Star Trek discussion (Spoilers!)

[E]

This thread is epic.

Yeah.

It probably should have been shut down a few pages back. Not because people were arguing, but because of the sheer amount of nerdiness emanating from the posts. The new name of the site should be "Nerd Central" because basically that's what it has become with this thread.

See, this very thread is a great demonstration of why this movie was great and needed to be made. Look what happens when you throw old school Star Trek into the picture - loser fest.

 

[E]

This is interesting - not sure if someone mentioned or posted it yet...

Star Trek' Writers Reveal The William Shatner Scene That Never Was
'We wanted to really bring him back in the right way,' Roberto Orci says of why the idea never materialized.
By Larry Carroll

SANTA MONICA, California — This past weekend, $76.5 million worth of people saw Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto and Leonard Nimoy onscreen in J.J. Abrams' blockbuster "Star Trek" reboot. The one person they didn't see, however, is larger-than-life "Trek" icon William Shatner.

During the course of the film's production, a bizarre battle of words erupted between Abrams and the 78-year-old original Captain Kirk over a never-filmed, top-secret scene. Recently, we got the spoiler-heavy details on the very different ending once intended to be Nimoy and Shatner's final time together onscreen.

"We did write a Shatner scene," Roberto Orci, one of the film's writers and producers, explained. "And we were ultimately split internally. We didn't want it to be a gimmick; we wanted to really bring him back in the right way."

If you've seen the new "Trek," you know that Nimoy portrays the original Spock in a series of scenes that has the character traveling to an alternate dimension and making contact with younger versions of the Enterprise crew. In one heart-tugging moment, "old" Spock addresses "young" Spock and explains their eventual friendship with Kirk; in the Shatner version, however, young Spock was to be more skeptical.

"Elder Spock tells young Spock, 'I couldn't tell you the truth about what's happening, because if I had, I would have robbed you of the benefit of realizing the greatness that you and Kirk will achieve together — and the amazing friendship that you'll have. You had to discover that for yourself, and I couldn't get in the way of that,' " Orci's writing partner, Alex Kurtzman, revealed. "And in our original version, younger Spock says, 'I'm still not sold.'

"Elder Spock said, 'Well, don't take my word for it,' and he handed him a little disc — a DVD, really — that projected a hologram, and then he walked away. And the hologram was of Kirk," Kurtzman continued. "It would've been Shatner."

The scene was an attempt by the writers to adhere to "Trek" canon — which depicted Shatner's Kirk as being killed in 1994's "Star Trek: Generations" — yet still give him a presence in the film via a final recording he had taped before his death.

"If you follow 'The Next Generation' [TV show], elder Spock went off to Romulus to be an ambassador in two episodes called 'Unification 1' and '2', and [our] idea was that it was a long, long mission, and Kirk would have died by the time he returned to Earth [because they] just wouldn't have the same lifespan," Kurtzman explained of the Vulcan. "And so [this DVD] was essentially Kirk sending Spock a goodbye."

"His final message," Orci interrupted.

"It was a 'happy birthday' message [with Kirk saying], 'This is the last time I'm going to be able to wish you happy birthday, so I want to tell you how much you've meant to me and how amazing it was that we had all these adventures together,' " Kurtzman said of the alternate ending, which would have provided the last act with a powerful voice over the film's final scenes.

"That narrative, that voice-over," Kurtzman said, "became a link [to be heard] over [scenes of] this new crew coming in ... a young Kirk accepting the medal and becoming captain of the Enterprise."

"The entire ending of the movie, where you're seeing young Kirk being promoted," Orci added, "all that was going to be [played out with Shatner's] voice-over."

Ultimately, the Shatner ending of "Star Trek" was abandoned for a whole variety of reasons. "Whereas our elder Spock had a very organic reason to be there, we didn't have that same benefit with Kirk," Kurtzman explained. "Because Kirk died in the movies — he died in canon — it was very hard to come up with a way to bring him back in the movie that didn't feel contrived."

"Ultimately, we decided internally that we were split," Orci remembered of the decision to abandon the Shatner ending. "The decision was that it wasn't quite enough to justify wasting his time."

Still, it's pretty obvious where Orci fell in the internal debate. "It was a nice voice-over. It was more than a scene," he explained. "I think it could have worked, personally."

 

[Bass]

Yeah.

It probably should have been shut down a few pages back. Not because people were arguing, but because of the sheer amount of nerdiness emanating from the posts. The new name of the site should be "Nerd Central" because basically that's what it has become with this thread.

See, this very thread is a great demonstration of why this movie was great and needed to be made. Look what happens when you throw old school Star Trek into the picture - loser fest.

What is this nonsense?

This is all extremely aggravating. You lot are acting like such geeks about this ****ing movie and that's okay, yet somehow, less extreme behaviour from the other end of the spectrum is a loser fest.

**** it.

Ultimately, the Shatner ending of "Star Trek" was abandoned for a whole variety of reasons. "Whereas our elder Spock had a very organic reason to be there, we didn't have that same benefit with Kirk," Kurtzman explained. "Because Kirk died in the movies — he died in canon — it was very hard to come up with a way to bring him back in the movie that didn't feel contrived."

I find this amusing as I think this entire movie was contrived.

That said, I think the Shatner voice-over would've been a remarkably nice touch. All you needed to set it up, was a moment during Future Spock's mindmeld with Kirk where he's given the disc and told Kirk is dead. It would've fit there since their melding of minds would've naturally brought it up.

 

[Gothamite]

Well, ENTERPRISE looks different even though it's a prequel. Same for Phantom Menace. Set design can alter and still be 'in continuity'. It's a given by the audience; "It's 2009, it's okay if you don't make it look like everything's made out of polyester and cardboard."

No, obviously that makes perfect sense. But I'm referring to the Enterprise insignia problem. What I'm referring to is an actual, canonical piece of history and not just a style-change. The insignia didn't become the standard Starfleet one until after TOS. Yet in this movie, it is used by Starfleet, throughout. You could say that it's because of the time-change or whatever, but it was also used by the U.S.S. Kelvin, which doesn't make any sense.

And yeah, it's just a movie, who cares, etc.

 

[Bass]

Honestly? I don't think most people involved or watching can tell the difference between canonical historical elements and set dressing. I certainly don't. It's just a symbol to me. :/

 

[Gothamite]

Honestly? I don't think most people involved or watching can tell the difference between canonical historical elements and set dressing. I certainly don't. It's just a symbol to me. :/

Well every ship had its own symbol in TOS and this was referenced a few times. In the movie, they're all using the same one.

 

[E]

What is this nonsense?

This is all extremely aggravating. You lot are acting like such geeks about this ****ing movie and that's okay, yet somehow, less extreme behaviour from the other end of the spectrum is a loser fest.

**** it.

No.

You know what? I'm tired of this. People get all stupid just because someone likes something that's a little bit different and you mother****ers start foaming at the mouth and...

...sorry. I can't do it.

I was just kidding, man.

 

[Bass]

Well every ship had its own symbol in TOS and this was referenced a few times. In the movie, they're all using the same one.

Oh yeah... I forgot about that. That's obscure knowledge!

No.

You know what? I'm tired of this. People get all stupid just because someone likes something that's a little bit different and you mother****ers start foaming at the mouth and...

...sorry. I can't do it.

I was just kidding, man.

Good. Okay, then.

I just came from a blog where I posted a shorter comment at got attacked as a 'fanboy' for not liking the new Trek wholeheartedly and screaming its awesome as the greatest movie ever made, like somehow I don't "get" this awesome new movie. Even though I've already bought the damn soundtrack from iTunes. (It kicked ***.)

I've come to hate the movie so much more since reading internet 'discussions' on the movie which are so ****ing binary it's ridiculous. Apparently, one either loves it because you're cool and hip and one hates it because you are a loser fanboy with no friends. There's no middle ground. And both sides are full of ****.

**** the internet. It's full of balls.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

**** the internet. It's full of balls.

It's all Al Gore's fault. That bastard!

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I was in the middle of this film.

I enjoyed it, but didn't make me want to go and scream about it all over the internet.

 

[E]

I just came from a blog where I posted a shorter comment at got attacked as a 'fanboy' for not liking the new Trek wholeheartedly and screaming its awesome as the greatest movie ever made, like somehow I don't "get" this awesome new movie. Even though I've already bought the damn soundtrack from iTunes. (It kicked ***.)

Please. I couldn't care less who liked it or didn't like it or why.

I was in the middle of this film.

OMG I totally missed it! Which part? Were you the green creature getting boinked by Kirk?

 

[Ultimate Houde]

OMG I totally missed it! Which part? Were you the green creature getting boinked by Kirk?

I was the red shirt who used his chute too late.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

I have the same problem as Bass (obviously). I liked the movie a lot but still got yelled at for trying to talk about it everywhere I have.

I do wonder why fans of the new Star Trek (not ALL of them, just to be clear) are so defensive, like they'd just as soon no previous version ever existed.

 

[Captain Canuck]

What I mean is... okay. Here's an example of the stupidity of the movie. Just one of many, but it's a good one. To my mind, it kinda showcases the entire movie in one scene.

At the end of the movie, Spock has crashed the future ship with the red matter into the Romulan ship and it's collapsing into a black hole.

Kirk, in a crowning moment of awesome, offers Nero humanitarian aid, and Nero, marvelously, refuses it. Kirk then, nonchalantly, is fine with Nero dying a horrible, horrible death.

This is all very good.

Then, in a crowning moment of stupidity, Kirk fires all the weapons on the Enterprise at the Romulan ship. The ship is being destroyed by a black hole. What the hell is firing on it going to do? It's as if Kirk doesn't want a black hole taking the credit. Or maybe he doesn't want Spock taking the credit. I don't know.

As a result of this bizarre stupidity, the Enterprise is, as expected, caught in the grip of the black hole. An unnecessary moment of false jeopardy is created and the only way to escape is to eject the warp core. They do this, even though the black hole is designed to swallow supernovas, it somehow blasts them to safety.

It is just stupid. And, I think, after ejecting the warp core, they warp away (though, I may remember that last bit wrong).

See what I mean? You have this cool awesome character moment, and then for no reason, the characters act stupid so that they can have a chase scene. It's contrived. The whole movie is.

There's no reason for it. I understand the need for a dramatic escape from the black hole. It's kind of an obligatory scene for the movie. Plus, the ship's cracking glass was really, really cool.

What I don't get is WHY they had to go to such lengths to get the Enterprise "trapped". There were multiple opportunities besides the stupid one that they took.

1 - One drop of red matter creates a black hole that eats a supernova. An entire beach ball of the stuff just exploded. Make the black hole HUGE. As in, the Enterprise can't see any damn stars.

haha, yeah i thought this too. "Why are you shooting him? he's getting sucked into a black ho....oooohhhh! pretty lights!"

and yeah, that red matter should have made a galaxy threatening black hole if a little drop could consume a supernova.

Not to mention the other plot problems such as the fact that if your star explodes you're screwed whether or not your planet gets consumed in the supernova. Your planet would go spinning off into space and everybody would freeze to death,

or why in the world did Spok have that much red matter in the first place? He only needed one or maybe two drops to do the job. Having that much insta-black-hole seems pretty illogical.

Why did they flood the McDonald's playground tubes in the engineering bay? Scottie could have drowned! (what were those things? and why did they empty into a giant blender? and why would you ever need an emergency escape hatch?...I mean besides if you accidentally beamed someone into them and had to get him out before he made a mess of the blender)

I thought of these things while I was watching it, and yet it didn't matter to me. They didn't detract from the story at all. It didn't dumb it down like it did for Transformers.

What do you mean "these people"?

what do you mean "these people"?

This is a valid point - you can't criticize a film for what you wished it was as opposed to what it is.

yes you can, have you ever seen Spider-Man 3?

I assumed, at first, it wasn't a retcon because Romulus never exploded. Someone pointed out that 130 years into the future is actually AFTER the last episode of Voyager and Nemesis and it IS a retcon and I just shook my head and wondered "why?"

this story was told in the comic book prequel 'Star Trek: Countdown'

speaking of which, apparently this story states that Data was actually successful in downloading his memories and personality onto B4 and is still alive.

I'll jump on the nerd-wagon here and say that that flies in the face of a whole lot of established Star Trek ethics. B4 is a sentient being but a simplistic one and, unlike Data, one who apparently didn't have the desire to 'evolve' or better himself. Data would never have done this, b/c it implies that B4 is less than alive and therefore would mean he too is not sentient.

But then again Nemesis sucked, and I hate that they killed Data, and the comic is probably not official canon.

 

[ProjectX2]

Maybe Kirk thought that if Nero was sucked into the black hole, he'd find a way to return one day or continue to attack others so he decided to finish the job?

 

[Grocer Man]

Maybe Kirk thought that if Nero was sucked into the black hole, he'd find a way to return one day or continue to attack others so he decided to finish the job?

That was my reasoning.

And well, Kirk is Kirk. During the Kobayashi Maru scene, I half expected him to order the bridge to begin a musical number.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

yes you can, have you ever seen Spider-Man 3?

That doesn't make sense. The problems with Spider-man 3 were by and large those things that they did have in the movie (EMO Peter Parker, Dunst singing, the handling of Venom, too many villains), not what they didn't have but should have included. Do you see what I'm saying. He's saying that Star Trek would have been better if it had all the things in it which he mentioned. Spider-man 3 was bad, at least in my opinion, because of what it DID have in it. I'm saying that while you can judge a film based upon what the filmmakers decide to put in it, you shouldn't judge it based upon what it is not. Does that make sense? :?

Maybe Kirk thought that if Nero was sucked into the black hole, he'd find a way to return one day or continue to attack others so he decided to finish the job?

That's what I kinda assumed.

 

[Bass]

haha, yeah i thought this too. "Why are you shooting him? he's getting sucked into a black ho....oooohhhh! pretty lights!"

and yeah, that red matter should have made a galaxy threatening black hole if a little drop could consume a supernova.

Not to mention the other plot problems such as the fact that if your star explodes you're screwed whether or not your planet gets consumed in the supernova. Your planet would go spinning off into space and everybody would freeze to death,

or why in the world did Spok have that much red matter in the first place? He only needed one or maybe two drops to do the job. Having that much insta-black-hole seems pretty illogical.

Why did they flood the McDonald's playground tubes in the engineering bay? Scottie could have drowned! (what were those things? and why did they empty into a giant blender? and why would you ever need an emergency escape hatch?...I mean besides if you accidentally beamed someone into them and had to get him out before he made a mess of the blender)

I thought of these things while I was watching it, and yet it didn't matter to me. They didn't detract from the story at all. It didn't dumb it down like it did for Transformers.

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. The film is enjoyable in spite of its stupidity, but it's still stupid.

Maybe Kirk thought that if Nero was sucked into the black hole, he'd find a way to return one day or continue to attack others so he decided to finish the job?

Except that it's made quite clear by Nero and Kirk that he'll die without their help. The ship is clearly being destroyed by the black hole.

And well, Kirk is Kirk. During the Kobayashi Maru scene, I half expected him to order the bridge to begin a musical number.

That would've been so funny. What would he have played?

 

[Doublehex]

I don't care what the rest of you guys think.

You want to know why?

Because THIS is the best review of Star Trek. Ever.

http://sanemansblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/and-not-word-from-our-awesome.html

And yes it is a link to my blog, And no, I. DO. NOT. CARE.

 

[thee great one]

I was the red shirt who used his chute too late.

Red Shirt Olson. He was my decedent.