Batman and Robin (Morrison/various) discussion

Langsta said:
I wanted to see Quitely draw the Joker though.....:(
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Here you go:

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Loved the last issue, although I think the 'join-the-dots' bat signal was even cooler than Oberon Sexton's identity. I've really been digging this latest three-parter, I must say.

Anyone else a little bit underwhelmed by the recent covers, though? #12's was horrible and completely unrepresentative of Quitely's otherwise stellar work.
 
While I'm really uninterested in THE RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE (is there any qualitative difference between Grayson's Batman and Wayne's? I think not - Damien is a terrific take on Robin, but Grayson's Batman is really not that different, I keep forgetting he's Grayson) and while I felt the previous arc with the Lazarus pit was rather poop, and while I've not been thrilled by this latest arc, #12 had a terrific ending.

While Sexton being the Joker is the only person he could be once you go, "It's not Bruce Wayne", in that it's rather obvious that it has to be him to hold any weight (and it doesn't make sense) I don't really care because of the way Batman worked it out: the killings are JOKES. That is a brilliant little bit of deduction I had missed and it's a terrific pay off.

Another way to put it: I'm not enjoying Morrison's style of late (I'm not hating it, though, just not really digging it), I think what he's done, the story, is a terrific idea. Really loved the twist, and it's why I read Batman. Great reveal because I like it despite it not making sense, and despite that it's the Joker again, and that it's really kinda pointless. It's all stupid and gratuitous but I don't care because it's just damn cool.
 
Bass said:
While I'm really uninterested in THE RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE (is there any qualitative difference between Grayson's Batman and Wayne's? I think not - Damien is a terrific take on Robin, but Grayson's Batman is really not that different, I keep forgetting he's Grayson) and while I felt the previous arc with the Lazarus pit was rather poop, and while I've not been thrilled by this latest arc, #12 had a terrific ending.

While Sexton being the Joker is the only person he could be once you go, "It's not Bruce Wayne", in that it's rather obvious that it has to be him to hold any weight (and it doesn't make sense) I don't really care because of the way Batman worked it out: the killings are JOKES. That is a brilliant little bit of deduction I had missed and it's a terrific pay off.

Another way to put it: I'm not enjoying Morrison's style of late (I'm not hating it, though, just not really digging it), I think what he's done, the story, is a terrific idea. Really loved the twist, and it's why I read Batman. Great reveal because I like it despite it not making sense, and despite that it's the Joker again, and that it's really kinda pointless. It's all stupid and gratuitous but I don't care because it's just damn cool.
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Everything that Morrison's written at DC for the past few years makes complete sense if you bother to read it all. It's nonlinear, strange and roundabout, but definitely entirely sensible. It's become apparent that The Joker was found by Talia after Damien knocked him off of that bridge in Batman RIP, was repurposed as the executioner she mentioned in her crusade against the Black Glove. This is confirmed by the killings they've both committed against the organization being listed in tandem with (what have been revealed as The Joker/Oberon's) Domino killings. It's possible that Talia doesn't play into the equation, and that Talia's murder of Jezebel being listed along the others was just a red herring via The Joker's characteristic misdirection, but given how much emphasis there's been on her neural control mechanisms, I kinda doubt it. Especially given The Joker's new personality (though, again, The Joker reinventing himself is a shtick Morrison commonly attributes to him). Anyway, it seems that Doctor Hurt himself has been tracking The Joker down, hence the dummy Sexton identity. This may or may not tie into the subplot with the Barbatos entity.

And while Dick Grayson's just been treated as Bruce Wayne-lite in most of the other Bat books on the stands, I think that Morrison's added enough good character moments to make his presence noteworthy in B&R. You have this neurotic, insecure and overall friendly Batman, almost in line with his silver age incarnation, as opposed to the Frank Miller inspired, constantly narrating neo-noir caricature that's dominated Batman comics since DKR. Grayson's contrast is especially evident given the diametrically antithetical deconstructionist approach Morrison's taken to Bruce for the last 25 years, attempting to integrate elements of the thelemic superman archetype that we know he has a hard-on for. If you look, you can see tons of Crowley's influence in RIP. I agree that Damien stands out more, but that's mostly because his character is just more ostentatious. Batman is (and should be) a bit more subdued.
 
I totally don't get the thinking that Grayson as Batman is not that different than Bruce Wayne. He's not as cold. The whole dynamic between Batman and Robin is different in part because of that, and in part because Robin is "spunkier". He comes off as completely different to me. He's much more self conscious and uneasy.
 
Gideon Stargrave said:
Everything that Morrison's written at DC for the past few years makes complete sense if you bother to read it all. It's nonlinear, strange and roundabout, but definitely entirely sensible. It's become apparent that The Joker was found by Talia after Damien knocked him off of that bridge in Batman RIP, was repurposed as the executioner she mentioned in her crusade against the Black Glove. This is confirmed by the killings they've both committed against the organization being listed in tandem with (what have been revealed as The Joker/Oberon's) Domino killings. It's possible that Talia doesn't play into the equation, and that Talia's murder of Jezebel being listed along the others was just a red herring via The Joker's characteristic misdirection, but given how much emphasis there's been on her neural control mechanisms, I kinda doubt it. Especially given The Joker's new personality (though, again, The Joker reinventing himself is a shtick Morrison commonly attributes to him). Anyway, it seems that Doctor Hurt himself has been tracking The Joker down, hence the dummy Sexton identity. This may or may not tie into the subplot with the Barbatos entity.

And while Dick Grayson's just been treated as Bruce Wayne-lite in most of the other Bat books on the stands, I think that Morrison's added enough good character moments to make his presence noteworthy in B&R. You have this neurotic, insecure and overall friendly Batman, almost in line with his silver age incarnation, as opposed to the Frank Miller inspired, constantly narrating neo-noir caricature that's dominated Batman comics since DKR. Grayson's contrast is especially evident given the diametrically antithetical deconstructionist approach Morrison's taken to Bruce for the last 25 years, attempting to integrate elements of the thelemic superman archetype that we know he has a hard-on for. If you look, you can see tons of Crowley's influence in RIP. I agree that Damien stands out more, but that's mostly because his character is just more ostentatious. Batman is (and should be) a bit more subdued.
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Wait. What? :dazed:
 
mike3717 said:
Wait. What? :dazed:
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The Joker's The Domino killer. He may or may not have been working for Talia. He's been primarily targeting members of The Black Glove, which eventually attracted the attention of Doctor Hurt/El Penitente, and the Oberon Sexton identity was a way to covertly continue his serial killing.

If you look at the lists of Domino killings in earlier issues (particularly the bulletin board in issue #10), you'll notice that the first recording murder is the one perpetrated by The Joker in RIP. The next, Jezebel Jet's death via Ninja Man Bat, was the handiwork of Talia in the last sequence of RIP, which makes me think that she's still involved.
 
Gideon Stargrave said:
Everything that Morrison's written at DC for the past few years makes complete sense if you bother to read it all. It's nonlinear, strange and roundabout, but definitely entirely sensible. It's become apparent that The Joker was found by Talia after Damien knocked him off of that bridge in Batman RIP, was repurposed as the executioner she mentioned in her crusade against the Black Glove. This is confirmed by the killings they've both committed against the organization being listed in tandem with (what have been revealed as The Joker/Oberon's) Domino killings. It's possible that Talia doesn't play into the equation, and that Talia's murder of Jezebel being listed along the others was just a red herring via The Joker's characteristic misdirection, but given how much emphasis there's been on her neural control mechanisms, I kinda doubt it. Especially given The Joker's new personality (though, again, The Joker reinventing himself is a shtick Morrison commonly attributes to him). Anyway, it seems that Doctor Hurt himself has been tracking The Joker down, hence the dummy Sexton identity. This may or may not tie into the subplot with the Barbatos entity.
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Okay, when I say "It doesn't make sense", I don't mean "there isn't a chronological chain of events that have causal effect", what I mean is that it doesn't make sense. The big, convoluted conspiracy, as much as I love them, are generally completely nonsensical. Characters do melodramatic things that no one would ever do in order to achieve their ends. This happens in espionage and heist stories. The characters create these elaborate plans with a thousand plot holes and plan their failures, and it's just nonsense. You don't plan for failure, and you don't plan to get caught. Now, elaborate plans are part of the fun of these stories, so it's a hard balance to strike between elaborate and over-the-top. Really hard to do. But if Talia wants to kill The Black Glove, she does not look for a man who might be dead and a man who is completely uncontrollable and send him out as a secret assassin. Especially when she has Deathstroke the Terminator on her payroll. She is a cool, calculating Queen. It doesn't fit.

Joker being the Domino killer and Sexton is cool, it is fun, but it makes no sense. Joker does not need to pretend to be Sexton for any reason at all. He already destroyed the Black Glove, and he's arrogant so why would he hide from him?

But you know what? It would make sense if it was Deathstroke the Terminator.

He was hired by Talia to take out the new Batman, look after her son, and kill the Black Glove because he is the greatest mercenary alive. And he'd take the job because he hates Nightwing. And he'd pretend to be Sexton and cover his crimes in the veneer of the Domino killer because he'd think, "So, Nightwing, you want to pretend you're Batman? Want to hide from me? Fine. I'll pretend to be someone else too. Come and get me." He wouldn't hunt Batman, he'd get "Batman" to hunt him.

That makes sense. His motivation for the elaborate ruse isn't, "I'm crazy!" His motivation for the elaborate ruse is, "I'm going to defeat you three ways in three guises at the same time, and you won't even know it's me. I want to undermine everything about you. I want to see you fail." And each disguise has purpose: He takes over Robin to betray him and kill Nightwing in his old costume. He pretends to be the Domino killer to give "Batman" a mystery to solve and advertise the murders. He pretends to be Sexton so he can be right there and watch him fail, so he can stand right next to him and not have Nightwing know. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

File this under: "Bitter Amateur Writer Rants". :/

Gideon Stargrave said:
And while Dick Grayson's just been treated as Bruce Wayne-lite in most of the other Bat books on the stands, I think that Morrison's added enough good character moments to make his presence noteworthy in B&R. You have this neurotic, insecure and overall friendly Batman, almost in line with his silver age incarnation, as opposed to the Frank Miller inspired, constantly narrating neo-noir caricature that's dominated Batman comics since DKR. Grayson's contrast is especially evident given the diametrically antithetical deconstructionist approach Morrison's taken to Bruce for the last 25 years, attempting to integrate elements of the thelemic superman archetype that we know he has a hard-on for. If you look, you can see tons of Crowley's influence in RIP. I agree that Damien stands out more, but that's mostly because his character is just more ostentatious. Batman is (and should be) a bit more subdued.
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E said:
I totally don't get the thinking that Grayson as Batman is not that different than Bruce Wayne. He's not as cold. The whole dynamic between Batman and Robin is different in part because of that, and in part because Robin is "spunkier". He comes off as completely different to me. He's much more self conscious and uneasy.
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There's certainly been elements of "This is Robin pretending to be Batman", but, for me, very little. For example, in #12, there's no difference at all. He shows up and talks to Joker and it's how Batman would've done it. It's the same. I remember reading an article at the beginning that said the switch was that Robin was serious and tough (which Damien is - he's terrific) and Batman was jokey and fun. So, to make my point: Grayson-Batman should be cavalier in the face of danger. He should be relaxing, standing his back on the wall, smirking, basically going, "I totally worked it out." He should be cocky and swashbuckling and, as he said way back in #2 or #3, showman-like. He should be really playing up the myth of Batman, that he's this over-the-top character, he should be treating it like a role and not mimicking Wayne, which what he said he wouldn't do.

I read BATMAN & ROBIN and when someone reminds me Bruce Wayne is dead and Dick Grayson's Batman, I'm shocked because I totally forgot because he's just writing Batman. I forget he's Robin. I don't particularly think that's a good thing.

That said, there is a moment in the reveal where Batman says, "Nah". Which is perfect. Batman would never say that.

Just because I'm pointing out when the ball is dropped doesn't mean I think it's bad. It isn't. I enjoyed it enough to comment. Until this moment, it's been rather lukewarm, but I really did enjoy the reveal. :)
 
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I doubt Joker's been working for Talia.

While I think Morrison's been doing a pretty good job with B&R, I don't think it's as good as his Batman run. And what puzzles me most is his comparison to B&R as drawing on elements of David Lynch. Honestly, I don't think the comparison is fitting at all. And the funny thing is, I could see a comparison to his original Batman run and David Lynch. It has all the pieces. Weird nightmarish continuity, a cryptic and ambiguous gatekeeper, an equally ambiguous and Satanic figure working in the shadows, and a fractured and unexplained exploration of identity and reality. Really, the latter half of his Batman arc fits Lynch to a tee. B&R, not so much.

I'd guess, Bass, that the next arc or two will explain the rationale behind Joker as Sexton.
 
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Joker and Talia working together is mostly supported by the fact that her murder of Jezebel was listed amongst the Domino killings, and that there's been such an emphasis on the fact that she has some form of mind control, foreshadowed in the most recent Batman vs. Robin arc. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if there's an actual connection, or if it is, indeed, just a red herring. Regardless, I think that it's preemptive to assume that Talia's motivation is flawed before we actually find out what it is.

And I agree that the David Lynch comparison is bogus. It's mostly comic book journalists who've given it that label, many of whom have probably never actually seen a Lynch movie. I think that they're just associating the reputations of the two creators with one another; dark, stylistic, surreal and confusing. I'd actually argue the point that Morrison's earlier Batman run fits the Lynch mold, as there's such an emphasis on reconciling Batman's 70+ years as a hero. A common theme (at least in the noir-ish Lynch films) is that there aren't any more heroes. I recently rewatched Mulholland Drive and Blue Velvet, and I think you can only superficially draw comparisons with the contemporary Morrison stuff, which is very, very appreciative of pop art. I'd be more inclined to draw a parallel between something like Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth and Eraserhead, actually. That I could see.
 
Gideon Stargrave said:
And I agree that the David Lynch comparison is bogus. It's mostly comic book journalists who've given it that label, many of whom have probably never actually seen a Lynch movie. I think that they're just associating the reputations of the two creators with one another; dark, stylistic, surreal and confusing. I'd actually argue the point that Morrison's earlier Batman run fits the Lynch mold, as there's such an emphasis on reconciling Batman's 70+ years as a hero. A common theme (at least in the noir-ish Lynch films) is that there aren't any more heroes. I recently rewatched Mulholland Drive and Blue Velvet, and I think you can only superficially draw comparisons with the contemporary Morrison stuff, which is very, very appreciative of pop art. I'd be more inclined to draw a parallel between something like Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth and Eraserhead, actually. That I could see.
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I've heard Morrison make the comparison in interview, directly, so... ;) I'm not willing to let him off the hook. I could see some design sensibilities between, say, Blue Velvet and the first arc of B&R, but beyond that, I don't really buy it. But yeah. The latter half of his Batman arc is VERY Lynchian, particularly in terms of his split reality films (Muholland Dr., Lost Highway, Inland Empire).
 
I want Hurt's Thomas Wayne to meet Hush's Bruce Wayne.
 
I quite liked issue 13... And while Robin beating Joker with a crowbar is a bit trite, I am very intrigued by whatever Morrison is trying to do with Joker.

And I like seeing the relationship between Gordon and Grayson develop (although at this point, any implication that Gordon doesn't know who Batman is are not only ludicrous, but insulting to the character).
 
I actually quite liked the Damian/Joker part. The thought that the Joker seems to find Damian a more intriguing nemesis than Dick is great.
 
Someone please write a detailed review of #16 so I can see if I missed anything.

That was insane.
 
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