IRON MAN 3 discussion (spoilers)

[E]

This was pretty great. I'm disappointed you liked the Mandarin twist but you hit on a lot of things that bothered me. I wouldn't rate it as low but I definitely feel embarrassed I gave it 4/5 stars now.

Because it was a great twist and a good way to avoid the more problematic aspects of the Mandarin.

^ This. In a modern semi-realistic superhero movie there is no place for a character like Mandarin. It might have been taken to the extreme but I liked the idea.

What I mean is, I don't like that the actor was turned into a joke. There is nothing funny about terrorism. I don't mean that I'm deadly serious about terrorism and don't take kindly to jokes, I mean that it's not something people joke about, and terrorists aren't generally funny people. So using a good idea like a fake terrorist figurehead and turning it into a joke or gag diminishes the idea greatly.

I should have clarified that in my post. Concept - excellent. Execution - terrible.

I don't think that's true at all but whatever. He's a joke. I get it.

Again, I did not like that he was a joke. I did like that he wasn't real and was just a front for someone (although I hated him, too) who is a real, actual terrorist so he can move under the radar.

"I AM DA MANDARIN!"

You know that's a Post of the Day.

 

[DIrishB]

"I AM DA MANDARIN!"

Ha!

You know that's a Post of the Day.

Deservingly so!

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

I've made my peace with Iron Man 3, so I'm not trying to pile criticism on, but I think they could have made him closer to the comic book counterpart while avoiding stereotypes. Mandarin could have been an Asian terrorist, warlord, rogue general, etc, who used his Ten Rings organization to provoke war between the US and China. For some sort of personal gain or end purpose. No reason they couldn't do something like that (or something else entirely) without devolving into stereotype.

I just can't get past why Killian is called the Mandarin in the first place? He's white! I just don't understand the reason he'd use that moniker, especially since they never even try to explain the connection. It'd be like British villain calling himself the Cherokee.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I've made my peace with Iron Man 3, so I'm not trying to pile criticism on, but I think they could have made him closer to the comic book counterpart while avoiding stereotypes. Mandarin could have been an Asian terrorist, warlord, rogue general, etc, who used his Ten Rings organization to provoke war between the US and China. For some sort of personal gain or end purpose. No reason they couldn't do something like that (or something else entirely) without devolving into stereotype.

I just can't get past why Killian is called the Mandarin in the first place? He's white! I just don't understand the reason he'd use that moniker, especially since they never even try to explain the connection. It'd be like British villain calling himself the Cherokee.

Don't bother. You're right but don't bother.

Another one of those Hitler videos on Iron Man 3

Super Heroes are *****ing out.

 

[Ice]

I don't think he was actually calling himself The Mandarin, just that he's the one who was behind everything, so that in a sense he was the guy. If that makes sense...

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I don't think he was actually calling himself The Mandarin, just that he's the one who was behind everything, so that in a sense he was the guy. If that makes sense...

I'd buy that if it weren't for the tattoos

 

[Bass]

This was Marvel's Batman & Robin.

Ridiculous.

But then they topped it by giving Pepper super powers. This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine and I was pretty vocal about it when we got MJGoblin in USM. Most superheroes - including Iron Man and Spider-Man - NEED regular people. I don't know enough about the science of writing to know WHY they are needed, but they are. Once everyone is running around with super powers it makes it less special.

The X-Men don't. It's not a requirement. But, Pepper has powers for one brief scene after the climax and then they're gone. The rest of the movie is her either being given the Iron Man suit, or being tortured with the Extremis formula.

Here's the problem: you're criticism is reactionary and nonsensical because you don't complain that Jarvis is a robot, you don't care that Rhodes has a suit and is super-powered, you only got upset when Pepper did. What's more, in the film, Tony continually interacts with regular people, the henchman, the camera guy, and the kid.

Those are just conceptual issues I had; I don't even want to bother ranting about stupid things like how he has 40+ Iron Man suits at his beck and call but he can't have them help when his house is being bombed to smithereens. Or how Pepper seemingly dies and Tony is still able to crack jokes and make smart-aleck quips. Or how they had him running around like Solid Snake. He's Tony Stark! Tony Stark doesn't dodge behind buildings like Solid Snake!

It's quite clear in the film that Tony Stark needed time to assemble the 40+ Iron Man suits for battle. "Is it time?" he asks Jarvis. He didn't have them ready when the Mandarin attacked, something he thought would never happen.

Tony Stark doesn't dodge behind buildings like Solid Snake. Rhodes continually tells him what to do, and Stark continually gets it wrong. You're just completely misreading the film. I can't help but point it out. It's like when Tog and Mwof were saying about how Loki got beaten up by the Hulk after he was defeated, or when someone says Han Solo has all the power in his relationship with Leia – it's just not paying attention anymore. It's not possible to have a discussion.

On a different note, I absolutely hate what they did to the Extremis story. I loved the comic, and it was so beautifully simple. There was no need to complicate it, no need to turn Maya Hansen into a villain, no need to create an army of Extremis enhanciles...none of that. All they had to do was adapt the Warren Ellis story. Ruined.

I re-read the Ellis story after the film and was amazed at how that story hasn't aged well at all. The only thing that still works is Granov's art. The story starts off good, but it is sooooo slow, it crawls at a pace, and it never goes anywhere.

Also; Maya Hansen was a villain in Ellis' story. Her whole point was to create one super-terrorist, whom Iron Man would lose against, thus getting a commission to build an army of them. What the film does is take the two-act story that is Extremis, takes the backstory, and turns it into a full-length work.

1/5 stars. Boo. I fear for the future of Marvel movies.

IRON MAN 3 is the best film Marvel has done to date. It is the most complete film. It is the most original film. It is the best structured film. I had one or two small complaints, but then, I did with THE DARK KNIGHT. The comparison between the two is apt.

 

[DIrishB]

I've made my peace with Iron Man 3, so I'm not trying to pile criticism on, but I think they could have made him closer to the comic book counterpart while avoiding stereotypes. Mandarin could have been an Asian terrorist, warlord, rogue general, etc, who used his Ten Rings organization to provoke war between the US and China. For some sort of personal gain or end purpose. No reason they couldn't do something like that (or something else entirely) without devolving into stereotype.

Eh, I think that approach, while not stereotypical, is certainly cliched and tired in our post 9/11 world. It's tough to take the approach of a villainous terrorist character and combine originality and interesting characterization, let alone a level of relatability and understanding with the audience. I think they realized that after trying to figure out how to approach Mandarin and went with the twist/joke angle instead.

I just can't get past why Killian is called the Mandarin in the first place? He's white! I just don't understand the reason he'd use that moniker, especially since they never even try to explain the connection. It'd be like British villain calling himself the Cherokee.

Well essentially because he was the real Mandarin, the one pulling the strings. He orchestrated the entire thing. The Mandarin actor (Trevor I think his name was) played by Ben Kingsley was in fact a British actor, so it's not far off.

 

[E]

Ridiculous.

Right.

The X-Men don't. It's not a requirement.

:roll: I never once said it was. The Avengers as a team don't. The Fantastic Four probably don't. But there are characters who are created and developed to be normal people in a super hero's life. Pepper Potts is most definitely one of them. This is no different than Aunt May in an Iron Man suit. This is equally stupid and ridiculous.

But, Pepper has powers for one brief scene after the climax and then they're gone.

I could argue that that is actually worse. But it should not happen at all, so it's moot.

Here's the problem: you're criticism is reactionary and nonsensical because you don't complain that Jarvis is a robot, you don't care that Rhodes has a suit and is super-powered, you only got upset when Pepper did. What's more, in the film, Tony continually interacts with regular people, the henchman, the camera guy, and the kid.

Are you being serious? Jarvis being a robot is a non-issue; it's a human character that has been initially completely rewritten as a robot; it's not like the took a human Jarvis and transformed him into a robot for the film. That's not even close to being the same thing.

Rhodes is not super powered. He has an Iron Man suit. That is exactly what he has always been (and if not always, then for a good portion of his existence) -- a second Iron Man. That, also, is not even close to being the same thing. You're really reaching here.

Interacting with regular people and having a close supporting cast that are regular people are also completely different and not even close to being the same thing.

Most of the time when you present arguments for something they are well thought out and well said but that was not.

It's quite clear in the film that Tony Stark needed time to assemble the 40+ Iron Man suits for battle. "Is it time?" he asks Jarvis. He didn't have them ready when the Mandarin attacked, something he thought would never happen.

It was the least important of the numerous things I hated about this movie so...fine. You can have that one.

Tony Stark doesn't dodge behind buildings like Solid Snake. Rhodes continually tells him what to do, and Stark continually gets it wrong.

Even if I were to concede that point -- you think that is normal Tony Stark behavior? Have you ever read an Iron Man comic? When has Tony Stark ever been a bumbling doofus who lets people tell him what to do?

You're just completely misreading the film. I can't help but point it out. It's like when Tog and Mwof were saying about how Loki got beaten up by the Hulk after he was defeated, or when someone says Han Solo has all the power in his relationship with Leia – it's just not paying attention anymore. It's not possible to have a discussion.

Insults don't help your argument. You're just coming across as angry and irrational.

I re-read the Ellis story after the film and was amazed at how that story hasn't aged well at all. The only thing that still works is Granov's art. The story starts off good, but it is sooooo slow, it crawls at a pace, and it never goes anywhere.

What part doesn't age well? It has aged incredibly well in terms of the technology portions, especially considering it's only - what - 5 years old? The pace of a story isn't related in any way to how well it ages.

Also; Maya Hansen was a villain in Ellis' story. Her whole point was to create one super-terrorist, whom Iron Man would lose against, thus getting a commission to build an army of them.

:shock:

This is why you don't go and insult people by telling them they didn't pay attention and can't make an argument - because if YOU had read Extremis, you'd know that she was NOT trying to create an army and was NOT a villain. She made a stupid decision to show off the formula so she could get funding. And it was quite clear that the goal wasn't even to have it beat Iron Man. In fact, it was pretty obvious that the whole point of getting Iron Man to clean up the mess was because he was likely the only person who COULD and minimize death/damage.

"I would have used the renewed funding to get out of the arms race. Set up on my own. Medical technology." That's her exact quote from the comic.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Extremis came out in 2005, so it's almost ten years old.

My girlfriend hated that Pepper Potts had to be in a tanktop in the final act. She thought that she should have been in an unflattering sweatsuit. With no makeup.

That kid, is he anyone from the comics?

 

[thee great one]

Here's the problem: you're criticism is reactionary and nonsensical because you don't complain that Jarvis is a robot, you don't care that Rhodes has a suit and is super-powered, you only got upset when Pepper did. What's more, in the film, Tony continually interacts with regular people, the henchman, the camera guy, and the kid.

Jarvis isn't a robot. He is an artificial intelligence or computer program.

Tony Stark doesn't dodge behind buildings like Solid Snake. Rhodes continually tells him what to do, and Stark continually gets it wrong. You're just completely misreading the film. I can't help but point it out. It's like when Tog and Mwof were saying about how Loki got beaten up by the Hulk after he was defeated, or when someone says Han Solo has all the power in his relationship with Leia – it's just not paying attention anymore. It's not possible to have a discussion.

I never said that nor did I ever mention anything about the subject. But apparently your opinion of me is that I'm a stupid fanboy.

I re-read the Ellis story after the film and was amazed at how that story hasn't aged well at all. The only thing that still works is Granov's art. The story starts off good, but it is sooooo slow, it crawls at a pace, and it never goes anywhere.

Also; Maya Hansen was a villain in Ellis' story. Her whole point was to create one super-terrorist, whom Iron Man would lose against, thus getting a commission to build an army of them. What the film does is take the two-act story that is Extremis, takes the backstory, and turns it into a full-length work.

I was never a huge fan of the original story as I stated before. But I feel like they did less with it in the film then the comic.

IRON MAN 3 is the best film Marvel has done to date. It is the most complete film. It is the most original film. It is the best structured film. I had one or two small complaints, but then, I did with THE DARK KNIGHT. The comparison between the two is apt.

:sick: and I rated the film 4 stars.

 

[DIrishB]

I never said that nor did I ever mention anything about the subject. But apparently your opinion of me is that I'm a stupid fanboy.

I'm pretty sure he was directing that to E. So apparently E is the stupid fanboy. You just have horrible taste in shorts.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I'm pretty sure he was directing that to E. So apparently E is the stupid fanboy. You just have horrible taste in shorts.

I think he means collectively. If Bass insults E's criticisms he's insulting everyone who had those same problems with the flick. And he does reference me and ToG in there so I guess ToG can take it personally.

 

[E]

I think he means collectively. If Bass insults E's criticisms he's insulting everyone who had those same problems with the flick. And he does reference me and ToG in there so I guess ToG can take it personally.

The difference in opinion is not what is insulting. It's the statement - which I fail to see the basis of - that I/we "didn't pay attention" and therefore have no basis for said opinions and is/aren't worthy of discussing them.

Especially when he turns around and makes a couple of factually incorrect statements about something else.

THAT is insulting.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

The difference in opinion is not what is insulting. It's the statement - which I fail to see the basis of - that I/we "didn't pay attention" and therefore have no basis for said opinions and is/aren't worthy of discussing them.

Especially when he turns around and makes a couple of factually incorrect statements about something else.

THAT is insulting.

I know. I don't think he was trying to be insulting (at least I hope not). I think he just wasn't thinking when he wrote that.

 

[Captain Canuck]

So first, I don't want to bash on anyone. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter that much. We're allowed to have different opinions of this movie and I appreciate being able to discuss this maturely and civilly. So I hope it's clear that I'm not attacking anyone. (And maybe we should all just take a collective deep breath)

Gags and plot twists are not exclusive. Gags can twist the plots just as straight moments can. This gag twisted the plot.

Sure, I get that, but my point was that the emphasis was on the gag rather than on making the plot twist make sense. As I see it, there were two important arcs in this movie, the first was Tony Stark dealing with his felt inadequacy and PTSD and growing as a character. They nailed this. The best parts of the movie were Tony out of the armor. The second arc was the mystery of the Mandarin. Who is he? How does he bomb these places? What is he trying to do? How does Killian fit in? This mystery is what drove the story forward - Stark's arc happened in the context of his trying to uncover the Mandarin's identity. And then we find out that the Mandarin is a smoke screen for Killian and AIM. Which is a really cool idea, a science brain trust that uses global terrorism as a source of funding for their research while also directing attention away from their real goals is an interesting idea. And if that idea had have been developed better and taken more seriously I think I would have liked the movie more. Instead we got a joke and an over the top action scene where fiery, regenerating super soldiers are fighting an army of remote controled armors. Killian yelling "I am the Mandarin" with dragons tattooed on his chest was not a satisfying way to tie up the driving plot/mystery of the movie. And I just feel like the extremis soldiers were silly generic threats that didn't make sense.

At the end of the day, this movie is basically The Phantom Menace. A mysterious villain is causing problems. The hero goes after him, it doesn't go well and he ends up stuck in the middle of nowhere where he meets an annoying kid who helps him get fixed up and back to where he needs to be. The hero finally confronts the mysterious villain who turns out to be a disappointment and not really the real mastermind behind the whole thing. The hero gets backup and fights a generic army, working for the real villain who is just trying to manipulate politics in his favour. Clearly it's not a perfect fit, but there are some strong similarities.

 

[DIrishB]

Iron Man 3 is the Civil War of comic book movies. Within weeks, we'll be at each others' throats, killing, maiming, name-calling. The first shots have been fired, now it's only left to see who fires the last shots.

So screw this, I'm moving to Canada.

 

[ProjectX2]

Iron Man 3 is the Civil War of comic book movies. Within weeks, we'll be at each others' throats, killing, maiming, name-calling. The first shots have been fired, now it's only left to see who fires the last shots.

So screw this, I'm moving to Canada.

Man of Steel will fix everything... or make it worse.

 

[thee great one]

I'm pretty sure he was directing that to E. So apparently E is the stupid fanboy. You just have horrible taste in shorts.

:arrgh:

 

[Captain Canuck]

So screw this, I'm moving to Canada.

Ummm... sorry, we're not home right now... you'll have to come back later!