Batman and Robin (Morrison/various) discussion
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ProjectX2
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http://au.comics.ign.com/articles/106/1063765p1.html
Grant Morrison talks about future Batman and Robin plans and mentions a Season 2!
Grant Morrison talks about future Batman and Robin plans and mentions a Season 2!
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
So, in the last issue, things took a really weird turn.
Huh.
The Batman corpse that's being resurrected is really a euthanized Batman clone made by Darkseid and apparently used to prove that Batman is dead when he really isn't. And he's been resurrected in a Lazarus Pit and now he's going to kill Robin, who's in a wheelchair. Also, Batwoman died so they can bring her back to life too.
Huh.
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
I'm calling it right now.
and (this one may be obvious)
Oberon Sexton, AKA the Gravedigger, is really Bruce Wayne
The disgraced demon-worshipping Thomas Wayne from the Puritan era is Simon Hurt/The Devil/Thomas Wayne in the present
Ultimate Houde
UC's Resident Genetic Recombinator
This is the first time I've seen Oberon Sexton, I really haven't read much of this series though, and when I read it, I thought in my head that he really is who you think he is.
Seems alittle too easy to me.
Seems alittle too easy to me.
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
The plot at this point has gone past any kind of ridiculous and has become every kind of awesome. Just explaining it all to my little brother the other day gave me goosebumps.
ProjectX2
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Dr.Strangefate
He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Hmm... Interesting.
thee great one
Master of TOG-fu.
The new issue was ridiculously awesome.
Damien is obviously growing to respect Dick.
Damien is obviously growing to respect Dick.
Gideon Stargrave
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Reading through this thread, it looks like no one's really discussing the villains, which I think warrant observation. It also ties very nicely into the "Who the **** is Oberon Sexton" line of inquiry. Rather than marking this with spoiler tags, it's probably better for me to just say that this will contain spoilers for anyone who hasn't read every Grant Morrison story ever.
There have been a number of insane annotators and bloggers who have gone into far more detail than I am capable of with the interconnectedness and detail of Morrison's stories at DC. I have some ideas, but they aren't really as comprehensive as certain other fans. Given that Batman and Robin is the extension of Morrison's work on Batman and Final Crisis, which tie directly into his JLA and Seven Soldiers, utilizing ideas established in Animal Man and Batman: Gothic, there is no such thing as a self contained story in this man's work. As such, I'm still speculating on the significance of Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth. But more on that later.
So far in Batman and Robin we've seen Professor Pyg, Jason Todd/The Red Hood, Flamingo, one of Darkseid's Batman soldiers from Final Crisis, hints villainy in the Wayne line, Talia Al Ghul and the enigmatic Domino killer, who may or may not be related to one of the characters listed above. It also looks like we're going to be seeing a bit of Doctor Hurt (possibly with the remaining Club of Villains in tow), and there's still the perpetual question of Oberon Sexton's alignment. But Morrison tends to like clear cut heroes and villains with little shades of gray, so it's safe to assume that he's one or the other. Of course, it's a Batman story, so there's that intrinsic question in discussing the antagonists; what does the Joker have to do with this?
In the Joker prose story from early on in his Batman run, and during RIP, Morrison rewrote the Joker into a deranged lunatic. And it *was* a rewriting, even if 'deranged lunatic' is the only inherently necessary feature of the Joker's many incarnations, it's now what defines him entirely. In RIP he was knocked off of a bridge by Damien and hasn't been seen since. We think. Similarly, Talia Al Ghul is now more of a villain than ever; what, with her eugenics experiments and Ninja Man-Bats. If I'm right, then these retools are linked and given what we know about the Domino killer and the resurgence of Talia's manipulations, I just think I might be.
But allow me to explain.
Take a close look at all of the panels closely involving Oberon Sexton's investigations into the Domino killings across the globe. You'll notice that most of them are former members of Doctor Hurt's Black Glove. The first of them is the mustached fat guy (who probably had a name that I'm forgetting) from RIP; he was the first Black Glove member we saw killed, with his neck snapped by the Joker. He is also the first on Oberon Sexton's list. Next we have Jezebel Jet, killed by Talia's Ninja Man-Bats at the very end of RIP. If you look at Oberon's bulletin board at the beginning B&R#10, he has an issue of Time Magazine with Jezebel on the cover pinned to it, marking the second recorded Domino killing.
So, what does this mean? Well, both the people Talia and the Joker have killed are listed as being victims of the Domino killer. Talia also has a brainwashed Damien attacking Dick Grayson. The most obvious conclusion to draw is that Talia found the Joker after Damien ran him off of a bridge, and repurposed him as her executioner, going after the remaining Black Glove members and villains in Gotham who could threaten her interests in some way. I'm willing to bet that the brainwashing techniques she used on Damien and The Joker will be somehow similar.
This also lends credibility to the idea that Bruce Wayne is Oberon Sexton. If we assume that the Domino Killer is The Joker having his strings pulled by Talia Al Ghul, then it would make a lot of sense for Bruce to be tracking down his greatest enemies in a new disguise, which is what Oberon seems to be doing. There's probably a significance to his name, too, with "Oberon" being the legendary king of the fairies in Medieval mythology and, well, ten minutes researching the word/name "Sexton" brings up all sorts of interesting results. And it's Grant Morrison. Whether you like him or not, he's got a thing for symbolism, and nothing is in his comics by accident.
Another thing about Grant Morrison is that he loves the Silver Age and the Adam West TV show. I'm thinking that what he's doing is putting Batman in a series of more and more elaborate traps to escape from, as was typical of older incarnations of the character. Of course, this is the modern age, so rather than having Batman and Robin tied to an underwater sinking anvil, the traps will be more existential. First, we have the Black Glove crippling him psychologically and burying him alive. And in a display of over-preparedness rivaling Bat-Shark-Repellent-Spray, Batman had created a back-up personality just in case anyone would ever attack his mind. Next, he was imprisoned by Darkseid's minions in an attempt to harness his life's tragedy to drive an army of clones, which Bruce realized and subsequently utilized his memories instead to destroy the army. You know, because he's Batman. And now, with this trend in escalation, he's been unstuck in time, a la Billy Pilgrim. So, did Batman escape "The Death That Is Life" (like Mister Miracle did before him in Seven Soldiers) and contrive a new identity to combat his old enemies? It certainly seems likely to me, although I've read other theories about Sexton's identity that are credible.
Naturally, the idea of Bruce's consciousness time traveling ties into this sticky issue with the Wayne ancestry and Doctor Hurt. Is Hurt Thomas Wayne? Is he one of the *other* Thomas Waynes (or otherwise-named Wayne ancestors)? Is he the literal devil? A metaphorical devil? Mangrove Pierce, like Bruce thought? Is he Bruce himself, either as a manifestation of his mental breakdown during RIP, or a result of his time travel shenanigans? Well, all of these ideas have various elements in the story that qualify them. What seems likely to me, however, will only make sense if you read Batman: Gothic, an old Morrison story. Morrison's old comics have foreshadowed his contemporary story arcs before, and this one dealt with the summoning a Satanic figure. Now, we're told that the "Black sheep" of the Wayne family used the dark arts to resurrect a Bat-demon of some sort. My theory is that this was the demonic Doctor Hurt, a man perpetually plaguing Bruce's life. If this is correct, I think it's safe to assume that Bruce will witness (and likely try unsuccessfully to prevent) the raising of Doc Hurt during his travels through time, and Hurt himself will be a reoccurring antagonist for Bruce during the "Return of Bruce Wayne" story arc, confronting him in every time period he lives through.
Okay, so I think I've just about covered my bases. What do you guys think?
There have been a number of insane annotators and bloggers who have gone into far more detail than I am capable of with the interconnectedness and detail of Morrison's stories at DC. I have some ideas, but they aren't really as comprehensive as certain other fans. Given that Batman and Robin is the extension of Morrison's work on Batman and Final Crisis, which tie directly into his JLA and Seven Soldiers, utilizing ideas established in Animal Man and Batman: Gothic, there is no such thing as a self contained story in this man's work. As such, I'm still speculating on the significance of Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth. But more on that later.
So far in Batman and Robin we've seen Professor Pyg, Jason Todd/The Red Hood, Flamingo, one of Darkseid's Batman soldiers from Final Crisis, hints villainy in the Wayne line, Talia Al Ghul and the enigmatic Domino killer, who may or may not be related to one of the characters listed above. It also looks like we're going to be seeing a bit of Doctor Hurt (possibly with the remaining Club of Villains in tow), and there's still the perpetual question of Oberon Sexton's alignment. But Morrison tends to like clear cut heroes and villains with little shades of gray, so it's safe to assume that he's one or the other. Of course, it's a Batman story, so there's that intrinsic question in discussing the antagonists; what does the Joker have to do with this?
In the Joker prose story from early on in his Batman run, and during RIP, Morrison rewrote the Joker into a deranged lunatic. And it *was* a rewriting, even if 'deranged lunatic' is the only inherently necessary feature of the Joker's many incarnations, it's now what defines him entirely. In RIP he was knocked off of a bridge by Damien and hasn't been seen since. We think. Similarly, Talia Al Ghul is now more of a villain than ever; what, with her eugenics experiments and Ninja Man-Bats. If I'm right, then these retools are linked and given what we know about the Domino killer and the resurgence of Talia's manipulations, I just think I might be.
But allow me to explain.
Take a close look at all of the panels closely involving Oberon Sexton's investigations into the Domino killings across the globe. You'll notice that most of them are former members of Doctor Hurt's Black Glove. The first of them is the mustached fat guy (who probably had a name that I'm forgetting) from RIP; he was the first Black Glove member we saw killed, with his neck snapped by the Joker. He is also the first on Oberon Sexton's list. Next we have Jezebel Jet, killed by Talia's Ninja Man-Bats at the very end of RIP. If you look at Oberon's bulletin board at the beginning B&R#10, he has an issue of Time Magazine with Jezebel on the cover pinned to it, marking the second recorded Domino killing.
So, what does this mean? Well, both the people Talia and the Joker have killed are listed as being victims of the Domino killer. Talia also has a brainwashed Damien attacking Dick Grayson. The most obvious conclusion to draw is that Talia found the Joker after Damien ran him off of a bridge, and repurposed him as her executioner, going after the remaining Black Glove members and villains in Gotham who could threaten her interests in some way. I'm willing to bet that the brainwashing techniques she used on Damien and The Joker will be somehow similar.
This also lends credibility to the idea that Bruce Wayne is Oberon Sexton. If we assume that the Domino Killer is The Joker having his strings pulled by Talia Al Ghul, then it would make a lot of sense for Bruce to be tracking down his greatest enemies in a new disguise, which is what Oberon seems to be doing. There's probably a significance to his name, too, with "Oberon" being the legendary king of the fairies in Medieval mythology and, well, ten minutes researching the word/name "Sexton" brings up all sorts of interesting results. And it's Grant Morrison. Whether you like him or not, he's got a thing for symbolism, and nothing is in his comics by accident.
Another thing about Grant Morrison is that he loves the Silver Age and the Adam West TV show. I'm thinking that what he's doing is putting Batman in a series of more and more elaborate traps to escape from, as was typical of older incarnations of the character. Of course, this is the modern age, so rather than having Batman and Robin tied to an underwater sinking anvil, the traps will be more existential. First, we have the Black Glove crippling him psychologically and burying him alive. And in a display of over-preparedness rivaling Bat-Shark-Repellent-Spray, Batman had created a back-up personality just in case anyone would ever attack his mind. Next, he was imprisoned by Darkseid's minions in an attempt to harness his life's tragedy to drive an army of clones, which Bruce realized and subsequently utilized his memories instead to destroy the army. You know, because he's Batman. And now, with this trend in escalation, he's been unstuck in time, a la Billy Pilgrim. So, did Batman escape "The Death That Is Life" (like Mister Miracle did before him in Seven Soldiers) and contrive a new identity to combat his old enemies? It certainly seems likely to me, although I've read other theories about Sexton's identity that are credible.
Naturally, the idea of Bruce's consciousness time traveling ties into this sticky issue with the Wayne ancestry and Doctor Hurt. Is Hurt Thomas Wayne? Is he one of the *other* Thomas Waynes (or otherwise-named Wayne ancestors)? Is he the literal devil? A metaphorical devil? Mangrove Pierce, like Bruce thought? Is he Bruce himself, either as a manifestation of his mental breakdown during RIP, or a result of his time travel shenanigans? Well, all of these ideas have various elements in the story that qualify them. What seems likely to me, however, will only make sense if you read Batman: Gothic, an old Morrison story. Morrison's old comics have foreshadowed his contemporary story arcs before, and this one dealt with the summoning a Satanic figure. Now, we're told that the "Black sheep" of the Wayne family used the dark arts to resurrect a Bat-demon of some sort. My theory is that this was the demonic Doctor Hurt, a man perpetually plaguing Bruce's life. If this is correct, I think it's safe to assume that Bruce will witness (and likely try unsuccessfully to prevent) the raising of Doc Hurt during his travels through time, and Hurt himself will be a reoccurring antagonist for Bruce during the "Return of Bruce Wayne" story arc, confronting him in every time period he lives through.
Okay, so I think I've just about covered my bases. What do you guys think?
Dr.Strangefate
He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
I like the idea of Hurt's origins and machinations being explored in The Return of Bruce Wayne... It does seem to make sense that whatever creature was summoned up from the deep would turn out to be this demonic figure that dominated the first step of Morrison's Bat-Epic. It's held up that the pilgrim era witchhunter batman is on the cover of #2 of the Return of Bruce Wayne. This way the first issue would introduce the situation that he's in, and the second would bring in the villain... The jokeresque figure on the cover of #2 has me intrigued... Is it just going to be that the very existence of a Batman pulls a Joker into existence? It does seem likely that we'll see the introduction of Hurt during these stories.
I'm also intrigued by the idea of the Joker having become the executioner for Talia Al Ghul... This could be the first few steps towards making her every bit of the adversary to Batman her father was... There's also the possibility that he is, in fact, Oberon Sexton as many internetting fiends have tended to suggest. Both could be true... He could be fabricating the existence of the Domino Killer as a cover for the actions of his partner, Talia... But it would seem that Sexton has been around long enough to have a reputation... Perhaps his reputation in Gotham began as a detective working on the murder of the Waynes... Like the pulp detective we see on the cover of Return #5. Bruce just seems almost too obvious an answer at this point.
The other thing that occurred to me as a possibility after thinking on what life with Bruce Wayne back in the main DCU is going to be like is for them to finally go the way of The Flash... Why can't Dick/Damien and Bruce/Tim work as two pairs of Batman and Robin? It would lead to some interesting tension. I'd imagine that Dick would stick to the team superheroics, teaching Damien how to save the world at large on a day-to-day basis, while Bruce and Tim keep Gotham safe. It would be an interesting solution to the problem that's going to rise quickly after the return.
I'm also intrigued by the idea of the Joker having become the executioner for Talia Al Ghul... This could be the first few steps towards making her every bit of the adversary to Batman her father was... There's also the possibility that he is, in fact, Oberon Sexton as many internetting fiends have tended to suggest. Both could be true... He could be fabricating the existence of the Domino Killer as a cover for the actions of his partner, Talia... But it would seem that Sexton has been around long enough to have a reputation... Perhaps his reputation in Gotham began as a detective working on the murder of the Waynes... Like the pulp detective we see on the cover of Return #5. Bruce just seems almost too obvious an answer at this point.
The other thing that occurred to me as a possibility after thinking on what life with Bruce Wayne back in the main DCU is going to be like is for them to finally go the way of The Flash... Why can't Dick/Damien and Bruce/Tim work as two pairs of Batman and Robin? It would lead to some interesting tension. I'd imagine that Dick would stick to the team superheroics, teaching Damien how to save the world at large on a day-to-day basis, while Bruce and Tim keep Gotham safe. It would be an interesting solution to the problem that's going to rise quickly after the return.
Gideon Stargrave
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I agreed with you initially that Bruce was "too obvious", but I'm starting to lean toward him as Oberon Sexton. I don't really think that Morrison is going for a "reveal" here in the traditional sense; he's not trying to surprise you or subvert your expectations. Just maintaining a bit of mystery before unveiling an element that fits nicely into his jigsaw-puzzle of a plot.
And I sincerely doubt that DC's editorial staff would allow for there to be multiple characters wearing a Batman costume at once. Multiple Flashes? Yes. Hundreds of thousands of Kryptonians? Sure. Wonder Woman flying around in love-powered pink Witchblade armor? Well, feminism has never exactly been a chief concern of this industry. But Batman is DC's golden goose. It's why Bruce is returning ahead of schedule, and I'm willing to bet it's why Dick will step down. In fact, in issue #10, Dick explicitly says that if Bruce comes back, he and Damien won't be Batman and Robin anymore. I like the idea of Bruce and Dick fulfilling the different roles that Batman has in the DCU (since it's pretty inconceivable for one man to perform all of these functions), but, again, I just sort of doubt it practically.
And I sincerely doubt that DC's editorial staff would allow for there to be multiple characters wearing a Batman costume at once. Multiple Flashes? Yes. Hundreds of thousands of Kryptonians? Sure. Wonder Woman flying around in love-powered pink Witchblade armor? Well, feminism has never exactly been a chief concern of this industry. But Batman is DC's golden goose. It's why Bruce is returning ahead of schedule, and I'm willing to bet it's why Dick will step down. In fact, in issue #10, Dick explicitly says that if Bruce comes back, he and Damien won't be Batman and Robin anymore. I like the idea of Bruce and Dick fulfilling the different roles that Batman has in the DCU (since it's pretty inconceivable for one man to perform all of these functions), but, again, I just sort of doubt it practically.
ProjectX2
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Deathstroke controlling Damien is terrifying.
Gideon Stargrave
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So, I think issue #11 confirms that I'm entirely right about everything. Or, at the very least, things seem to be moving in the direction I thought they would. Cool.
I just finished reading Batman Reborn (issues 1-6) and freaking loved it. All the little Morrison-isms backed by Frank Quitely's art - this is the perfect comic.
In the back Morrison talks about how he wanted this book to feel different than other Batman books and boy howdy does it...I love how Batman almost feels like the sidekick - not in the field, but when they are talking and planning. Damien is an awesome character and I could read him in this book forever.
The only thing I could come even close to complaining about is the artist change but it's only because I love Frank Quitely's work and it fits perfectly with Grant Morrison's writing for some reason that I can't even identify.
10/10
In the back Morrison talks about how he wanted this book to feel different than other Batman books and boy howdy does it...I love how Batman almost feels like the sidekick - not in the field, but when they are talking and planning. Damien is an awesome character and I could read him in this book forever.
The only thing I could come even close to complaining about is the artist change but it's only because I love Frank Quitely's work and it fits perfectly with Grant Morrison's writing for some reason that I can't even identify.
10/10
ProjectX2
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Oberon Sexton is The Joker!
I loved the Damian stuff in this issue. He is becoming a great character.
The Return of Bruce Wayne is going to be nuts.
I loved the Damian stuff in this issue. He is becoming a great character.
The Return of Bruce Wayne is going to be nuts.
Langsta
Well-Known Member
Awesome. Wish I hadn't read that spoiler though.
I wanted to see Quitely draw the Joker though.....
YES.
Nuts.
Going to try and track this down now.
Gideon Stargrave
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Oberon Sexton. Oberon. King of the fairies. Hurm.
Okay, so I was wrong about him being a time-displaced Bruce Wayne. It looks like I got all of the stuff about the domino killings and (hopefully) Doctor Hurt/El Penitente correct, so here's to that.
Loved the issue, though. This series continues to impress me.
Okay, so I was wrong about him being a time-displaced Bruce Wayne. It looks like I got all of the stuff about the domino killings and (hopefully) Doctor Hurt/El Penitente correct, so here's to that.
Loved the issue, though. This series continues to impress me.
