatever. But his experiments with people sort of point me the other way.

It seems to me that the island has a problem of some sort with new life that's conceived on the island, relative to how "new" it technically is. Pregnant women die. Young people seem to be significantly affected (Aaron, Walt and possibly Ji Yoen being the primary examples). The people resurrected by Dogan's Lazarus pit thing are apparently overcome with evil. Or craziness. Or something.

okay, the babies dying has to have something to do with Taweret. Only one baby we know of has been born on the island and survived. Ethan Rom/Goodspeed. Why did he and his mother live? Because his mom (Amy) wore an Ahnk necklace all the time, just like Taweret holds (Ahnks are the symbol for eternal life). In ancient Egyptian mythology Taweret was the goddess/demon fertility deity that protected women who were pregnant and giving birth. In the myth she was related to the god Set (some sources say mother, some say concubine or wife). Set was the god of chaos and uncertainty who was often depicted as being strong and frightening, and had influence over the dead as well. In the myth, Set killed his brother, Osiris and Taweret imprisoned him in "the great bear" constellation, which was in the North sky (lift your eyes and look north on Eko's stick) and represented death and darkness. She imprisoned him to protect Osiris' wife Isis and her baby Horus.

But that doesn't explain anything with Walt, Aaron, or Ji Yeon.

Probably Rose and Bernard.

Probably, especially since there was the anagram clue in the brainwashing video Carl had to watch. But I wonder if maybe it's actually something that ties in with the mythology part. Maybe it's Osiris and Isis or something like that.

 

[Random]

$900,000 for a 30-second ad in the final episode of Lost

Everytime I see a number like that for an ad I just think "Man I wish I could blow that much money and make the most stupid thing of an add ever

 

[Dancanread]

So, this was alright. Good to see Desmond again.

But the real story of this episode for me was how much I want to strangle whoever at ABC is responsible for slapping that obnoxiously distracting red "V" with the countdown clock in the corner. We know your horrible show is coming back, and no, it will not replace Lost no matter how much you want it to.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I missed the first few minutes again because of a meeting. But I think all I missed was Jin being told that MiB needs all the candidates to come with him in order to leave. I started watching when Jin told the hotel clerk that they weren't married and needed a separate room. Did I miss anything significant before that?

It seems that Widmore is good after all, which makes me think that he's really not. Or at least that his conflict with Ben will screw things up for team Jacob.

I like that the pieces are in place and the story is moving again!

 

[Random]

So, this was alright. Good to see Desmond again.

But the real story of this episode for me was how much I want to strangle whoever at ABC is responsible for slapping that obnoxiously distracting red "V" with the countdown clock in the corner. We know your horrible show is coming back, and no, it will not replace Lost no matter how much you want it to.

Agreed, I knew that was going to be a problem the moment I saw it. Also SciFi channel was playing the original V for like 24 hours. So it's like, whats the point when I could just see how the original ends

I missed the first few minutes again because of a meeting. But I think all I missed was Jin being told that MiB needs all the candidates to come with him in order to leave. I started watching when Jin told the hotel clerk that they weren't married and needed a separate room. Did I miss anything significant before that?

It seems that Widmore is good after all, which makes me think that he's really not. Or at least that his conflict with Ben will screw things up for team Jacob.

I like that the pieces are in place and the story is moving again!

Other than the airport saying they need to confiscate the $20,000 an maybe Sayid saying he feels nothing and Widmore's people taking Jin

I think Widmore believes he is good but his own greed and issues keep that from being true.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Other than the airport saying they need to confiscate the $20,000

okay

and maybe Sayid saying he feels nothing and Widmore's people taking Jin

no, i saw that part

I think Widmore believes he is good but his own greed and issues keep that from being true.

interesting...