TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
Another thing I thought of tonight. Didn't we witness Mandarin shoot someone himself?
IRON MAN 3 discussion (spoilers)
- Thread starter Bass
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DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
Yeah. He says something about thinking they're using special effects, but that really doesn't make much sense. Unless he's just a complete moron.
Mattimeo84
Well-Known Member
That's assuming he actually killed the CEO then and there. All we know is a shot was fired then silence. They cut all mics from the room and only use a body mic on trevor. He already said everything else was green screen. We are deal with techno-terrorists, we should assume they can isolate audio.
Bass
Nexus of the World
Fresh? It was done better in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.
Your argument was that they should 'respect' the Mandarin. I'm saying he wasn't worth respecting. That is my point. So the fact that they took this awful character and turned him into this credible threat, which they then paid off with an excellent joke that increased the danger in the plot is not just respect, but more than the Mandarin ever deserved – just as they 'respected' Killian and Maya by turning them into proper characters. You don't seem to notice that they took Killian, a nobody, and turned him into a proper villain for Iron Man. Your barometer is off.
The entire THOR franchise is built on the fundamental premise that godlike characters fighting will look awesome (and it did). They even had Loki and Thor fight in THE AVENGERS. They had a proper, excellent fight between Thor and Hulk in the movie. Why couldn't Loki and Hulk have a fight that wasn't just one more joke at Loki's expense? The only threat in the film comes from Hulk maybe eating one of the Avengers. When the Hulk joins the team and helps out, there's no danger. And it was a gag we'd already seen: Hulk punched Thor like Thor was Wile E Coyote (which was much better).
Even if the Trevor reveal were bad (it wasn't) at least it happened once, midway through the film, and allowed Killian to take over as the major antagonist. The Loki pummeling was in the climax, nothing took his place, and it had already been done a few minutes before.
It doesn't matter if he shows up. The point is a massive, $200 million film, that is supposed to be the pay-off for five blockbusters, is a set-up for another film. Whether or not they pay it off doesn't invalidate that they didn't pay it off in their big pay-off movie, whereas IRON MAN 3 did.
Saying, "Here's how I would've done it" as a thought experiment is fine. Judging a film based on the imagined success of your own version is totally arbitrary and prejudicial.
I thought it was quite clear that Trevor didn't care. He knew exactly how criminal his organisation was, and it was a pre-rehearsed defence strategy: "It was all movie-magic, love." He would say anything he could to get off the hook.
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Bass
Nexus of the World
I was doing so well for so many years. I feel like I've fallen off the wagon.
DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
I thought they show the CEO laying dead in the background at some point after Tony enters that mansion.
I never got that impression. I may have missed something though. What gave you the impression that he knew about the whole thing?
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
I enjoyed it lots. Thought it was amazing.
Bass
Nexus of the World
They show a video screen that has a frozen image of the man on the floor after Mandarin shot him. There's also a bit in the end credits where the guy gets up and shakes Kingsley's hand. I think, though, that is an outtake, not part of the film, as the credits have lots of little moments that clearly outtakes.
The reason I got the impression Trevor Slattery knew that it was all highly illegal was simply that he knew the vice-president was involved, he knew that he was taking credit for explosions, he knows there are real guns lying around, and he is genuinely worried about the Extremis dudes. Plus, when Stark and Rhodes come in, he says, "There are one or two people I immediately want to roll on". It seemed to me quite clear he knew what he was involved in and just didn't care, and, in his mind, had this great way of getting out by going, "I didn't know what was going on, I was so high". The Towelie defence.
Damn straight you are. AS SHOULD ALL.
YOU LOVE EVERYTHING YOU'RE NOT HELPING I HATE YOU
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
Where?
Ok. You feel like that's respect. And I've already said why I don't think turning him into a joke wasn't. It's just getting repetitive.
They can have two villains though? The writers, the whole creative team, that's there job to make complex stories.
That's a whole movie based in another realm. It was just a 2 second bit in The Avengers that was meant to entertain the audience after Loki was basically defeated. It's not like it ended up being a big show down between Hulk v Loki. Loki was slowly getting taken down by the entire team and the cherry was ending up at Hulk's feet. It's nothing to scoff at and feel the entire Avengers movie was a sham. I don't think Trevor's reveal was all bad. I liked he was more than a secondary villain but I don't think they needed to cheapen Mandarin to do it. And Loki was talking about working for something bigger much earlier in The Avengers so when he gets pummeled in the end we don't need something taking his place right then. We're looking forward to sequels and the rest of the Marvel movie universe they're building.
I understand. But we're going to get solo movies with pay-offs and we're going to get solo movies with loose ends. They're going to continue to shake things up like that. So there's no point in wanting it one way or another because I'm sure either way there will be a payoff.
If I disagree with some things in the movie and you agree with them...doesn't that mean we're both judging the movie based off our own personal tastes? So we're doing the same thing. You're just thinking that you wouldn't change anything. The other films you mention, seems like you would.
Maybe. I just think it was taking it too far because when the reveal he wasn't really "bad" your first thought could be 'he just shot a guy in the head'....
There are no sides. I rated it a 4/5.
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ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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Bass not liking the "puny God" bit in The Avengers sums up everything about him: he hates fun.
I think I posted that exact same sentence in The Avengers thread, which is a better movie than Iron Man 3 because **** you.
I think I posted that exact same sentence in The Avengers thread, which is a better movie than Iron Man 3 because **** you.
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Avengers was much better, yes, but for a movie without that strong of a supporting cast I thought this movie did fine. It definitely wasn't as bad as some hardcore fans seem to be making it out to be. My main issues were probably the lack of a presence from anyone outside the Iron Man mythos (Not even one reference to SHIELD for instance, when everything we know about them tells us The Mandarin attacks would be a concern for them).
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
I'm sure a lot of us were pretty much thinking now that we had The Avengers film then where were they in Tony's time of need. At first I had a big problem with this but then I thought about a few things. SHIELD probably doesn't give a flying whatever about terrorists now that they've witnessed Aliens, Monsters, and Gods. They probably had some resources available but I'm sure they'll cover where they were in a later film or else shame on them. Captain America could have been on a covert mission, maybe the one we'll see in The Winter Soldier story. Banner could be in New York or again, on his own adventure. Thor is most likely not on Earth. They kept SHIELD out because of the criticism from Iron Man 2. Hopefully they're not going to just leave them out without any explanation.
the watcher
Well-Known Member
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Banner was there at the end of the credits. They should had have him say something to that effect...
Anyways, I liked this film. It was fun. I hope they start filling these movies with more marvel references.
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Bass
Nexus of the World
... O__o
After Loki was defea...
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNN!!!!
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
Squibs, baby...squibs. Hollywood's been using them for over half a century convincingly on camera...why wouldn't that be the case here?
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
I geeked just a little with the mentions of the Roxxon company. This was the first mention, wasn't it?
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The Overlord
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I am actually going to back Bass up by asking a simple question: Why is Mandarin Iron Man's arch nemesis? Is there a reason beyond the fact he is the most reoccurring villain from the Silver Age?
It seems like most of the iconic Iron Man stories have nothing to do with Mandarin: Doomsquest, Tony stark vs. Obadiah Stane, Demon in a Bottle, Extremist, Armor Wars, etc.
I think Mandarin had one good story recently, but overall how how many great Mandarin stories have there been?
This isn't a new problem, writers have been struggling with what to do with Mandarin for a while, David Michelinie, the man who reinvented Iron Man back in the 80s and made Iron Man the character he is today, didn't use Mandarin because he couldn't think of a way to update him. So this was a problem back in the 80s, with the guy who was responsible for making Iron Man such a compelling character.
Also every time Mandarin gets adapted to other media, they try to change him to deal with the fact he is outdated: the 94 cartoon turned him into some white guy named Arnold Brock who was turned green by the rings, the more recent CGI cartoon turned him into a more sympathetic teenage book worm type and the 2007 Iron Man DTV turned him into Sauron from Lord of the Rings.
It seems like Marvel is struggling more with Mandarin then other major Marvel villains, which is why he is not used as constantly. I think its hard for Mandarin to escape his Yellow Peril origins, even the name is kinda problematic, it sounds like something a white guy would look an Asian character to establish he is Asian. Its like naming an American character " Hank Apple Pie Base Ball Player".
Also do Iron Man and Mandarin have a lot of interesting personal chemistry? There doesn't seem to be anything to connect them in their back story, like say Dr. Doom and Reed Richards or Xavier and Magneto, it seems like Mandarin just showed up one day to try and take over the world and Iron Man decided to stop him. Has Mandarin ever done anything to truly hurt Iron Man? Obadiah Stane managed to steal his company and Zeke Stane managed to nearly kill Pepper.
It seems like most of the iconic Iron Man stories have nothing to do with Mandarin: Doomsquest, Tony stark vs. Obadiah Stane, Demon in a Bottle, Extremist, Armor Wars, etc.
I think Mandarin had one good story recently, but overall how how many great Mandarin stories have there been?
This isn't a new problem, writers have been struggling with what to do with Mandarin for a while, David Michelinie, the man who reinvented Iron Man back in the 80s and made Iron Man the character he is today, didn't use Mandarin because he couldn't think of a way to update him. So this was a problem back in the 80s, with the guy who was responsible for making Iron Man such a compelling character.
Also every time Mandarin gets adapted to other media, they try to change him to deal with the fact he is outdated: the 94 cartoon turned him into some white guy named Arnold Brock who was turned green by the rings, the more recent CGI cartoon turned him into a more sympathetic teenage book worm type and the 2007 Iron Man DTV turned him into Sauron from Lord of the Rings.
It seems like Marvel is struggling more with Mandarin then other major Marvel villains, which is why he is not used as constantly. I think its hard for Mandarin to escape his Yellow Peril origins, even the name is kinda problematic, it sounds like something a white guy would look an Asian character to establish he is Asian. Its like naming an American character " Hank Apple Pie Base Ball Player".
Also do Iron Man and Mandarin have a lot of interesting personal chemistry? There doesn't seem to be anything to connect them in their back story, like say Dr. Doom and Reed Richards or Xavier and Magneto, it seems like Mandarin just showed up one day to try and take over the world and Iron Man decided to stop him. Has Mandarin ever done anything to truly hurt Iron Man? Obadiah Stane managed to steal his company and Zeke Stane managed to nearly kill Pepper.
TheManWithoutFear
#1 reason not to join UC
Great point. I was talking to a co-worker about all of this tonight. Well, not this exactly but pretty much about 10 years ago no one cared about Iron Man at all. His entire mythology is coming around and he's now actually bigger than Spider-Man. This probably undermine's my entire argument with Bass about the "respect" of Mandarin but I never read Iron Man. All I know is Mandarin was his arch-enemy and it was his time to shine finally. But that never happened. So are we ushering in a new age? Is Aldrich the new big bad? is Stane? Do heroes need an arch enemy?
