IRON MAN 3 discussion (spoilers)

[TheManWithoutFear]

I'm 24hrs out from seeing this and I'm not sure how I ultimately feel about it. There were things I loved and things I hated.

HIGH POINTS:
The subtle nods to Fraction's "Five Nightmares" with human bombs.

RDJ as Stark suffering with PTSD instead of alcoholism we're all kinda expecting.

Kingsley as Mandarin (pre-reveal).



LOW POINTS:
A whole lotta stuff. So much set-up...so much let down...

No actual Extremis injected into Stark. And the chest piece coming out at the end? WTF?

No post-credit scene of Rescue.

Am I the only one mad that the red-headed Extremis soldier with the scarred face didn't turn out to be Whitney aka Madame Mask?

Even though it was just introduced...I kinda wish AIM was a lil more than just a company.

Wasting The Mandarin and Ten Rings is just inexcusable. With the introduction of Thor a s the 9 Realms, the Red Skull harnessing power of the Tesseract and even Chuitari alien invasion...it's no longer a stretch to conceive the magical origins of the Rings. So for him to be a Ras Al Ghul wannabe...I'm just disappointed.

Extremis Pepper? Yeahbutwhat?




Overall I really enjoyed the film, but maybe it was cuz I was just enjoying seeing more comic stuff on film and being with my wife? Would I see it again? Yes. But it's definitely got a lot of faults.

Thank you for that.

I have a question that they may have answered in the movie and I just missed it, but why did Hogan live when everyone around him was seemingly eviscerated?

I think, simply, it was because he was a safe distance away and behind something.

 

[Bass]

Can't stop laughing.

 

[Bass]

This means all the haters are WRONG! Bass has given it his seal of approval, now all you complainers must bow down and beg forgiveness. Immediately!

About time someone gets it.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Yeah I get the idea of adapting a more exciting Extremis' story for screen cuz Ellis' story was a little "too talky" for a summer blockbuster...but what's the point of introducing it if you're not gonna really use it? Or if you DID have Tony use it at the end to fix Pepper and himself, don't leave it so damn vague. Cuz it sure seemed like the fix to Tony was open his chest up real wide and turn on a powerful magnet.

 

[ProjectX2]

Poll added.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Poll added.

This is tough. I rated ASM three and I shouldn't have but this was better than that. Still, there are so many flaws. I really can't grasp how I felt about this flick. With the Mandarin and Extremis changes I almost feel as betrayed as X-Men 3 with their liberties on certain characters and mythologies.

 

[DIrishB]

This is tough. I rated ASM three and I shouldn't have but this was better than that. Still, there are so many flaws. I really can't grasp how I felt about this flick. With the Mandarin and Extremis changes I almost feel as betrayed as X-Men 3 with their liberties on certain characters and mythologies.

While IM3 certainly had its faults, comparing it to X-Men That Last Stand is just taking it way too far. Srsly.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

While IM3 certainly had its faults, comparing it to X-Men That Last Stand is just taking it way too far. Srsly.

Yeah, it's a much better movie but I feel like the drastic changes on Mandarin and Extremis reminds me of X3 and that just makes me angry. So I'm confused. I like the character development a lot in this movie. I liked the story too. But I don't like any kind of justification about alienating the people responsible for these movies in the first place, the fans.

 

[DIrishB]

Yeah, it's a much better movie but I feel like the drastic changes on Mandarin and Extremis reminds me of X3 and that just makes me angry. So I'm confused. I like the character development a lot in this movie. I liked the story too. But I don't like any kind of justification about alienating the people responsible for these movies in the first place, the fans.

That's a fair summary. I too am somewhat disappointed that one of, if not the biggest, villain of Iron Man's was relegated to a joke character, but at the same time I liked the humor behind it and how it built up Killian into a worthwhile, conniving, serious threat.

 

[Captain Canuck]

That's a fair summary. I too am somewhat disappointed that one of, if not the biggest, villain of Iron Man's was relegated to a joke character, but at the same time I liked the humor behind it and how it built up Killian into a worthwhile, conniving, serious threat.

Well, yeah... but I feel like they didn't take it far enough. If they had spent some time developing Killian as the Mandarin beyond him yelling "I AM THE MANDARIN" with dragon tatoos on his chest, it would have been pretty sweet. I wanted to see how the entire 10 Rings organization was just a front that used crime and terror to fund AIM's experiments (he sort of hinted at it, but I wanted to see it at work). If that had been developed I would have been much happier.

I also would have like to have seen just super strong and invulnerable soldiers rather than the fiery guys. That just really didn't work for me... maybe because I've never read extremis, but it seemed too far-fetched for an Iron Man movie. But I'm rethinking my position on this... Tony's character arc was driven by the fact that he's had to face things that are beyond him.

 

[Bass]

I love the audacity of turning Iron Man's arch nemesis (who has always been a terrible villain) into a brilliant joke to set up another villain and throw the story off the wheels. Everyone I've seen it with - none of whom are really Iron Man fans - were continually saying how they simply did not see the twist coming nor did they know where the film was going and were EXCITED. The last time I saw that reaction from people was THE DARK KNIGHT. It was excellent.

I just cannot understand the criticisms. Mandarin had more dignity as a drug-addled alcoholic than Loki in THE AVENGERS who is continually insulted, mocked, outwitted, and finally beaten up like a looney toon by the Hulk. Yes, it was funny, but the film was never exciting because the villain was never a threat. I really don't understand why this film gets any slight choice criticized when other films are lauded as the pinnacle (X2, SPIDEY 2, BATMAN BEGINS, and AVENGERS) when they not only possess more flaws as IM3, but are more egregious in them. Ken Watanabe turns out not to be Ra's? No problem even though it doesn't mean anything nor change anything in the story. Loki gets pummeled by a loony toon while being a slave for a villain who never shows up but *might* be in the sequel, along with a Dark Phoenix we never get, or a plot if illness that Spidey suddenly gets over and it has no virtue in the plot at all - but those films are fine. This one? Nit-picked endlessly.

I've seen it three times and I still love it and it is so very "Marvel". Witty and exciting and flamboyant in all the right ways.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Ken Watanabe turns out not to be Ra's? No problem even though it doesn't mean anything nor change anything in the story.

They didn't make a clown out of Ra's for the change. They did something clever without insulting fans of the characters.

I love the audacity of turning Iron Man's arch nemesis (who has always been a terrible villain)

So what if he was a terrible villain? The point is to bring these characters to life in a realistic and respectful way. Not give up on them and turn them into jokes.

Loki gets pummeled by a loony toon while being a slave for a villain who never shows up but *might* be in the sequel

The Hulk's a loony toon? I, personally, don't care for Thanos but the fact that he showed up and "might" not be in the sequel just shows me how invested Marvel is in expanding the movie-verse while still connecting them through out.

, along with a Dark Phoenix we never get,

Everyone knows that because production turned into a **** show once Singer dropped out. We could/would have gotten the Dark Phoenix we were supposed to if they were as dedicated to the finished product they were supposed to be. But why are you including this in your argument? No one thought X3 was good.

or a plot if illness that Spidey suddenly gets over and it has no virtue in the plot at all

It didn't make any sense. I get the whole "you have to believe in yourself" theme they were going for but it was a bit convenient.

This one? Nit-picked endlessly.

It just came out 2 days ago. This is when it gets nit-picked. And this film pulled off something that should be nit-picked especially in this community more than anything you mentioned.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

I've been thinking about this movie a lot the past couple days (mainly because it keeps me from actually having to study for finals). I think my issues with the film have less to do with the decisions they made, and more to do with the fact that everything just seems so half-baked. It seems like a mishmash of different story lines that aren't really held together that well, and a villain that is never fully and satisfactorily explained. Maybe I just need to see the movie again to pick up on some of the plot subtleties, assuming there are any. I just got the distinct feeling that Shane Black didn't take the character or the comic book seriously, and viewed it all as a joke. I'm left with the impression that it was just an opportunity to have a good time with RDJ again. The only parts of the film that had any weight to them were the Mandarin videos. This in contrast to The Avengers, which had weight in spite of including many funny scenes. It felt like a Looney Tunes cartoon. I know several of the people I went with (who aren't comic book readers, and could care less about the comic book history of the Mandarin) felt that the movie was cheesy. I dunno. I still think it's a 6 or 7 out of 10, but I can't help but be disappointed.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I think my issues with the film have less to do with the decisions they made, and more to do with the fact that everything just seems so half-baked. It seems like a mishmash of different story lines that aren't really held together that well, and a villain that is never fully and satisfactorily explained.

Yeah, this. The Mandarin twist wasn't a bad idea, it was just not done well. It was a gag, not a plot twist.

 

[DIrishB]

I love the audacity of turning Iron Man's arch nemesis (who has always been a terrible villain) into a brilliant joke to set up another villain and throw the story off the wheels. Everyone I've seen it with - none of whom are really Iron Man fans - were continually saying how they simply did not see the twist coming nor did they know where the film was going and were EXCITED. The last time I saw that reaction from people was THE DARK KNIGHT. It was excellent.

I just cannot understand the criticisms. Mandarin had more dignity as a drug-addled alcoholic than Loki in THE AVENGERS who is continually insulted, mocked, outwitted, and finally beaten up like a looney toon by the Hulk. Yes, it was funny, but the film was never exciting because the villain was never a threat. I really don't understand why this film gets any slight choice criticized when other films are lauded as the pinnacle (X2, SPIDEY 2, BATMAN BEGINS, and AVENGERS) when they not only possess more flaws as IM3, but are more egregious in them. Ken Watanabe turns out not to be Ra's? No problem even though it doesn't mean anything nor change anything in the story. Loki gets pummeled by a loony toon while being a slave for a villain who never shows up but *might* be in the sequel, along with a Dark Phoenix we never get, or a plot if illness that Spidey suddenly gets over and it has no virtue in the plot at all - but those films are fine. This one? Nit-picked endlessly.

I've seen it three times and I still love it and it is so very "Marvel". Witty and exciting and flamboyant in all the right ways.

Thank you. Though describing it as "witty, exciting, and flamboyant" equates it essentially to Dame Edna. Though come to think of it, that might be a comparison Black would accept welcomingly.

But it seems to all boil down to Mandarin. I can understand the disappointment of comic fans having the rug swept out from under them, but at the same time I think it's important to remember this is a separate universe from the comics continuity, and daring and shocking approaches like this should be taken occasionally.

My biggest gripe was, like Cap said, with the Extremis soldiers' and their fire and exploding abilities. It wasn't explained other than the plant exploding at the beginning and acting as a plot point for the "terrorist explosions" later in the film. But the science behind it was illogical. Essentially the Extremis formula allowed humans to tap into unused or barely used areas of the brain, and I can even buy the advanced healing properties they obtained (apparently Wolverine isn't so special after all), but the intense heat thing didn't work on multiple levels. For one, Tony killed Ellen Brandt by blowing her up and apparently electrocuting her when she landed on the power lines. And he killed Savin by using his chest repulsor and blowing a hole through his chest. If their bodies were capable of regeneration of such extreme capacity and withstanding their own heat output, why was the heat generated by the electricity or Tony's repulsor so deadly?

But whatever, I liked the Mandarin reveal, both for the twist it provided, how it spoke volumes about Killian, and as a social commentary in today's world.

 

[Bass]

They didn't make a clown out of Ra's for the change. They did something clever without insulting fans of the characters.

It wasn't clever. It was pointless. And "insulting" the fans? Really?

So what if he was a terrible villain? The point is to bring these characters to life in a realistic and respectful way. Not give up on them and turn them into jokes.

The criticism is that they didn't 'respect' Mandarin. But he's a terrible villain. So he doesn't deserve respect. Secondly, they did respect him. Before he turns out to be Trevor Slattery, he was terrifying. He was an excellent villain. The portrayal of the Mandarin as the Mandarin in the movie is better than any comic book has ever done it. And it was protrayed by Sir Ben Kinglsey.

The Hulk's a loony toon? I, personally, don't care for Thanos but the fact that he showed up and "might" not be in the sequel just shows me how invested Marvel is in expanding the movie-verse while still connecting them through out.

I mistyped. It was meant to say "Loki gets pummeled like a looney toon", not "by a looney toon".

Everyone knows that because production turned into a **** show once Singer dropped out. We could/would have gotten the Dark Phoenix we were supposed to if they were as dedicated to the finished product they were supposed to be. But why are you including this in your argument? No one thought X3 was good.

I was criticising X2, not X3. Everyone loves X2 even though X2 is a 2-hour set-up for a film that never got made. Apparently, a 2-hour trailer is more tolerable than a 2-hour film that is self-contained and pays off its own set-ups. X2 sets up, for the whole film, the terror of... the Dark Phoenix. Who never shows up. Just like Thanos. Both may show up in the next one. IRON MAN 3 sets up the terror of... the Mandarin! But, the Mandarin is a front for AIM, and the whole Mandarin story is set-up and resolved in a single movie. I'm saying, a pay-off to a set-up is better than a set-up with no pay-off at all. No matter what one may think of the Trevor reveal, at least IRON MAN 3 paid off its set ups. X2 and AVENGERS didn't bother.

It didn't make any sense. I get the whole "you have to believe in yourself" theme they were going for but it was a bit convenient.

Right. But no one was going, "man, that illness stuff was stupid" when it came out (except me). But Tony's panic attacks are fair game.

It just came out 2 days ago. This is when it gets nit-picked. And this film pulled off something that should be nit-picked especially in this community more than anything you mentioned.

Except other films, worse than it, weren't nitpicked in 2 days. There was, "I didn't really get this BUT I DON'T CARE BECAUSE HE'S ALWAYS ANGRY". I just cannot understand this bizarre disconnect where the judgment of people is so off, just because fans think they 'own' these characters and they need to be respected and that fans are "insulted" if they don't.

Mandarin was respected. He was a grotesquely racist villain with nonsense magical alien rings that has been overstated as Iron Man's archnemesis because there has never been anyone to take his place and because Iron Man has never really been a particularly good hero in the first place. This film took that character, turned him into a brilliant, credible villain, then used the theatricality and trappings of the original character (devoid of the racism – they only used the good parts) to turn the story in such a way as to create a sense of danger in the unexpected.

Yeah, this. The Mandarin twist wasn't a bad idea, it was just not done well. It was a gag, not a plot twist.

Gags and plot twists are not exclusive. Gags can twist the plots just as straight moments can. This gag twisted the plot.

Thank you. Though describing it as "witty, exciting, and flamboyant" equates it essentially to Dame Edna. Though come to think of it, that might be a comparison Black would accept welcomingly.

But it seems to all boil down to Mandarin. I can understand the disappointment of comic fans having the rug swept out from under them, but at the same time I think it's important to remember this is a separate universe from the comics continuity, and daring and shocking approaches like this should be taken occasionally.

You know what this whole argument reminds me of?

"They wasted Two-Face in THE DARK KNIGHT!"

 

[Ice]

Video: The Iron Man 3 End Credit Sequences We Never Got

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

It wasn't clever. It was pointless. And "insulting" the fans? Really?

At the time, yes. It was a contemporary take on Ra's "immortality" without using the lazarus pit. And it was a trick that was fresh. And the main point being they didn't turn him into a gag. Could you imagine if The Joker showed up as a sideshow act with the ringleader of the circus being the true villain?

The criticism is that they didn't 'respect' Mandarin. But he's a terrible villain. So he doesn't deserve respect. Secondly, they did respect him. Before he turns out to be Trevor Slattery, he was terrifying. He was an excellent villain. The portrayal of the Mandarin as the Mandarin in the movie is better than any comic book has ever done it. And it was protrayed by Sir Ben Kinglsey.

So the haters should be happy with the build up and remember only the parts where he was a menance behind the camera? Why do you keep saying he was a terrible villain? You know that was never the point. This site started off dedicated to a line that was supposed to revamp all characters into contemporary realistic characters. No one cares how racist he was back in the day. It's 2013.

I mistyped. It was meant to say "Loki gets pummeled like a looney toon", not "by a looney toon".

That was a 5 second scene between two GODLIKE characters. Not only was it meant to look funny but also convey the actions between two beings that were able to defy logic and it to the human eye would look "silly". That's why it was perfect.

I was criticising X2, not X3. Everyone loves X2 even though X2 is a 2-hour set-up for a film that never got made. Apparently, a 2-hour trailer is more tolerable than a 2-hour film that is self-contained and pays off its own set-ups. X2 sets up, for the whole film, the terror of... the Dark Phoenix. Who never shows up. Just like Thanos. Both may show up in the next one. IRON MAN 3 sets up the terror of... the Mandarin! But, the Mandarin is a front for AIM, and the whole Mandarin story is set-up and resolved in a single movie. I'm saying, a pay-off to a set-up is better than a set-up with no pay-off at all. No matter what one may think of the Trevor reveal, at least IRON MAN 3 paid off its set ups. X2 and AVENGERS didn't bother.

I'm not going to tell you what or what not to say Bass. Don't you think you should drop this argument until they officially don't have Thanos show up in any future stories? And as I've already said Singer dropped out X-Men, took Cyclops, and writers with him. That's why we didn't get the intended payoff.

Right. But no one was going, "man, that illness stuff was stupid" when it came out (except me). But Tony's panic attacks are fair game.

Yeah, they were anxiety attacks caused by his experiences with things that a human being isn't supposed to comprehend. Gods, Aliens, Monsters. It was explained in the movie outright. The "illness" in Spider-Man 2 wasn't exactly explained therefore, Tony's panic attacks are more plausible and don't need to be criticized as harshly.

Except other films, worse than it, weren't nitpicked in 2 days. There was, "I didn't really get this BUT I DON'T CARE BECAUSE HE'S ALWAYS ANGRY". I just cannot understand this bizarre disconnect where the judgment of people is so off, just because fans think they 'own' these characters and they need to be respected and that fans are "insulted" if they don't.

People just like me and you 'own' these characters. Any of us could have taken the story in a different direction or made different decisions if we were in the position to. Doesn't really seem so bizarre or disconnect of judgement to me. This is what we do here. Talk about what we would do differently and why.

Mandarin was respected. He was a grotesquely racist villain with nonsense magical alien rings that has been overstated as Iron Man's archnemesis because there has never been anyone to take his place and because Iron Man has never really been a particularly good hero in the first place. This film took that character, turned him into a brilliant, credible villain, then used the theatricality and trappings of the original character (devoid of the racism – they only used the good parts) to turn the story in such a way as to create a sense of danger in the unexpected.

Which would have been fine if they didn't turn him in such a way to "kill" the character off without a payoff. Kind of like a mini argument of your phoenix. They promised us something and didn't quite deliver.

But whatever, I liked the Mandarin reveal, both for the twist it provided, how it spoke volumes about Killian, and as a social commentary in today's world.

I don't want to take it too far but the social commentary I saw was that terrorist play a lesser role to corporate war hawks. I feel like that doesn't really relate to reality as opposed to conspiracy.

Video: The Iron Man 3 End Credit Sequences We Never Got

I really enjoyed the end credits. Kind of snuck up on me as I was waiting for the end credit scene. I sat there and actually caught myself thinking it was really fun.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I love all you guys.

 

[ProjectX2]

How dare you people like some movies and not others. How dare you!