Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens Discussion [SPOILERS]

[wyokid]

There is a reason people say superman is too perfect or complain at some batman plans.

Because they've never read a comic.

 

[SSJmole]

Because they've never read a comic.

Or because before new 52 superman was too perfect. He had no flaws and that makes a lousy character.

 

[wyokid]

Or because before new 52 superman was too perfect. He had no flaws and that makes a lousy character.

As I said, they've never read a comic. Please point to me to the run this happened in because Superman as a character is about conflict. The whole existence of Clark Kent in of itself shows conflict within the character. Superman is a mask that Clark Kent puts on, not the other way around. He feels more comfortable living as a human than he does being Superman and having to balance that is only one of many of Superman's conflict. This is a Star Wars thread though.

 

[DIrishB]

It has nothing to do with "the battlecry of angry men" As that is a really easy and convenient argument "Don't like her you are sexist!" even though some of the same people like myself complained they've erased mara jade BUT as there's more females erased from the EU i guess everyone in support of loosing mara jade or Jaina Solo are just "angry men"

No, just unrealistic. If you didn't see the EU reboot coming when Disney bought Lucasfilm, I don't know what to tell you. We've had the conversation about the reboot a few times already: they were never going to adapt or align the sequel trilogy with the bloated, over complicated continuity set forth by novels and comics that were never considered canon by Lucas anyway.

It is what it is.

No. it's storytelling 101 , the excuse of "They'll explain it in a sequel" does not cut it. Regardless of gender having a character out pilot Han solo , Tell him things about the Falcon he didnt know , out shoot a wave of military trained guys , then out dual someone who had training all the while having NO flaws is terrible

Here's the thing: no one would would be complaining if Ben Solo had been the one out piloting Han Solo, or being a better tech head or lightsaber dueler, etc.

I think it's inherently untrue to say Rey was a character without flaws. I also think it's inherently ridiculous to complain that some stuff hasn't been accomplished yet in the first part of a film trilogy. Their character arcs are meant to cover the trilogy. Her arc in this film was partially discovering her origins, though admittedly not getting the full explanation. Just like Luke ANH & ESB, and Anakin in the Prequels.

Luke was a pilot great enough to blow up the frigging Death Star a few days after leaving his planet.

Anakin was the first human to win a pod race (in a self built pod racer) and blew up a Trade Federation command ship as a 10 year old kid.

Yet no mentions of Luke or Anakin being overpowered by those same Rey detractors, so yeah, there does seem to be some odd double standard at play.

Kind of a valid point, no?

There is a reason people say superman is too perfect or complain at some batman plans. It because gender does not = character. The fact your argument comes down to "if you dont like her your sexist" and "It's ok they'll explain it" means I suspect you kind of already know it's true. I mean "It's also INCREDIBLY likely she had a fair amount of training in Jedi/Force abilities as a child, assuming she's Luke's daughter." But spent the movie saying jedi + luke are just myths, meaning theres no proof she had training.

No, there isn't, except her flashbacks strongly indicating her witnessing Ben Solo/Kylo Ren's turn and slaughter of the other trainees at Luke's school, and the Force abilities she exhibited.

I mean, come ON! Those are the biggest indicators right there! Her parallel childhoods to Anakin and Luke growing up on desolate desert worlds, etc. I mean, we don't know for sure, that's true, but the formula indicates the revelation about Luke being her father will come in the next film, just as Empire did the revelation of Luke/Vader's father & son relationship.

We'll also get the chance to see Luke explain the turn of Ben Solo and why he left Rey on Jakku, why and how he wiped her memory to protect her, etc. It could even be revealed that Luke wiped Ben's memory of Rey to prevent him from hunting her directly.

as for "She's a skywalker" Oh you mean like anakin who first fight with someone trained (dooku) he lost?

Yes, Dooku the Sith Lord and master lightsaber dueler. I doubt Kylo Ren is anything close to Dooku at full health (least not yet), let alone with a bowcaster blast through his side. It's amazing how in the rush to label Rey as overpowered/Mary Sue, many ignore that, and the obvious indicators of her lineage. I mean... why do that? There's an inherent dislogic to the entire argument that Rey is overpowered unless you think the same of Anakin and Luke, isn't there?

Remember this movie's arc for Kylo Ren was severing his last ties to the Light Side and his family. He'll have fully embraced the Dark Side by the next film, and will be far more powerful and terrifying as a result.

I mean, come on, it's the first film in a trilogy, people!

Or luke who in movie VI never fought any one and movie V could barly use the force till trained?

Did you watch a different version of RotJ than I did? I remember Luke fighting lots of people on Jabba's skiff, on Endor (speeder bike scene), and finally Vader. And again, you're overlooking that Rey, in comparison, has likely HAD more training than Luke did at that point, due to training under Luke as a child. Luke had no such benefit and largely had to wing it/make it up as he went outside of the little he learned from Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Yes, the same Luke whose inherently strong Force powers allowed him to make a 1 in a million shot to blow up the first Death Star, who had hardly any training at all (Obi-Wan taught him a day's worth of training before dying at Vader's hands, and Yoda taught him merely Force manipulation and balance focus, I don't remember him flipping around and teaching Luke lightsaber dueling skills like in the Prequels).

The majority of Luke's training likely had to come through Holocrons discovered post-RotJ, and maybe a direct line to the Force ghost hotline of Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin... that hasn't been revealed yet. But the OT showed Luke had VERY little training, arguably far less than Rey likely would have had as a Padawan/trainee at Luke's school before Kylo's betrayal. And let's be honest, that's 99% likely to be the case.

She is a bad character the same way Superman usually is.

By that metric Anakin and Luke both are also bad characters using only TPM and ANH as comparison.

It should be obvious Rey will be presented with vulnerabilities in the next film similar to the way Anakin was in AotC (whiny and impulsive)--Rey has already been shown to be impulsive, though I doubt she'll be whiny--and Luke in Empire, from getting attacked by the Wampa, caught in a snowstorm and being rescued by Han, confronting his fears and vulnerabilities and knowing he wasn't ready, and yet facing Vader anyway and getting his hand cut off as a result.

Rey will likely have a similar arc of facing her hubris and limitations of her power in Episode VIII. If that doesn't happen then the Mary Sue complaints may be valid. Right now they're not, and are shortsighted knee jerk reactions that ignore some obvious clues or otherwise blatant evidence.

Such as: Ren had been shot with a damn crossbow bolt by an enraged Chewbacca to start, so I can believe Finn (uninjured but still outclassed) holding his own for the 30 seconds or so that lasted. I can also believe Rey beating Ren due to his injuries and her inherent power and training coming back to her.

I can also believe Rey's inherent piloting skills are greater than Han Solo's (given her likely Skywalker lineage and her father and grandfather also being amazing pilots), as is her knowledge of tech/ship mechanics. She was a scavenger her entire life to that point, and as such may have an inherent better understanding of not only ship mechanics in general, but making do with less in tight spots (as she displayed).

It just seems people are rushing to apply the Mary Sue label despite the obvious hints of her genealogy and prior training, and personally, I find it silly.

I mean, it's the classic hero's journey arc:

Hero discovers talents/destiny beyond their previous scope, embark on journey to defeat antagonist/accomplish quest.

Hero then discovers limitations of that power, must embark on further quest to train/hone/overcome their shortcomings, often unsuccessfully to a degree in second chapter.

Hero then overcomes, often at great personal sacrifice in third chapter.

We've only gotten the first chapter so far, so... aren't these complaints premature, considering that?

Unless there are different rules for chicks?

 

[DIrishB]

I agree with all of this: Rey is basically the Jedi equivalent of Jason Bourne. And I wouldn't be surprised if Max von Sydow was watching over her before his untimely demise (hence his knowledge of Kylo Ren and Leia and possessing part of the map to Luke's whereabouts).

Von Sydow's character is supposedly someone introduced in the canon already. Some are theorizing he may be Ezra Bridger or Kanan Jarrus from the Rebels show, but I doubt it.

Based on the novelization, I am now more than ever convinced that Snoke is actually Darth Plagueis and that he is the one responsible for the creation of Anakin Skywalker.

I seriously hope thats the route they take. It'd be infinitely more interesting and offer much more of a full circle effect than some random new Dark Side user.

 

[SSJmole]

Here's the thing: no one would would be complaining if Ben Solo had been the one out piloting Han Solo, or being a better tech head or lightsaber dueler, etc.

I would if he did ALL of them, Then again I didn't like his character anyway,

I think it's inherently untrue to say Rey was a character without flaws. I also think it's inherently ridiculous to complain that some stuff hasn't been accomplished yet in the first part of a film trilogy. Their character arcs are meant to cover the trilogy. Her arc in this film was partially discovering her origins, though admittedly not getting the full explanation. Just like Luke ANH & ESB, and Anakin in the Prequels.

Luke was a pilot great enough to blow up the frigging Death Star a few days after leaving his planet.

Anakin was the first human to win a pod race (in a self built pod racer) and blew up a Trade Federation command ship as a 10 year old kid.

Yet no mentions of Luke or Anakin being overpowered by those same Rey detractors, so yeah, there does seem to be some odd double standard at play.

Kind of a valid point, no?

Not really. Luke blew up death star in first movie so he had pilot part , Anakin first film had podracing + building c3p0 and People still complained about him so having shooting , piloting , lightsabering , forcing + correcting Han = I would complain. I complained at Anakin in episode 1 when he was a bad character too. so yes there is a "some odd double standard at play." Episode I male lead = everyone complain , Fault episode VII with female and it's wrong!

No, there isn't, except her flashbacks strongly indicating her witnessing Ben Solo/Kylo Ren's turn and slaughter of the other trainees at Luke's school, and the Force abilities she exhibited.

I mean, come ON! Those are the biggest indicators right there! Her parallel childhoods to Anakin and Luke growing up on desolate desert worlds, etc. I mean, we don't know for sure, that's true, but the formula indicates the revelation about Luke being her father will come in the next film, just as Empire did the revelation of Luke/Vader's father & son relationship.

We'll also get the chance to see Luke explain the turn of Ben Solo and why he left Rey on Jakku, why and how he wiped her memory to protect her, etc. It could even be revealed that Luke wiped Ben's memory of Rey to prevent him from hunting her directly.

The flashbacks though never said it was her remembering and seemed to be more "visions" so I would not count them, The Force abilities as I said felt out of no where

Yes, Dooku the Sith Lord and master lightsaber dueler. I doubt Kylo Ren is anything close to Dooku at full health (least not yet), let alone with a bowcaster blast through his side. It's amazing how in the rush to label Rey as overpowered/Mary Sue, many ignore that, and the obvious indicators of her lineage. I mean... why do that? There's an inherent dislogic to the entire argument that Rey is overpowered unless you think the same of Anakin and Luke, isn't there?

Really? so in a new hope + Phantom Menace , They both had piloting , shooting guns at military , correcting han solo (who wouldn't even let luke touch much fyi) out lightsabered a force user and more? no they didnt they had 2.

Did you watch a different version of RotJ than I did?

I meant IV , if in IX shes grown I have 0 complaint but she has grown too fast ant too convenient

Yes, the same Luke whose inherently strong Force powers allowed him to make a 1 in a million shot to blow up the first Death Star, who had hardly any training at all (Obi-Wan taught him a day's worth of training before dying at Vader's hands, and Yoda taught him merely Force manipulation and balance focus, I don't remember him flipping around and teaching Luke lightsaber dueling skills like in the Prequels).

That's 1 thing and it was mentioned he shot for a living. That's okay. If she had only resisted the mind torture cool , only used saber , cool. or only any of her other feats then cool . But ALL is silly.

It just seems people are rushing to apply the Mary Sue label despite the obvious hints of her genealogy and prior training, and personally, I find it silly.

I mean, it's the classic hero's journey arc:

Hero discovers talents/destiny beyond their previous scope, embark on journey to defeat antagonist/accomplish quest.

Hero then discovers limitations of that power, must embark on further quest to train/hone/overcome their shortcomings, often unsuccessfully to a degree in second chapter.

Hero then overcomes, often at great personal sacrifice in third chapter.

We've only gotten the first chapter so far, so... aren't these complaints premature, considering that?

Unless there are different rules for chicks?

Apparently there is "different rules for chicks" As the prequels people hated it anytime Anakin had something similar to luke and hated in phantom menace BUT if we fault Rey her sex means that's the only reason and she must be protected, THAT is sexist. The idea that faulting a woman is due to her sex. Like you cant look past it.

I complained when Anakain built c3p0 , I complained when he said yippee , I complained when he blew up what i call "my first death star" in episode I. And i complain at Rey but hey that's me I see characters and story not sex. Hence I insulted Kylo too and I insulted "Harrison Bored" in VI. I mocked Dooku and complained at the clones in II. Sorry I believe characters should be critiqued equally.

 

[DIrishB]

I would if he did ALL of them, Then again I didn't like his character anyway,



Not really. Luke blew up death star in first movie so he had pilot part , Anakin first film had podracing + building c3p0 and People still complained about him so having shooting , piloting , lightsabering , forcing + correcting Han = I would complain. I complained at Anakin in episode 1 when he was a bad character too. so yes there is a "some odd double standard at play." Episode I male lead = everyone complain , Fault episode VII with female and it's wrong!

Mole, no need to be defensive. I'm speaking in generalities here about some BLATANT sexism that does indeed exist regarding some peoples' opinions of the Rey character.

We can both agree there was no huge outcry that Anakin or Luke were overpowered in their trilogies, so why is it such a common complaint about Rey?

That's the issue I'm discussing, not whether you personally liked what Anakin did or didn't do. The issue I'm talking about is the complaint Rey is an overpowered Mary Sue, when that complaint was never really levied with any commonality at Anakin or Luke.

This is the double standard I'm speaking of.

Consider: Anakin is one of the greatest pilots of all time, yet got juked out like a punk by a stray TIE courtesy of Han/Chewie.

Are Han and Chewie overpowered as a result?

The flashbacks though never said it was her remembering and seemed to be more "visions" so I would not count them, The Force abilities as I said felt out of no where

They were very clearly memories, hence her remembering when she first arrived on the planet Jakku as a kid. The other glimpses were all presented the same way, thus it's logical to perceive them as memories.

Really? so in a new hope + Phantom Menace , They both had piloting , shooting guns at military , correcting han solo (who wouldn't even let luke touch much fyi) out lightsabered a force user and more? no they didnt they had 2.

Dude, you're now entering into semantics. But yes, in both TPM and ANH they both piloted ships in amazing feats of military victory, shot at Separatist droids/Stormtroopers, etc.

You're placing these kind of ridiculous limits on her: "ok, it's cool if she does one, maybe two, but three cool things?!? No way. Mary Sue!"

Again, it's obvious Luke trained her. The whole Mary Sue/overpowered argument largely falls apart when you admit that, so I doubt those of that opinion will accept that theory until it's forced down their throats by Episode VIII's release.

I meant IV , if in IX shes grown I have 0 complaint but she has grown too fast ant too convenient

Again, you're ignoring the obvious evidence in favor of what will likely amount to a false narrative to support the "overpowered" argument.

Once you realize she was trained by her father, Luke Skywalker, likely for years, all these overpowered complaints really do pretty much evaporate in regards to the lack of such complaints aimed at Anakin and Luke.

And obviously her character will continue to develop in the next couple films. The large majority of her character development will occur in those films, as she learns of her place in the universe/destiny, limits of her powers and abilities, and just how powerful Ren has become now that he's severed all links to the Light Side.

That's 1 thing and it was mentioned he shot for a living. That's okay. If she had only resisted the mind torture cool , only used saber , cool. or only any of her other feats then cool . But ALL is silly.

Not when you admit she's had Jedi training from Luke. Deep down you know it's true.

Give in to the Dark Side!

Apparently there is "different rules for chicks" As the prequels people hated it anytime Anakin had something similar to luke and hated in phantom menace BUT if we fault Rey her sex means that's the only reason and she must be protected, THAT is sexist. The idea that faulting a woman is due to her sex. Like you cant look past it.

As I said, there was no outcry from a small portion of the fanbase that Luke or Anakin were overpowered.

Rey has the advantage over either in terms of likely (obviously) having had that training. She may also in terms of strength in the Force, we'll see.

But I'm honestly tired of the circular debate and repeating myself.

I complained when Anakain built c3p0 , I complained when he said yippee , I complained when he blew up what i call "my first death star" in episode I. And i complain at Rey but hey that's me I see characters and story not sex. Hence I insulted Kylo too and I insulted "Harrison Bored" in VI. I mocked Dooku and complained at the clones in II. Sorry I believe characters should be critiqued equally.

It honestly seems like you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Having gripes are fine. I have plenty. Not liking it is fine.

That isn't what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the vocal minority who keep pushing the Mary Sue/overpowered argument. I've pointed out now, repeatedly, why ALL indicators point to her being Luke's daughter and being trained (to some degree) in the Force, and thus the Mary Sue argument is likely without merit (but only proven so once Episode VIII comes out).

But again, you're entitled to your opinion. Have at it.

I enjoyed the heck out of the film, personally, and can guess what they're doing with the characters of Rey and Ren.

 

[SSJmole]

Doesn't matter if she's luke's daughter or not it's not revealed in this movie. It's like I can watch spider-man 1 and not think "sandman killed uncle ben" as a movie they need to explain it. As the "we'll explain stuff later" means in this movie she's overpowered out of no where.

The limit is what I put on any character. You cant do it all it's dumb to do that. As for your

"We can both agree there was no huge outcry that Anakin or Luke were overpowered in their trilogies, so why is it such a common complaint about Rey?"

YES THERE was. Not for Luke but can not say no one said "Oh he's whinny" if Anakin expressed emotion, People were outraged they made Anakin the chosen one. People complained about anything prequel era Anakin did. People complained he was OP during movies + clone wars. Personally I liked him and thought he was flawed enough his OP made him far from perfect.

This film with Rey she is OP. Could they explain it later? yes but a first film of a trilogy shouldn't need an explanation that huge to justify a character. As it stands I'd use the Mary sue for her as in this movie there's 0 point to anyone other than her. Finn was a tropper but so? she can out gun him. It just seems silly. She felt too powerful to quick. Like Luke did not feel too powerful in IV or Anakin in I , they did in VI and III. She just felt too good too powerful and had no flaws to me. Can she get better? yes like i said I love prequel Anakin BUT i admit i hate episode I anakin. Maybe I'll like VIII and IX Rey but I dont like VII Rey and I feel people feel shes OP they can say it, and I feel this movie didn't do a good job of finding balance between be chosen by destiny + desert Girl.

 

[vintsukka]

Am I crazy or does this fan theory almost make sense?

http://distractify.com/entertainment/2015/12/22/mariam-kylo-ren-is-sexy-af

EDIT: I have no idea why the url says Kylo Ren is sexy. The article isn't about that.

 

[DIrishB]

Doesn't matter if she's luke's daughter or not it's not revealed in this movie. It's like I can watch spider-man 1 and not think "sandman killed uncle ben" as a movie they need to explain it. As the "we'll explain stuff later" means in this movie she's overpowered out of no where.

The limit is what I put on any character. You cant do it all it's dumb to do that. As for your

"We can both agree there was no huge outcry that Anakin or Luke were overpowered in their trilogies, so why is it such a common complaint about Rey?"

YES THERE was. Not for Luke but can not say no one said "Oh he's whinny" if Anakin expressed emotion, People were outraged they made Anakin the chosen one. People complained about anything prequel era Anakin did. People complained he was OP during movies + clone wars. Personally I liked him and thought he was flawed enough his OP made him far from perfect.

This film with Rey she is OP. Could they explain it later? yes but a first film of a trilogy shouldn't need an explanation that huge to justify a character. As it stands I'd use the Mary sue for her as in this movie there's 0 point to anyone other than her. Finn was a tropper but so? she can out gun him. It just seems silly. She felt too powerful to quick. Like Luke did not feel too powerful in IV or Anakin in I , they did in VI and III. She just felt too good too powerful and had no flaws to me. Can she get better? yes like i said I love prequel Anakin BUT i admit i hate episode I anakin. Maybe I'll like VIII and IX Rey but I dont like VII Rey and I feel people feel shes OP they can say it, and I feel this movie didn't do a good job of finding balance between be chosen by destiny + desert Girl.

Dude... this will be the last time I say this as I've repeated it several times.

This trilogy will likely follow the original trilogy in many aspects, as has already been shown in TFA.

This film DID heavily imply her past and training in the Force. The next film will merely confirm it and expound on the details some. It'll also reveal the familial link between Luke and Rey just as Empire (the second film in that trilogy) revealed the Vader and Luke connection. You're faulting this film for not giving all the answers flat out, when it shouldn't... and it already heavily implied the stuff I've been repeatedly saying anyway.

When she has to go up against Kylo Ren at full strength, she'll be faced with a similar challenge and defeat that Luke experienced in Empire. Just let them get there.

She's not overpowered, shes a Skywalker with a very likely fair amount of Jedi training in various techniques, just as Kylo is, though also trained in Dark Side/Sith approach... remember, he was seriously wounded by a bowcaster bolt, so stop devaluing and realize Rey probably would have been killed if Ren hadn't been SHOT with a BOWCASTER, because Kylo likely DID have more training/experience overall and was versed in both Light and Dark Side approaches. One on one she wouldn't have been ready to face Ren, and probably won't be able to successfully until Episode IX. So really, relax, the evidence has been heavily implied if not laid out directly under our noses.

I think they did a superb job of dropping hints about her past without giving it away or ruining surprise in next film, as they should. They SHOULD have kept a few lingering questions as they did. As a result most can't wait to see the next one to see those questions answered, so it did its job.

 

[SSJmole]

That's fine that you think that. As I keep saying to me they didnt confirm or hint at anything and the "wait and see" is lazy. Also people cant argue "This trilogy will likely follow the original trilogy in many aspects" then complain when she is compared to Luke who in the first film did nothing impressive and even blowing up the death star he would have died if Han had not come back.

It's lazy writing to me and to me she felt OP. Sorry if she didnt to you but as I keep pointing everyone complained over and over about prequel Anakin been OP and hating everything he did, Rey can be critiqued the exact same way. The "wait and see" lazyness is why i dont want marvel's agents of shield as all they do is say "the series will have something important ..... later" and dont work on the now.


Copying of episode IV , complaining about the OPness of the main hero, not liking the villians ect... ALL happened during prequels too. Only difference was it was somehow cool to hate the prequels and cool to say this is flawless

 

[DIrishB]

That's fine that you think that. As I keep saying to me they didnt confirm or hint at anything and the "wait and see" is lazy.

I don't think intentionally holding off on that revelation (despite the overwhelming hints to it) is "lazy". I think it's calculated and makes perfect sense. They already gave us the answer, you just refuse to accept that since it really makes your argument fall apart, and I get that.

But when Episode VIII releases I'm totally pulling a "I told you so".

Also people cant argue "This trilogy will likely follow the original trilogy in many aspects" then complain when she is compared to Luke who in the first film did nothing impressive and even blowing up the death star he would have died if Han had not come back.

Right. And Rey would likely have died had Chewie not shot Ren with a Bowcaster, and had Finn not distracted/occupied Ren while she was knocked out.

Same thing, done in different ways, if you really think about it.

It's lazy writing to me and to me she felt OP.

Lazy writing would've been to explain all of that through expository dialogue, before its time and forced into this film.

It ultimately would've felt out of place and ruined any potential suspense/mystery/questions like this film set up.

By your metric, any film that leaves lingering questions for a sequel is lazy? So The Godfather, A New Hope, etc are films utilizing "lazy writing"?

Sorry if she didnt to you but as I keep pointing everyone complained over and over about prequel Anakin been OP and hating everything he did, Rey can be critiqued the exact same way.

Not once did I ever hear that complaint. Considering he was Anakin Skywalker, father of Luke Skywalker, the "chosen one", etc. I haven't heard the mass outcry of "Anakin is overpowered" or "Luke is overpowered" from the fans like I did with Rey.

The "wait and see" lazyness is why i dont want marvel's agents of shield as all they do is say "the series will have something important ..... later" and dont work on the now.

So do the Marvel movies. I mean, they've been teasing Thanos for years. Is that lazy? No. It's dropping hints and building momentum. Just as TFA did with Rey's past.

Copying of episode IV , complaining about the OPness of the main hero, not liking the villians ect... ALL happened during prequels too. Only difference was it was somehow cool to hate the prequels and cool to say this is flawless

The only complaints I hear about prequels regularly is that they're disappointing films with horrible dialogue and stilted performances. And that's true.

That criticism doesn't really apply to TFA (though maybe you'll argue otherwise).

As someone who spends a fair amount of time on Star Wars forums researching info to update the Star Wars timeline I do, trust me, I'm not speaking without knowing what I'm talking about. No one says Anakin was overpowered. It's just generally accepted he was the failed chosen one, Luke was a path for redemption, which didn't go all that well. Rey is another chance at that redemption and balance.

You're entitled to your opinion, but we both know how Episode VIII will reveal exactly what I'm saying.

So I ask you, if we find out Rey is indeed trained in the Force by Luke when she was a kid in next movie (mind control, lightsaber dueling, Force Push, all the other more well known Jedi powers), is she still overpowered or a Skywalker trained in the ways of the Force?

And if she is trained in the Force, is she overpowered or powered correctly based on her lineage and training?

 

[Captain Canuck]

So I've skimmed this argument, and here's my take.

It's fine, or even great that Rey is a strong and amazing character. I think so for two reasons:
1) There is clearly more going on with her than they have revealed. Probably previous training that is awakening in her, as DIB is saying. Whether or not she is anyone's daughter, she is clearly a powerful jedi that was sent into hiding after Kylo Ren turned and started hunting Jedi.
2) Star Wars PURPOSEFULLY gave us a really really strong female character. They made fun of the trope that they have used in the past, of the females needing rescued. She's capable, smart, and way more skilled than she should be (see point one). That's good. It's on purpose. It's not lazy. She's not a Mary Sue, she's a Jason Bourne.

On the other hand, here is the problem with the way Rey was portrayed: She didn't have a character arc in THIS MOVIE. She, like the rest of the characters were just teased and introduced. They needed to spend a bit more time explicitly asking the question, "who is Rey?" and then actually given us some sort of answer at the end. Even if Rey had wondered out loud, "how am I doing this?!" And then when she got to Luke, he had said something like "I've been waiting for you Rey, it's time to continue your training." That would have helped a lot.

Overall, Episode VII doesn't stand on it's own as a coherent story. At all. Without the original trilogy, you don't care about the old characters. They didn't do justice in introducing them. Without sequels to this movie, there is no arc for any of the new characters besides Kylo Ren (which was well done). Nothing was explained. The plot was very thin, and recycled. The movie was carried by spectacle, fast-paced action, humour, and fun characters that we're left wanting to get to know more, but don't really know at all. Which, I guess is fine, but it was ultimately dissatisfying for me.

Along those lines (this has nothing to do with Rey), I wish they had given us a bit more context of what was going on. It's fine to drop us into this world with no idea of what's happening if this is the first time, but I went to see this movie because I'm invested in the larger narrative. So just show me a bit more of the New Republic and explain that these Imperial empathizers have risen up in the past 30 years and are challenging the New Republic for power. Explain the relationship there, just a bit. Why is there a resistance against the First Order, but not a war between the NR and the FO?

At the end of the day, Abrams is a tv director. And this movie was the pilot for his new series. When the whole trilogy is finished, I'm sure it will be awesome.

EDIT: but do you guys seriously like episode 2 more than episode 1? Episode 1 isn't good, but Episode 2 is just PAINFUL!

 

[DIrishB]

So I've skimmed this argument, and here's my take.

It's fine, or even great that Rey is a strong and amazing character. I think so for two reasons:
1) There is clearly more going on with her than they have revealed. Probably previous training that is awakening in her, as DIB is saying. Whether or not she is anyone's daughter, she is clearly a powerful jedi that was sent into hiding after Kylo Ren turned and started hunting Jedi.
2) Star Wars PURPOSEFULLY gave us a really really strong female character. They made fun of the trope that they have used in the past, of the females needing rescued. She's capable, smart, and way more skilled than she should be (see point one). That's good. It's on purpose. It's not lazy. She's not a Mary Sue, she's a Jason Bourne.

On the other hand, here is the problem with the way Rey was portrayed: She didn't have a character arc in THIS MOVIE. She, like the rest of the characters were just teased and introduced. They needed to spend a bit more time explicitly asking the question, "who is Rey?" and then actually given us some sort of answer at the end. Even if Rey had wondered out loud, "how am I doing this?!" And then when she got to Luke, he had said something like "I've been waiting for you Rey, it's time to continue your training." That would have helped a lot.

Overall, Episode VII doesn't stand on it's own as a coherent story. At all. Without the original trilogy, you don't care about the old characters. They didn't do justice in introducing them. Without sequels to this movie, there is no arc for any of the new characters besides Kylo Ren (which was well done). Nothing was explained. The plot was very thin, and recycled. The movie was carried by spectacle, fast-paced action, humour, and fun characters that we're left wanting to get to know more, but don't really know at all. Which, I guess is fine, but it was ultimately dissatisfying for me.

Along those lines (this has nothing to do with Rey), I wish they had given us a bit more context of what was going on. It's fine to drop us into this world with no idea of what's happening if this is the first time, but I went to see this movie because I'm invested in the larger narrative. So just show me a bit more of the New Republic and explain that these Imperial empathizers have risen up in the past 30 years and are challenging the New Republic for power. Explain the relationship there, just a bit. Why is there a resistance against the First Order, but not a war between the NR and the FO?

At the end of the day, Abrams is a tv director. And this movie was the pilot for his new series. When the whole trilogy is finished, I'm sure it will be awesome.

EDIT: but do you guys seriously like episode 2 more than episode 1? Episode 1 isn't good, but Episode 2 is just PAINFUL!

I can agree with that mostly. But I disagree Rey didn't experience any character development or an arc in the film. It wasn't detailed or original of expansive, but as a cyclical saga in many ways that's to be expected in the into chapters (which TFA was). She discovered her abilities and got swept up in larger events just as Anakin and Luke did. Inherently, how was Luke's or Anakin's arcs in ANH or TPM superior or better?

While I agree this film capitalized on the original trilogy stars, I think that was largely necessary, at probably resulted in a better film in terms of its bridge aspects between the OT and sequel trilogy. The Prequel Trilogy did the same, and as a continuous saga about a specific family and their friends and enemies, well, it's to be expected.

No doubt the next film will heavily feature Luke in a sort of Obi-Wan/Yoda role (Rey has sought Luke out on a distant world much like Luke sought out Yoda), and I have no doubt her training will continue, reluctantly for Luke, but realizing it's necessary for balance in the Force. He knows she'll need more training to go up against Kylo Ren at full strength.

It's the first film in the trilogy. We didn't have anywhere close to all the answers after ANH so like I said, I think once people get answers about her past in Episode VIII the Mary Sue/overpowered accusations will hopefully largely end. The main crux of that argument is that her powers "came out of nowhere" despite the heavy evidence showing otherwise, that she witnessed Ben Solo's/Kylo Ren's betrayal and slaughter of the trainees at Luke's academy, and that she herself is a Skywalker.

I don't think she's Han and Leia's daughter as they reacted like family, but not necessarily parents. There was no longing or heavy emotion from either Han or Leia in their scenes with Rey, and they had to know who she was, which indicates they're not her parents. I can definitely see them as her aunt and uncle, though. Protective, approving, familial, but not parental. It's a noticeable difference.

Yet Luke's look at the end, that spoke volume. I got chills not only from seeing him again, but the look he gave, it seemed to me to show a lot of indicators of a huge connection between them. Given her visions from touching the lightsaber, and the way Han and Leia seem unlikely to be her parents, Luke is the most logical conclusion when weighing all the evidence presented in TFA.

I think the main saga films (Episodes I-IX) have and will follow variations of the same formula. The Anthology/spin-off films will allow them to get a bit more experimental and expand on specific character back stories, and take the films into more unique niches within the SW universe. I for one look forward to films centered on smugglers, bounty hunters, spies, etc besides the usual Jedi-focus of the main films. That said I'm sure there will also be Jedi-focused anthology films at some point as well.

 

[SSJmole]

EDIT: but do you guys seriously like episode 2 more than episode 1? Episode 1 isn't good, but Episode 2 is just PAINFUL!

What can I say I have a fett-ish for bounty hunters!


No joking episode 1 had to much Jar-Jar , Kid Anakin and felt just bad to me. Episode 2 Anakin was more fun like Padme/Anakin was great, Obi/Anakin scenes like "you'll be the death of me" were great, Jango fett was awesome , Obi vs Jango is still one of my favourite fights, and overall the film just felt great. My only complaints with II is I don't like Dooku and yoda jumping around then walking away on stick is silly lol

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Edit: also this guy explains my Rey thing better than me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS6TlqgLIQ&html5=1 note he has other videos about it too. Also note I didnt search this out I followed him since his "wrestling isn't wrestling" (check that out its awesome)

 

[DIrishB]

Edit: also this guy explains my Rey thing better than me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS6TlqgLIQ&html5=1 note he has other videos about it too. Also note I didnt search this out I followed him since his "wrestling isn't wrestling" (check that out its awesome)

There's so much I can pick apart about that response.

Again, it's ignoring the blatantly obvious clues in the film itself to make a point. It's not a false narrative yet, but it will be proven as such when Episode VIII is released.

Second, while he's correct it's not a TV series, Star Wars is arguably one of the most episodic (see what I did there) film series out there, with a continuing soap operatic tone in space. So, the point he's trying to make about everything needing to be done or established in the first film is bunk.

Now, he mentions "stakes" and how Rey was never in danger. He makes a somewhat fair point but again, ignores the blatantly obvious clues given in TFA that refute it as to WHY she's so capable.

First, Rey grew up from age 5-7 or so alone on a desert world, scavenging for parts to trade for food. Luke also grew up on a desert planet but was raised by his Aunt and Uncle, on a remote moisture farm. Even Anakin, who grew up a slave, likely had an easier childhood than Rey. So, her physicality makes perfect sense. One would need to learn to handle themselves physically in order to survive.

Again, Rey is likely comparable to a mid level Jedi Padawan in terms of training (think maybe Ahsoka in early Clone Wars). She's a Skywalker so the skills are inherently strong.

He also mistakes strength with capability. Kylo Ren is obviously stronger in the Force in some ways, but his internal conflict and clinging to the Light didn't allow him to achieve his full potential.

I don't know, the entire thing was laced with a large degree of BS. He mentions how Finn almost defeated Ren in the lightsaber battle. That's complete crap. Complete. Finn was holding on for dear life.

Also, conveniently no mention of how Ren had been SHOT WITH A BOWCASTER.

It's this selective approach to the Mary Sue assertion that pisses me off.

When you have to rely on selective picking and choosing of certain aspects while unfairly and intentionally ignoring others that refute your point/assertion, that doesn't speak to me of conviction.

But Landis has always been a hyperbolic sensationalist.

 

[ProjectX2]

Max Landis is the worst.

 

[SSJmole]

It's not ignoring or "selective approach" As I got they may have reasons for everything later and I got that they may have excuses for every complaint. However I don't like characters like that. I want see growth and feel a danger no matter who. Like dragonball would have been **** if goku started as Super Saiyan god or a new Hope would have been crap if Luke was ROTJ Luke

I get there is no changing of your mind and thats cool. But there is nothing you can say to me to convince me what I saw what was a great three dimensional character that was not just a "Mary sue" There is also no reason to throw around terms like "sexist" as was done, when we faulted male characters equally too. andd quiet frankly it pisses me off that too if you insult a character you think is bad they had better damn sure be the same sex , race and sexuality as you or the SJW have a field day telling us to "check our privilege" or something. I mean Kylo Ren also sucked as I stated but i noticed no one complained about that oh yeah i forgot he's male so I can.

I think she was a bad character, I mentioned the film was not the worst SW movie however and at the end of the day if i spent £15 to go see something I'm entitled to say if i don't like it. So I'm sorta done with this debate as you liked her and that's fine. I thought she was the biggest mary sue since terminator genisys rewrote history to make Kyle Reese the hero (seriously WTF was that? He's stronger , has more muscle and makes sarah connor not the hero anymore). but that is ok too as it's just how I feel.

I posted that video not to continue this pointless debate but rather I felt he explained it better as I know i may be explaining myself wrong. I hope people watch the film and either enjoy it or hate it on their own not because internet tells them.

Also Rouge One could be fun

 

[Captain Canuck]

I can agree with that mostly. But I disagree Rey didn't experience any character development or an arc in the film. It wasn't detailed or original of expansive, but as a cyclical saga in many ways that's to be expected in the into chapters (which TFA was). She discovered her abilities and got swept up in larger events just as Anakin and Luke did. Inherently, how was Luke's or Anakin's arcs in ANH or TPM superior or better?

Luke is a good pilot. He finds out his father was a jedi, gets a bit of training to experience the force, and then that connection with the force helps him destroy the death star. He doesn't fight Darth Vader in the first movie. He doesn't stop Darth Vader from reading his mind or even read Darth Vader's mind. He doesn't use the Jedi mind trick.

Anakin's arc is admittedly much more ridiculous. He is a good pilot and a tech genius. You find out he was apparently from a virgin birth and is obviously really strong with the force, which he demonstrates by being intuitive and a good pilot. Again, he never fights Darth Maul or shows prowess using mind tricks. (I'm not claiming that Anakin had a good story arc in the prequels).

Rey is a good pilot and a tech genius and tough and resourceful and never needs rescued. She has no idea who her parents are. She has no idea what the force. Luke's lightsaber calls to her and she doesn't know why. She bests Rylo Ken with mind stuff and a lightsaber (yes, I know he was injured). She uses a mind trick and it works. Clearly the force is strong with her, but not only that, she knows how to use it.

You're left with one of two responses: 1) That's ridiculous, how can she do that? This character is too perfect, or 2) she must have been trained before. The second response is probably correct, but it's an assumption. I really don't think there were heavy hints, as you put it. Based on the information given, you could just as easily conclude she just is uber gifted and can use the force. To be honest, it never even occurred to me that she had been trained and mind wiped until you mentioned it here. I don't think that's the obvious answer, because other reviews have come up with other explanations (she's so strong with the force that when Rylo tried to read her mind she reacted and pushed him out but by a fluke got into his head too, and when she did that she pulled some of his training out.) But I do like the prior training theory, so I'm going with it. I really hope you're right.

Episode 2 Anakin was more fun like Padme/Anakin was great, Obi/Anakin scenes like "you'll be the death of me" were great, Jango fett was awesome , Obi vs Jango is still one of my favourite fights, and overall the film just felt great.

Hey man, I'm glad you like it. I know other people do too. And I know that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But I actually get this irrational anger towards people who like the prequels. Yesterday, my brother-in-law told me that the originals are boring and that the prequels are better because they're more fast paced. It was a tense few minutes as I sorted through my emotions. (I know it's wrong. But it happens. I'm working on it.) That said, as calmly as I can, I totally disagree with your analysis of Episode II. Those are all the things that made Episode II dreadful and hard to watch. Anakin was whiney and wooden. The romance between Padme and Anakin was so ham fisted and terrible I don't know what else to say about it. Obi-Wan is made to look like a loser and a nag and his relationship with Anakin doesn't ever once look like friendship. Jango Fett was cool, but it was too much fan service and it hurts the mystery of Boba Fett. While we're at it, the whole Sifo Dyas and the clones thing made no sense.

My only complaints with II is I don't like Dooku and yoda jumping around then walking away on stick is silly lol

I agree with you there. We should never have seen Yoda fighting. It ruins his character.

The only good part about Episode II is the huge battle at the end between the clones/jedi and the droids.

Okay, I'm done. No need to argue Mole. This is just a difference of opinion (and not one that really fits in this thread). And I'm not actually mad at you. I was mad at my brother-in-law though. :lol:

 

[Captain Canuck]

hahahahaha, now we know why he turned!