Ultimates 2 #8 Discussion (SPOILERS)

[Rawb]

But how could hawkeye stand over himself and shoot himself all while holding his child in fear from being shot by..himself?

 

[compound]

Hank Pym/Ted Kord similarities

You know what? If Tony really is the traitor, and Pym is assisting him, I'd be really, really worried for Hank's safety.

Because we all know what happened to the LAST insecure schmuck-in-a-bug-suit who knew too much about the nefarious plans of a scheming rich guy

And right about now, Pym has about as much credibility in the super-hero community as the late Mr. Kord did...

 

[Rawb]

You know what? If Tony really is the traitor, and Pym is assisting him, I'd be really, really worried for Hank's safety.

Because we all know what happened to the LAST insecure schmuck-in-a-bug-suit who knew too much about the nefarious plans of a scheming rich guy

And right about now, Pym has about as much credibility in the super-hero community as the late Mr. Kord did...

I don't.
Tell me!

 

[Ultimates]

Ok?!?!?!?!? I Cant Believe No One Else Has Noticed This Yet?!?!? Perhaps No One Even Looked Like Cap In The First Place!!!

Look At Page 8 Or 9, And Look Close While The Team Is There At Hawkeye's......loki Is In The Background!!! Hahahaha

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

SHIELD DISSASSEMBLING - Guys, I don't mean SHIELD pulls the plug on themselves. Fury is already under fire from his own government about this and the rest of the world is scared of the U.S. because of him. If SHIELD pulls the plug on the supersoldier program all together it will be because they have no choice after the events of this arc and everyone will tell them they have too. Like Rawb said, All these 60 foot men and other playboys SHIELD has now is too much for a background security team which is what SHIELD will be after this arc. I believe they're all gonna loose their powers by the end of this.

Ultimate Red-Skull -You guys have to let go of the symbolic "Red" in his title. He doesn't have to be foregin and since Ultron and Red Skull are the major villains we know that one of them is directly related to the traitor because there's no time to introduce him with some sort of fresh background coming out of nowhere. But really, "Red" was used symbolically for 616 Red Skull. Name one Ultimization in the Ultimate Universe who has a different name?

Quicksilver - I didn't even pick up the conversation we were having about him or thought about him when I was reading the issue. Still it'd be cool if Quicksilver saved Hawkeye and the three are hideing out because they're trying to make heads or tails out of what's going on and sweep in at the end of the arc as added help.

 

[compound]

I don't.
Tell me!

Okay, needless to say, this has MAJOR Countdown To Infinite Crisis spoilers... Granted, this happened several months ago, but there could be folks waiting for the TPB...


The Blue Beetle, Ted Kord, was a flwaed if what likeable loser, who had recently been a member of a group of for-hire misfits known as the Super Buddies, operating from a storefront office. Much like the Ultimate Defenders, nobody really took them very seriously, but rather than being wanna-bes, they were mostly burned-out members of the former Justice League International.

In the 80-page special Countdown to Infinite Crisis, published earlier this year, Blue Beetle discovered a renewed Checkmate organization led by Maxwell Lord, influential billionaire and former bankroller of the JLA. Except nobody believed him, when he attempted to alert them of the imminent threat. He valiantly attempted to escape after discovering Checkmate's database of superhero infomration, but was shot in the head and apparently killed by Lord.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Look At Page 8 Or 9, And Look Close While The Team Is There At Hawkeye's......loki Is In The Background!!! Hahahaha

? Really!? I don't have the issue. Can I get a second on this?

 

[Tenyuki]

Name one Ultimization in the Ultimate Universe who has a different name?

The Avengers = The Ultimates.

 

[leather_w0lf]

My vote is that Cap & Thor are freed by Tony after Widow gets hit at the wedding - Tony becomes one righteous dude - and take it to the bad guys in full force. As far as breaking the Ultimates off into the private sector, Tony did "create" the 616 Avengers, after all. On a side note, it fits in with the release of the Ultimate Avengers DVD in February. Why would Marvel call it Ultimate Avengers while advertising it as an adaptation of Millar & Hitch's The Ultimates? Hmmmmmm . . .

Now, in 616 the Masters of Evil became the Thunderbolts which were the reaplcements for the Avengers when bad things had happened. Crimson Cowel was, at one time, Loki in disguise. I believe that the Reserves are the actual traitors with Loki & Ultron leading them. The Reserves could really be the Masters Of Evil Ultimized. Someone should do a comparisson of Masters of Evil members with the Reservists to see if any match, powers-wise. Oh, and Hank was a member of the Masters of Evil when he was Yellowjacket - remember that. And the traitor has obviously recruited Hank.

Leather

 

[Tenyuki]

On a side note, it fits in with the release of the Ultimate Avengers DVD in February. Why would Marvel call it Ultimate Avengers while advertising it as an adaptation of Millar & Hitch's The Ultimates?

So as to not confuse casual Marvel fans that don't have knowledge about The Ultimates. It's a marketing ploy, in my opinion.

 

[14rdb]

SHIELD DISSASSEMBLING - Guys, I don't mean SHIELD pulls the plug on themselves. Fury is already under fire from his own government about this and the rest of the world is scared of the U.S. because of him. If SHIELD pulls the plug on the supersoldier program all together it will be because they have no choice after the events of this arc and everyone will tell them they have too. Like Rawb said, All these 60 foot men and other playboys SHIELD has now is too much for a background security team which is what SHIELD will be after this arc. I believe they're all gonna loose their powers by the end of this.

I can't see this happening. The Union exists in Europe. The USSR made progress in superhuman development thanks to the discovery of Vision and that knowledge and experience could find its way into use by former Soviet nations at any time. There are real extraterrestrial forces that threaten the very existence of life on Earth that S.H.I.E.L.D. couldn't take down without the use of superhuman forces.

It's kind of like nuclear weapons. Ideally, you'd rather they were never invented, but they were and others have them (and still others are trying to acquire them). As much as you hate them, there is no way you can get rid of them now without making yourself ridiculously vulnerable.

 

[Rawb]

I can second it! I took a look and i am positive i see loki there again. That guy is EVERYWHERE.

Thanks for the background on your reference, Compound - I don't read DC.

I really hope that do indeed neutralize all the reserves and g-men powers. Argh.

I don't remember YJ joining the masters of evil. Around what issues were they? I remember in the late 220's that he was FORCED to join the masters of evil by egghead then single handedly took them all down (go Hank Pym!).

 

[Rawb]

I can't see this happening. The Union exists in Europe. The USSR made progress in superhuman development thanks to the discovery of Vision and that knowledge and experience could find its way into use by former Soviet nations at any time. There are real extraterrestrial forces that threaten the very existence of life on Earth that S.H.I.E.L.D. couldn't take down without the use of superhuman forces.

It's kind of like nuclear weapons. Ideally, you'd rather they were never invented, but they were and others have them (and still others are trying to acquire them). As much as you hate them, there is no way you can get rid of them now without making yourself ridiculously vulnerable.

That is an extremely good point, and it saddens me

 

[big danny d]

But how could hawkeye stand over himself and shoot himself all while holding his child in fear from being shot by..himself?

no he set it all up, knowing there were other potential cameras he didnt know about, i dont have the issue in front of me as im at work but i recall there being a small group of guys who stormed the house, and i also dont recall hawkeye being shown as dead or getting shot in the head. only that we were left to conclude he was infact shot and killed.

i dunno, just seems like something a guy we dont really know a whole lot about could have orchestrated something like this, maybe make the people hes betraying think he is infact dead?

but now that lokis there, that just means anythings possible and santa clause himself could be infact the killer *shrugs*

 

[Rawb]

Hehe true enough about anything goes as far as Loki... but I just really can't picture hawkeye murdering his family, or having it done. And hawkeye WAS shot during the attack.

I don't know, i just can't see it happening.

 

[compound]

It's kind of like nuclear weapons. Ideally, you'd rather they were never invented, but they were and others have them (and still others are trying to acquire them). As much as you hate them, there is no way you can get rid of them now without making yourself ridiculously vulnerable.

Hence all the in-story references to the war-to-end-all-wars, and the looming threat of a new arms race, with Persons of Mass Destruction as the basis of martial strength.

I think Millar was drawing an intentional parallel with the idea of weapons stockpiling, except in this case, the weapons are living, breathing individuals. In which case, they might as well be *soldiers* first and foremost, rather than than *human beings* (in the sense of having feelings, emotions, neuroses). For all of the Ultimates' otherworldly abilities, they feel a heckuva lot more human than the ostensibly more 'normal' Reserves.

It reminds me of the differences between the diverse, unpredictable, and independent Justice League Unilimited members, from the cartoon, and their government-sponsored rivals, the Ultimen, who are ostensibly just reckless, clone-able cannon-fodder. (In fact, there are quite a number of superficial similarities between the Reserves and the Ultimen, if you really think about it.)

 

[Tenyuki]

I strongly believe Quicksilver and, perhaps, the Scarlet Witch are involved, whether they're involved with the traitor, or were involved in helping Hawkeye to safety. There has to be a reason as to why Millar would write in how Wanda left her bag at their house, other than to fool us as to who was at the door.

 

[Ultimates]

Sorry, didnt have time to say more earlier. I still cant believe no one picked up on Loki being there I was bored at work (call center) so I started fine combing every page, and there he was

 

[Rawb]

Ack callcenter. I feel your pain. I'm at one too
I still can't believe I didn't notice it, but sure enough that slimey jerk is there amongst shield. Supreme intelligence indeed.

 

[compound]

at the risk of going off-topic...

That makes three of us working at contact centers! (Am working too, at the moment -- it's the night shift, because we service US-based outbound clients.) Maybe I oughta start a separate thread, just to see how many UC regulars are call center employees.