Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens Discussion [SPOILERS]

[wyokid]

I'm seeing that a vast majority of negativity around this movie is being conveyed in the most a-holish way possible.

After I watched the film I was sitting there thinking "there is no way to criticize this film without sounding like an a-hole who hates fun". I feel like an a-hole criticizing it because so many people love it. This film is critic proof.

 

[ProjectX2]

I think Reverse Shot's review covers similar ideas but in a much less cynical way.

 

[DIrishB]

I'm with you on that. I also mostly agreed with the parts of the article you posted. Episode 7 wasn't a movie that stood on its own, it was a pilot episode.

I disagree.

We got a complete story, it's merely a chapter in a bigger saga, as ALL the SW films are, as all the MCU films are, etc. And honestly, every point in that article wyo posted can be applied to literally every franchise film.

It relies entirely on taking the most negative view possible, which is inherently dishonest and ultimately just becomes an exercise in how pithy and selective and cynical you can be.

The film had a beginning, a middle, and an end. It was a hell of a lot of fun. It made great use of the nostalgia factor.

I do agree it doesn't deserve a 94% rating, but 60-70% is far less than it deserves.

That article though is exactly what E painted it as: an exercise in a-holery and cynicism.

It must suck to view the world through such crap-colored lenses.

 

[wyokid]

George Lucas shared his thoughts

"They wanted to do a retro movie. I don't like that. Every movie I work very hard to make them completely different, with different planets, with different spaceships, make it new," he said.

 

[SSJmole]

And honestly, every point in that article wyo posted can be applied to literally every franchise film.

It relies entirely on taking the most negative view possible, which is inherently dishonest and ultimately just becomes an exercise in how pithy and selective and cynical you can be.

The film had a beginning, a middle, and an end. It was a hell of a lot of fun. It made great use of the nostalgia factor.

I do agree it doesn't deserve a 94% rating, but 60-70% is far less than it deserves.

That article though is exactly what E painted it as: an exercise in a-holery and cynicism.

It must suck to view the world through such crap-colored lenses.

Saying "crap-colored lenses" and such is literally as "a-holery" as that link's view for the same reason. I mean if saying "You view is wrong and I i'll tell you why" is bad then so is "Your opinion is selective and you are just viewing in crap-colored lenses" It's the same. Can we not just agree not everyone will like it and they are as entitled to dislike as people are to like. Neither is "wrong" or "viewing it wrong" Just different opinion. I mean that's like saying "Well those transformer movies make money so you are not allowed to hate them"

I mean people are comparing it's 94% as proof guess what Episode III and Episode VI are only 1% apart yet people deemed it wrong to list III > VI. THIS is what I'm on about. The defence (not just here) for this film is borderline fanboy-like. I mean look all that negativity Max Landis got for faulting a character in it, It's borderline online bullying that if you fault this movie you are labelled as "wrong" or get harassed yet if you go "PERFECT BEST FILM EVER" everyone goes "you are right"

EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion even if you don't agree with it.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I disagree.

We got a complete story, it's merely a chapter in a bigger saga, as ALL the SW films are, as all the MCU films are, etc. And honestly, every point in that article wyo posted can be applied to literally every franchise film.

It relies entirely on taking the most negative view possible, which is inherently dishonest and ultimately just becomes an exercise in how pithy and selective and cynical you can be.

The film had a beginning, a middle, and an end. It was a hell of a lot of fun. It made great use of the nostalgia factor.

I do agree it doesn't deserve a 94% rating, but 60-70% is far less than it deserves.

That article though is exactly what E painted it as: an exercise in a-holery and cynicism.

It must suck to view the world through such crap-colored lenses.

First of all, I think I've been as even and fair as anyone in my opinions. I have even said that I like the movie, but I don't love it and I've explained why. I know you disagree. That's fine.

Hey, guess what... we like different things in movies. That happens. You think the plot of this story was well developed. I think they wanted to introduce exciting new characters and tease stuff to come with them and they had to have action and spectacle and nostalgia. As a result, there wasn't room for a real, original plot, so they rehashed a
ANH.

I think a story needs to slow down from time to time and have some narrative. This movie moved at break-neck speed and skimmed over some of the narrative points I think they should have talked about more explicitly. You think they did it smartly. That's fine; I disagree. To be fair, I admitted that I missed an important part that you pointed out. That helps, but it doesn't solve the problems for me.

I'm not being negative or pithy or cynical or wearing crap-coloured glasses, I'm just expressing my opinion. Maybe I'm reading your posts wrong, but You seem frustrated and even offended by that opinion.

I'm glad you like it so passionately. I was underwhelmed.

EDIT:

people deemed it wrong to list III > VI. THIS is what I'm on about.

My bad, mole. I hope I wasn't too much of a jerk. Star Wars is a passionate topic. :lol: but I am sorry. You're free to like which ever episodes you like.

 

[SSJmole]

I think a story needs to slow down from time to time and have some narrative. This movie moved at break-neck speed and skimmed over some of the narrative points I think they should have talked about more explicitly. You think they did it smartly. That's fine; I disagree. To be fair, I admitted that I missed an important part that you pointed out. That helps, but it doesn't solve the problems for me.

This is something I felt too as like I said it lost the fantasy , the heart I felt by just going fast paced. I used lightsaber scene as example I mean The new one is scene scene scene scene fast during saber. Luke's was

[video=youtube;hFB16GCocfw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFB16GCocfw&html5=1[/video]


That still gives me goosebumps , it's one guy talking but it feels so much more magical and that is what this movie I feel did wrong. There was no scene that felt like it had this much magic.

 

[DIrishB]

Saying "crap-colored lenses" and such is literally as "a-holery" as that link's view for the same reason. I mean if saying "You view is wrong and I i'll tell you why" is bad then so is "Your opinion is selective and you are just viewing in crap-colored lenses" It's the same. Can we not just agree not everyone will like it and they are as entitled to dislike as people are to like. Neither is "wrong" or "viewing it wrong" Just different opinion. I mean that's like saying "Well those transformer movies make money so you are not allowed to hate them"

I mean people are comparing it's 94% as proof guess what Episode III and Episode VI are only 1% apart yet people deemed it wrong to list III > VI. THIS is what I'm on about. The defence (not just here) for this film is borderline fanboy-like. I mean look all that negativity Max Landis got for faulting a character in it, It's borderline online bullying that if you fault this movie you are labelled as "wrong" or get harassed yet if you go "PERFECT BEST FILM EVER" everyone goes "you are right"

EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion even if you don't agree with it.

Jesus...

I have never once said anyone was wrong for not liking TFA.

The only thing I've debated was how people who shall remain unnamed continuously ignored the evidence the film offered through her flashbacks as evidence for why Rey wasn't a Mary Sue.

If you don't like the film, I get that. I don't have a problem with that. I really don't care.

I do get ticked when people selectively ignore evidence that refutes their point, as in the Rey/Mary Sue debate.

I, specifically, was talking about the article posted by wyo. That's abundantly clear in my post, and explicitly referenced as focus of said post.

It's fine to have a difference of opinion. That's never been the issue.

What is it people aren't understanding about what I'm saying?

First of all, I think I've been as even and fair as anyone in my opinions. I have even said that I like the movie, but I don't love it and I've explained why. I know you disagree. That's fine.

Hey, guess what... we like different things in movies. That happens. You think the plot of this story was well developed. I think they wanted to introduce exciting new characters and tease stuff to come with them and they had to have action and spectacle and nostalgia. As a result, there wasn't room for a real, original plot, so they rehashed a
ANH.

I think a story needs to slow down from time to time and have some narrative. This movie moved at break-neck speed and skimmed over some of the narrative points I think they should have talked about more explicitly. You think they did it smartly. That's fine; I disagree. To be fair, I admitted that I missed an important part that you pointed out. That helps, but it doesn't solve the problems for me.

I'm not being negative or pithy or cynical or wearing crap-coloured glasses, I'm just expressing my opinion. Maybe I'm reading your posts wrong, but You seem frustrated and even offended by that opinion.

I'm glad you like it so passionately. I was underwhelmed.

EDIT:



My bad, mole. I hope I wasn't too much of a jerk. Star Wars is a passionate topic. :lol: but I am sorry. You're free to like which ever episodes you like.

You guys are taking it personally when I specifically aimed that at the article posted by wyo. I even explicitly stated as such in that post but you somehow overlooked that.

And Captain, you're assuming a lot merely because I've defended aspects of the film. I don't love it. I enjoy it, sure, but it's far from a perfect film, or even a perfect SW film.

I don't think the plot was "well developed", I think it was decent and serviceable for what it aimed to do.

You guys keep mentioning how TFA is a rehash of ANH, and I agree. It was supposed to be. I'd advise you to look up Lucas' intended parallel story structure to the three trilogies. If you're not a fan of that or think it's unoriginal, you're probably going to hate the next two films in the sequel trilogy.

The movie did feature a lot of action, and moved at "break neck speeds" during those action scenes, but there were also PLENTY of scenes featuring the narrative points you mentioned, or merely simple character moments. I've seen it three times now and can name 4-5 of those scenes off the top of my head.

And, again, I'm not sure why you're being defensive. I clearly stated I was talking about the article posted, specifically since it seems to be riding the wave of selective criticism.

Criticize the film by all means, but unless they're calling out all franchises for leaving things unresolved or whatnot, it seems, as I said, selective.

The exact things complained about in that article can be applied to ANY franchise. So... why is Star Wars being called out for it when so many others aren't?

 

[SSJmole]

My bad, mole. I hope I wasn't too much of a jerk. Star Wars is a passionate topic. :lol: but I am sorry. You're free to like which ever episodes you like.

You were not I just used as an example I keep seeing the RT score been proof VII is best one!!!! yet at the same time the same people say OT was perfect and nothing good came from PT , It's annoying as I loved (yes past tense) Star wars and even episode I had great parts to me even if it's the worst one.

 

[thee great one]

I'm seeing that a vast majority of negativity around this movie is being conveyed in the most a-holish way possible.

That's what this whole site as turned into.

 

[thee great one]

Also star wars sucks.

 

[wyokid]

That's what this whole site as turned into.

Somehow I feel like this is my fault

 

[thee great one]

Somehow I feel like this is my fault

it is

 

[SSJmole]

Also Rey has never left her home planet since she was a child right? How the **** can she speak Wookie? I thought no one could speak wookie. . Just curious as I was talking to a friend about the translator part of my dislike and his response was "Yeah, How did she lean that on 'not Tatooine' ?" and I was like "...... how did I not think to ask that to myself?"

Not trying to bring up the fact she's a bad character , generally wondering as thought no one understood wookie except maybe han + c3po

 

[DIrishB]

Also Rey has never left her home planet since she was a child right? How the **** can she speak Wookie? I thought no one could speak wookie. . Just curious as I was talking to a friend about the translator part of my dislike and his response was "Yeah, How did she lean that on 'not Tatooine' ?" and I was like "...... how did I not think to ask that to myself?"

Not trying to bring up the fact she's a bad character , generally wondering as thought no one understood wookie except maybe han + c3po

Dude, we know Rey HAS left her home planet, that Jakku is NOT her home planet based on being left there as a child. That is established fact in the film itself.

It's easily explainable she learned Shyriiwook (or some of its dialects), likely at Luke's academy when she was there as a kid.

Also, when was Rey "speaking" in Shyriiwook? I don't remember that at all. It's supposedly difficult for humans to actually "speak" Shyriiwook due to not having the vocal cords needed to mimic the barks and howls of the language, supposedly.

But again, that's all Legends continuity, so has no real bearing on TFA.

 

[SSJmole]

I was using speak to mean understand like people do. She understood him which even if she has been trainedc as kid the fact she doesn't remember it yet understands chewie perfectly is the point. It'd be like a child learning french when they were 5 never speaking it again then when they were 25 or 30 been so fluent they'd understand a french person perfectly the way she understood chewie.


Also it may not be the planet she was born on but she lived there all her life THAT makes it her home. If not 90% of the world are homless as they don't live in the house they did when they were born

 

[DIrishB]

I was using speak to mean understand like people do. She understood him which even if she has been trainedc as kid the fact she doesn't remember it yet understands chewie perfectly is the point. It'd be like a child learning french when they were 5 never speaking it again then when they were 25 or 30 been so fluent they'd understand a french person perfectly the way she understood chewie.

Dude, you keep ignoring the blatantly obvious clues, so I'll lay it out once again:

Rey is a Skywalker. Rey was trained at Luke's Jedi Academy. Han is her uncle. It stands to reason Rey met Chewie before, and likely understands him to some degree. As was said in the movie the Wookiee language is extremely difficult for humans to understand, so that indicates she spent some time picking it up, likely from Chewie, maybe not, maybe some other Wookiee (perhaps Luke had a Wookiee Jedi trainee a young Rey was friends with at the academy). Who knows?

Also it may not be the planet she was born on but she lived there all her life THAT makes it her home. If not 90% of the world are homless as they don't live in the house they did when they were born

No, she didn't live there "all her life". We know that for a fact based on the flashback scenes. If you're going to resort to untruths to make your point, there is no point.

She lived there the majority of her life, sure, a good 2/3 of it likely (since she's in her late teens or early twenties), and was left on Jakku around the ages of 7-10.

 

[SSJmole]

No, she didn't live there "all her life". We know that for a fact based on the flashback scenes. If you're going to resort to untruths to make your point, there is no point.

She lived there the majority of her life, sure, a good 2/3 of it likely (since she's in her late teens or early twenties), and was left on Jakku around the ages of 7-10.

That's not an untruth! that's how people say. I say I spent all my life living in my city but in all honesty it's been like 18 to 22 years. I'm 30. It's not a lie it's just a figure of spech if you have to take things at face value then why is there future technology "A long time ago" as ever star wars film says.


There was no point I was trying to make stop been so defensive of "How did she understand chewie?" It's sort of a running joke in star wars no one understands him. even Leia has misunderstood him at times or only understand vague stuff besides han. I just wondered why they sorta got rid of that running joke. It's like "I've got a bad feeling about this" It's a running joke which is cool.

And I'm sorry 7 years trying to remember at 20 is silly they just know it. People forget stuff like second languages all the time, hell

I moved to the UK when I was 23 and have been here for over 10 years. People always look at me sceptically when I say I have "lost" my Dutch language.

When my mother calls I need to put her on hold while I go and get the thesaurus.

My colleagues send me documents to be translated into my native language, and I end up taking them home to take my time. Even when I come across other Dutch people in the UK, I ask if they don't mind speaking English because my English is better than my Dutch.

I don't mind though, English is such a beautiful language, I have loved it since I was little and it's no wonder I ended up in an English-speaking country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28022790


see it's not a big deal it's not a "point making" thing or "selective" or whatever else defensive It just a simple question based on real things too of people not understanding THEIR FIRST language after 10 years not needing it and this is a second and harder to lean. BUT I suppose those people giving their real life story are also ignoring the blatantly obvious clues of how things works right?

I was just asking how can she understand him with no wookiee in sight on her planet which you even said was 10 to 13 years of her life! Just a question as yeah it slightly bugs me

 

[DIrishB]

That's not an untruth! that's how people say. I say I spent all my life living in my city but in all honesty it's been like 18 to 22 years. I'm 30. It's not a lie it's just a figure of spech if you have to take things at face value then why is there future technology "A long time ago" as ever star wars film says.


There was no point I was trying to make stop been so defensive of "How did she understand chewie?" It's sort of a running joke in star wars no one understands him. even Leia has misunderstood him at times or only understand vague stuff besides han. I just wondered why they sorta got rid of that running joke. It's like "I've got a bad feeling about this" It's a running joke which is cool.

And I'm sorry 7 years trying to remember at 20 is silly they just know it. People forget stuff like second languages all the time, hell





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28022790


see it's not a big deal it's not a "point making" thing or "selective" or whatever else defensive It just a simple question based on real things too of people not understanding THEIR FIRST language after 10 years not needing it and this is a second and harder to lean. BUT I suppose those people giving their real life story are also ignoring the blatantly obvious clues of how things works right?

I was just asking how can she understand him with no wookiee in sight on her planet which you even said was 10 to 13 years of her life! Just a question as yeah it slightly bugs me

Actually, people don't forget second languages, hardly ever, due to how the brain processes and stores language related knowledge.

It's absolutely within the realm of believability for someone who picked up some Wookiee as a kid to understand it later on, even factoring in a partial memory wipe.

 

[DIrishB]

If the internet was around in 1977... this would've been the reaction to A New Hope:

Have you seen this new movie Star Wars everyone is talking about? So many plot holes! So many things taken from other stories!

Here are the 10 biggest problems:

1. Droids, what a dumb name, really they're just robots. C3PO is so annoying, they should just shut him off.

2. The old man with Luke's father's lightsaber just happens to live near Luke. Real convenient, Lucas.


3. Han Solo understanding the big hairy thing.

4. Darth Vader is just pure evil, no character other than malevolence. He even chokes members of the Empire, that's it.. Needs more character development.


5. R2-D2 can access all the computer records from that one room. That's not the way computers work. Overpowered!

6. They killed Ben Kenobi!!!!!! We just met him. There was so much we did not find out. How did he become a Jedi? How did he know Luke's father? What were the Clone Wars? They did not tell us any of that and now he's dead. This isn't a complete film.

7. The scene explaining the Death Star was a copy of The Guns of Navaronne. So unoriginal.

8. A small spaceship can take out a moon-size weapon. That's just weak, lazy writing, man.

9. Blowing up the Death Star right when it was about to blow up the Rebel base, convenient.

10. If there is another movie, you know Luke and Leia are going to end up together.