Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens Discussion [SPOILERS]

[DIrishB]

Max Landis is the worst.

Seriously.

It's not ignoring or "selective approach"

That's exactly what it is when he's ignoring the blatantly obvious evidence and reasons for why things happened as they did. I'm not saying it was perfect, only that it was fun and had its reasons (mainly for setting up next film).

He's leaning entirely on selective hyperbole instead of fairly and evenly examining the film. He makes some fair points, yes, but he also makes some ludicrous points and ignores the evidence offered to do so.

That's the definition of a "selective approach", man.

As I got they may have reasons for everything later and I got that they may have excuses for every complaint. However I don't like characters like that. I want see growth and feel a danger no matter who. Like dragonball would have been **** if goku started as Super Saiyan god or a new Hope would have been crap if Luke was ROTJ Luke

As I said, I saw growth in Rey as a character. We'll see that growth continue as the trilogy does.

I get there is no changing of your mind and thats cool. But there is nothing you can say to me to convince me what I saw what was a great three dimensional character that was not just a "Mary sue"

That's fine. All I ask is you use fair and reasoned arguments to draw your conclusion. Ignoring the evidence offered in the film doesn't allow for that.

There is also no reason to throw around terms like "sexist" as was done,

I never once called anyone "sexist". Perhaps you should go back and read the thread again. Not once.

when we faulted male characters equally too.

I'm still waiting to hear about how Anakin was overpowered from Star Wars fans...

andd quiet frankly it pisses me off that too if you insult a character you think is bad they had better damn sure be the same sex , race and sexuality as you or the SJW have a field day telling us to "check our privilege" or something. I mean Kylo Ren also sucked as I stated but i noticed no one complained about that oh yeah i forgot he's male so I can.

No. Please, stop with playing the victim. No one called you sexist.

All I have been doing is forcing the issue of why Rey is or isn't overpowered and having a discussion using the evidence offered by the film as the basis.

I'm not ignoring aspects of it because it doesn't support my opinion.

I think she was a bad character, I mentioned the film was not the worst SW movie however and at the end of the day if i spent £15 to go see something I'm entitled to say if i don't like it.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. I have no problem with your opinion, only the selective and illogical process you and Landis seem to be using to arrive at it.

Again, there's no reason to play the victim, Mole. No one is attacking you or name calling. I'm debating what was shown and what wasn't, and why, and how that relates to explaining Rey's Force powers, how she was able to beat Ren at all (he was shot with a Bowcaster), etc.

So I'm sorta done with this debate as you liked her and that's fine. I thought she was the biggest mary sue since terminator genisys rewrote history to make Kyle Reese the hero (seriously WTF was that? He's stronger , has more muscle and makes sarah connor not the hero anymore). but that is ok too as it's just how I feel.

Well Genisys was horrible so who takes that seriously?

I posted that video not to continue this pointless debate but rather I felt he explained it better as I know i may be explaining myself wrong. I hope people watch the film and either enjoy it or hate it on their own not because internet tells them.

I get why you posted it, but the problem wasn't how you were explaining your position, or even that you came to that conclusion.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, I'm just asking you to be fair with it and actually utilize the evidence presented.

So, when Landis indicates Finn almost beat the crap out of Ren, right there his entire argument falls apart because that's a complete lie. Not even close.

Also Rouge One could be fun

I'm sure they'll all be fun.

 

[DIrishB]

Luke is a good pilot. He finds out his father was a jedi, gets a bit of training to experience the force, and then that connection with the force helps him destroy the death star. He doesn't fight Darth Vader in the first movie. He doesn't stop Darth Vader from reading his mind or even read Darth Vader's mind. He doesn't use the Jedi mind trick.

Anakin's arc is admittedly much more ridiculous. He is a good pilot and a tech genius. You find out he was apparently from a virgin birth and is obviously really strong with the force, which he demonstrates by being intuitive and a good pilot. Again, he never fights Darth Maul or shows prowess using mind tricks. (I'm not claiming that Anakin had a good story arc in the prequels).

Rey is a good pilot and a tech genius and tough and resourceful and never needs rescued. She has no idea who her parents are. She has no idea what the force. Luke's lightsaber calls to her and she doesn't know why. She bests Rylo Ken with mind stuff and a lightsaber (yes, I know he was injured). She uses a mind trick and it works. Clearly the force is strong with her, but not only that, she knows how to use it.

You're left with one of two responses: 1) That's ridiculous, how can she do that? This character is too perfect, or 2) she must have been trained before. The second response is probably correct, but it's an assumption. I really don't think there were heavy hints, as you put it.

If you think about it there are. Rey touched the lightsaber and saw the flashes of Ben Solo's turn and slaughtering of the Jedi trainees at Luke's academy. That seems to indicate she witness those events. If she witnessed those events she was there, and why else would someone confirmed to be strong in the Force be at Luke's school other than training? I mean, sure, she could just have been visiting, but training there seems more likely.

I don't think those were "visions" so much as repressed memories resurfacing. Hence her remembering arriving on Jakku as a child, etc.

We saw that she's old enough when she arrives on Jakku to remember who her mother and father were (unless she's never met them, which is possible, but given the Skywalker family saga it's 99% she's Luke's daughter), as she was around 6-8 years old if I recall correctly.

So, either she really never did know her parents, or Luke mind wiped her memories of her past to protect her/part of sending her into hiding.

Based on the information given, you could just as easily conclude she just is uber gifted and can use the force.

You COULD draw that conclusion if you ignore her visions/memories. But to ignore them is ludicrous and an example of that selective approach I was talking about, picking and choosing which aspects you choose to acknowledge in support of the already drawn conclusion she's a "Mary Sue".

To be honest, it never even occurred to me that she had been trained and mind wiped until you mentioned it here.

I'd be really surprised if that doesn't end up being the case.

I don't think that's the obvious answer, because other reviews have come up with other explanations (she's so strong with the force that when Rylo tried to read her mind she reacted and pushed him out but by a fluke got into his head too, and when she did that she pulled some of his training out.) But I do like the prior training theory, so I'm going with it. I really hope you're right.

Honestly, her pulling info out of Kylo's head is more Mary Sue than anything. I'd actually agree with Mole if that ends up being the case. However, I don't think Arndt and the next films' scriptwriters intended or will take that route. I hope not. God that would be horrible.

Hey man, I'm glad you like it. I know other people do too. And I know that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But I actually get this irrational anger towards people who like the prequels. Yesterday, my brother-in-law told me that the originals are boring and that the prequels are better because they're more fast paced. It was a tense few minutes as I sorted through my emotions. (I know it's wrong. But it happens. I'm working on it.) That said, as calmly as I can, I totally disagree with your analysis of Episode II. Those are all the things that made Episode II dreadful and hard to watch. Anakin was whiney and wooden. The romance between Padme and Anakin was so ham fisted and terrible I don't know what else to say about it. Obi-Wan is made to look like a loser and a nag and his relationship with Anakin doesn't ever once look like friendship. Jango Fett was cool, but it was too much fan service and it hurts the mystery of Boba Fett. While we're at it, the whole Sifo Dyas and the clones thing made no sense.

I agree with you there. We should never have seen Yoda fighting. It ruins his character.

The only good part about Episode II is the huge battle at the end between the clones/jedi and the droids.

Okay, I'm done. No need to argue Mole. This is just a difference of opinion (and not one that really fits in this thread). And I'm not actually mad at you. I was mad at my brother-in-law though. :lol:

^THIS.

 

[Captain Canuck]

If you think about it there are. Rey touched the lightsaber and saw the flashes of Ben Solo's turn and slaughtering of the Jedi trainees at Luke's academy. That seems to indicate she witness those events. If she witnessed those events she was there, and why else would someone confirmed to be strong in the Force be at Luke's school other than training? I mean, sure, she could just have been visiting, but training there seems more likely.

I don't think those were "visions" so much as repressed memories resurfacing. Hence her remembering arriving on Jakku as a child, etc.

Huh, I don't actually remember that being in the vision. I must have looked down or something. I'm going to watch it again with my wife. I'll re-evaluate at that point.

 

[SSJmole]

I never once called anyone "sexist". Perhaps you should go back and read the thread again. Not once.

Really? let's see I said

Rey - Way to perfect. I don't want to use the term "Mary sue" as that's thrown around way too much so i'll say "Bland" as she did force feats faster and better than Luke (fair enough he wasn't the best) and Anakin (THE CHOSEN ONE) and she had no flaw. Luke was too headstrong at times or just too naive, Anakin messed up a lot. With Rey, better pilot than Han, Better force than any rookie in the films, Picks up gun and fires better than finn.

Because I felt she was a Mary sue then 4 posts later

"Mary Sue" (the battlecry of angry men everywhere it seems in relation to this movie).

Followed by

Here's the thing: no one would would be complaining if Ben Solo had been the one out piloting Han Solo, or being a better tech head or lightsaber dueler, etc.

Yeah lets see

Definition of sexism. 1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women. 2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex.

so yeah saying it's "the battle cry of angry men" and saying if it was male characters no one would complain might not be saying the exact words but come on you have to see how easy is to read that "you hate her because she's female" which THAT is what made me angry and Yes that why i was snarky in pointing out I insulted kylo too no one bats an eye insult the female and yes it felt very SJW. Just saying that that felt like it yes and I hope you can see why mate.

 

[DIrishB]

Really? let's see I said





Because I felt she was a Mary sue then 4 posts later



Followed by




Yeah lets see

so yeah saying it's "the battle cry of angry men" and saying if it was male characters no one would complain might not be saying the exact words but come on you have to see how easy is to read that "you hate her because she's female" which THAT is what made me angry and Yes that why i was snarky in pointing out I insulted kylo too no one bats an eye insult the female and yes it felt very SJW. Just saying that that felt like it yes and I hope you can see why mate.

Mole, you're misinterpreting what I said.

When I responded to your post, I was just coming off reading a bunch of blatantly sexist crap about Rey in a Facebook group I belong to, when I responded to that. And yes, it was blatantly sexist, involving similar dismissive attitude on behalf of a lot of the same male complainers in the same manner as was employed against Mad Max - Fury Road earlier this year with the Furiosa character, or the Hunger Games films, etc.

Apparently it's impossible to have a capable female character without accusations of her being overpowered.

Yet there are multiple male characters who are comparably overpowered who don't get that scrutiny.

Isn't that in some way, shape, or form, at its very base, a form of sexism or chauvinism? At its base there seems to be some double standard at play.

Never once did I call you sexist. I thought it was clear I was referring to the dismissive attitude employed at large, not necessarily individuals. I apologize if you took it personally.

I'm not the type to beat around the bush. If I actually thought you were sexist, Mole, I'd outright say it.

That said, I've been very clear with my assertion that those criticizing are doing so in a selective manner and ignoring evidence that indicates she had Force training.

Your argument to that is to either ignore it completely or to complain that it should've been answered in this film.

It's become a circular debate and isn't worth continuing.

When Episode VIII releases and confirms my theories about Rey being trained in the ways of the Force by Luke, being his daughter, and being memory wiped to protect her from Ren, I'm going to point the finger and pull an "I told you so."

We'll leave it at that. I'm tired of repeating myself and saying the same exact thing in different ways to drive it across, and then having those points be completely ignored in favor of pushing a likely false narrative.

 

[wyokid]

So we're in agreement. Rey is a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens, but most likely not in Star Wars as a whole and that sexism is still a problem in today's society.

 

[SSJmole]

So we're in agreement. Rey is a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens, but most likely not in Star Wars as a whole and that sexism is still a problem in today's society.

Yes and no. Yes to her been on in the force awakens, Yes to the fact the'll shoehorn a way to justify it later and Yes to sexisim BUT it's not all women been treated as double. Example?

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=why+superman+is+the+worst+superhero

lets try supergirl

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=why+supergirl+is+the+worst+superhero


Oh! the male one has character sucks pages and the fame one? mostly the show and movie. Interesting .... Superman is both male yet always complained he's OP. Supergirl is female with same powers and doesn'r get **** and that's part of my point of it exists both ways lets not pretend it doesn't I mean anything with a male in it now ois now seen as sexist even toy story http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...toy-story-3-is-carelessly-sexist-2011742.html

Hence my SJW rant before as not just on here but in general iy's now "cool" to say something sexist as a result people want those cool points for saying it and times when something IS sexist gets lost in the shuffle.


As for DIrishB feel free to pull an "pull an "I told you so."" my point was I interpreted it differently thus felt bad. Like http://screenrant.com/star-wars-7-rey-force-vision-explained/ see they cant figure it out either so its not black or white. I can respect you have a theory but it's not 100% guaranteed so with out it leaves bad taste in my mouth it's all good sorry if i misunderstood why said that soon after my post but I can accept its not all pointed at me. I'm not sure what the future brings. I used anakin as parallel as he was awesome in sequals and i hope rey is too. As i want to like her.

 

[DIrishB]

So we're in agreement. Rey is a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens, but most likely not in Star Wars as a whole and that sexism is still a problem in today's society.

No, because she's not a Mary Sue, she's a Jason Bourne, as has been said.

 

[DIrishB]

Rey's visions: (when she touches Anakin/Luke's lightsaber) she's in a hallway, likely the Jedi academy of Luke's as the hallway immediately begins crumbling and then we see Luke kneeling next to R2-D2; it begins raining and we see Kylo Ren's betrayal and slaughter of the other trainees by the Knights of Ren, we cut to Rey as a child when she's first left on Jakku, crying "come back!" to a ship leaving (presumably carrying one of or both parents, maybe Luke, maybe not)... all of these seem presented as memories of Rey's.

It then cuts to a quick vision of Rey and Ren in the snowy forest on Starkiller base, really the only bit of foreshadowing in any of the visions.

Immediately following Maz says "That lightsaber was Luke's, and his father's before him, and now, it calls to you."

Also, Rey refused the lightsaber and accompanying destiny at first. She also continually was afraid to leave Jakku and wanted to return to pointlessly wait for her parents. She refused to touch the lightsaber ever again, and ran from the palace (and her destiny). After her encounter and capture by Ren, is when she accepted that destiny. Simple, cliched, and troped to death, sure, but still a character arc.

 

[wyokid]

No, because she's not a Mary Sue, she's a Jason Bourne, as has been said.

You make it sound like I've seen a Bourne film :|

 

[DIrishB]

You make it sound like I've seen a Bourne film :|

Which is weird, because you make it sound like you've seen a Mary Sue film.

 

[Captain Canuck]

You make it sound like I've seen a Bourne film :|

You need to watch the trilogy with Matt Damon. Stat!

 

[wyokid]

So how would you guys feel if Poe and Finn hooked up? I feel like it's about time that we had some headlining gay characters in the franchise and an interracial gay couple definitely would make headlines. Rey and Kylo, assuming they aren't related, could hook up too. I see no downside to this.

Which is weird, because you make it sound like you've seen a Mary Sue film.

But I've seen all the Twilight films.

You need to watch the trilogy with Matt Damon. Stat!

Eh. I'm in no rush. I'm not really an action movie kind of guy. I just watched Inside Llewyn Davis which has Poe and Kylo Ren in it. It's a very quiet and surprisingly depressing film by the Coen brothers. Very good.

 

[wyokid]

Column - Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why

The simple answer is that "Star Wars: The Force Awakens," is not very good. It's professionally made in the sense that it displays an industrial level of Quality Control. But it's depressingly unimaginative and dull in long stretches, and -- crucially -- reproduces George Lucas' original 1977 movie slavishly almost to the point of plagiarism.

This isn't to say that it's not an enjoyable way to spend a couple of hours. If you're among the millions who plainly have done so, bless your heart. The issue, however, is whether "The Force Awakens" even deserves to be considered as a movie, because it's not. It's the anchoring element of a vast commercial program, painstakingly factory-made for maximal audience appeal, which means maximal inoffensiveness. The result tells us a lot about the state of entertainment today, and about the future of Hollywood.

Modern blockbusters are not enjoyable the way the original "Star Wars" was, because they come at you as artifacts of high finance. Sitting in the theater at "Avatar," I felt like I was being pounded into submission by a giant hedge fund. Watching "The Force Awakens," I felt as though I was being shown a trailer for the next four movies in the series. Except that trailers aren't normally two hours long and you don't have to pay $12.50 to see them.

"The Force Awakens" will reinforce even more strongly a blockbuster, sequel-oriented style of moviemaking and marketing that has sapped Hollywood of its creative energies. Why be creative when that will merely interfere with merchandising, and when recycling is more dependably profitable?

It was said of George Lucas that he originally envisioned "Star Wars" as the first of a trilogy, which became reimagined as a series of three trilogies, and ended with two. Now we're at seven films, and anyone who thinks "Star Wars" will end at nine features doesn't know their Disney. The company, you see, is not really a movie studio, but an entertainment conglomerate. For Disney, "Star Wars" will be the gift that keeps giving. You, the consumer, are the mark who keeps paying.

"Star Wars" sequels, prequels, and requels are destined to be part of moviemaking into the infinite future. One can envision Hollywood eventually turning out only two products: "Star Wars" movies and James Bond movies, each periodically "rebooted" for a new generation of customers by casting the latest new young stars in new costumes facing the same old perils and uttering the same old quips, with every other vestige of creative originality relegated to the void and forgotten.

I agree with this entire article. This movie was as soulless as The Amazing Spider-Man 2 only this had people with talent and Disney dollars behind it.

 

[ProjectX2]

I will simply respond with this.

 

[wyokid]

I will simply respond with this.

Okay, I can agree to that. The whole "admit you're wrong" thing is incredibly rude. I still don't think it was a great film though. Certainly not a 94%, maybe a 60-70%.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I still don't think it was a great film though. Certainly not a 94%, maybe a 60-70%.

I'm with you on that. I also mostly agreed with the parts of the article you posted. Episode 7 wasn't a movie that stood on its own, it was a pilot episode.

 

[wyokid]

I'm with you on that. I also mostly agreed with the parts of the article you posted. Episode 7 wasn't a movie that stood on its own, it was a pilot episode.

Which, in my opinion, movies shouldn't be. I'm spending $10 to go to a crowded, smelly, uncomfortable, and all around unpleasant theater to see a complete story. Yes, it may continue at some point, but a film should be stand alone. I see Hollywood going down a path I do not wish to follow. I feel like I'm repeating myself so I'll quit. Just really worried is all.

 

[E]

I'm seeing that a vast majority of negativity around this movie is being conveyed in the most a-holish way possible.

 

[SSJmole]

I'm seeing that a vast majority of negativity around this movie is being conveyed in the most a-holish way possible.

To be fair so is love or defence