Bass
Nexus of the World
Oh, you were all insulted long before I showed up. Shane Black and Marvel insulted you. Robert Downey Jr insulted you.
Look – I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but you guys are being ridiculous with your hurt pride.
When I say, "I can't have a discussion because you're not reading the story properly", I don't mean that to be "you're a stupid fanboy". This is what I do for a living. I don't expect people to necessarily have the same depth of knowledge about story structure and what not. I've seen IRON MAN 3 three times. So when I say, "you didn't read it good", I don't mean, "because you are incapable of doing so." I'm not dismissing your critcisms because of your mindset as "stupid fanboys", I'm trying to point out that your criticisms are based on misreadings of the text.
For example; people complain the Mandarin is a joke. I point out that Loki is a walking punch-line for 2 hours who is beaten by the Hulk in a way reminiscent of a Looney Tunes cartoon, and yet this isn't a problem for anyone. The point I'm making is that Loki's defeat is okay, but Mandarin's isn't, and surely, making the villain a joke isn't inherently bad because you accept in in THE AVENGERS. It's pointing out that you're being either too harsh to IRON MAN or too forgiving to THE AVENGERS.
However, when I said this, Mwof said that Loki only got beaten up by the Hulk after he was defeated, and Tog went on to add that Loki wanted to be defeated and sent back to Asgard and so he got what he want. Yet this just isn't true. Loki was fighting Thor (and won) and riding around on his flying jet-ski thing, and Hawkeye shoots an arrow at him... and Loki catches it! Then the arrow explodes, knocking Loki off onto Stark Tower. Then Hulk jumps up and smashes Loki through a wall. Loki yells, "Enough! You are all of you beneath me! I am a god you dull creature and I will not be bullied by..." CUT TO: Hulk smashing Loki. Hulk leaves Loki, groaning, in a crater. That is the last we see of him until the Avengers, after dispatching the Chitauri and sealing the wormhole, 'arrest' him.
Loki was defeated by the Hulk. Before then, he was totally in control. He was defeated as a punchline. He wasn't already defeated. What's more, it's clear, continuously through the story, he wants to be worshipped as a god on Earth. That's the point of his outrage at Hulk, "I'm a god you dull creature". Iron Man tells him there's no "throne" for him.
This is why I said, "I can't have a discussion". If we're going to discuss if the Hulk defeating Loki was a good choice or a bad choice, and you deny that Hulk defeated him, how can we discuss it? I can't, because we're talking about two films here; the one that exists, and the one you've imagined by cobbling together elements you remember and misremember. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but I'm not saying, "Because you don't recall the story correctly, therefore you're stupid and untitled to your disposition towards the work", but I am saying, "Your criticisms are invalid because they don't correlated with what is actually in the story".
You said they "NEED regular people" and couldn't work out why. I'm saying that they don't, and are surrounded by people who aren't regular. As for Iron May – it would depend. For example, I would've thought Pepper getting in an Iron Man suit would suck, except, the idea of Tony putting her in a suit to save her was great. Such a thing could work with Aunt May, but it would depend on the May we're talking about. The Bendis/Bagley May of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN could work in such a situation, but the frail Lee/Ditko May probably wouldn't. It's not so binary. You're whole point was Pepper can't, inherently, have any sort of powers or abilities, and I'm saying, it's an arbitrary distinction you've made that isn't binding on any artist, nor able to hold up to any real scrutiny because, as I said, these characters are surrounded by "regular" people and "non-regular" people, and I don't think there's a point where you can go, "That's one too many 'non-regular' or 'regular' people."
This doesn't mean you should necessarily like Pepper in the suit or with powers, nor does it mean that Iron May would work – I'm certainly not saying that – but I'm specifically pointing out that "they need regular people" doesn't mean that, therefore, Pepper can never get powers of any kind and if she does, it's just wrong.
Let me put it like this: I think making Pepper and Tony lovers is a bigger mistake than temporarily giving her Iron Man armour or Extremis powers.
I'm not reaching. You're just incoherently making arbitrary definitions that, suddenly, everything is bound by. It's like your ridiculous mask-squinting rant that makes no sense.
Firstly, you say, the problem is Tony needs to be surrounded by "regular people", and taking that away from Pepper ruins everything. Except, Tony isn't surrounded just by regular people. His butler is a robot, his best friend is a military man in another Iron Man costume, his surrogate father turns out to be a super-villain (in another Iron Man costume), and he's part of a team of superheroes. The only two regular people in his life are Happy Hogan and Pepper Potts. Now, you're saying the robot is okay because he didn't turn into a robot over the course of the story, and Rhodes is okay because he's been War Machine for a "good portion of his existence", and you imply, that a proliferation of Iron Men is okay, but not the addition of a new piece of super-technology. Then, you make the point that the problem with the kid and camera guy and why they don't count, is because Tony isn't a close friend of theirs (even though, I think it's clear him and the kid bonded).
It doesn't make sense. It's okay for Rhodes to have the Iron Man suit because in other comics (not the film) he's been in the suit for ages. So, if Pepper had superpowers – related to the suit – for ages in the comic, that would be fine. But she didn't so she never can? And she can never have non-suit related powers? Iron Men suits aren't "super-powers" because they're machines, but machines that genetically engineer you aren't allowed, but alien gods are?
It doesn't make any sense. Jarvis can be a robot. Rhodes can get into the suit. Iron Man can be friends with the Hulk, Thor, and Captain America and fight aliens and genetic mutants. But Pepper can never ever be genetically engineered.
It's not a matter of me "having" that one. You're just so enraged at the film for something you decided was unforgivable, so when I point out that you've missed a point in the film, you're acting like I'm using some sort of trick to make my point. I'm not. It's there. It's not a point I can "have". It's just what's in the movie.
So... when you thought he was a bad-ass who could hide like "Solid Snake", that was wrong. Now, that he isn't a bad-ass, that too is wrong. It's not possible for you to be satisfied.
The only times he gets stuff wrong is when he's with Rhodes because Rhodes is military and acts in a military way, and Tony improvises. So when he's with Rhodes, and without the suit, he comes off as reckless, insubordinate, and incompetent. It's been that way since the first IRON MAN film.
Of course it is. It's pace is distractingly slow. When you first read a story, you're propelled by narrative drive and curiosity, "How will this turn out?". That drive diminishes with subsequent readings because you know the answer, and pace is directly tied to creating narrative drive. The EXTREMIS story's pace is so slow, and the ending so anti-climactic, that the story can never really get going. The story is all about Tony feeling conflicted over how his weapons technology is destructive, yet it saves people, and he wants to stay out of military contracts, it mentions the weapons he's made in the past, and none of this is ever really resolved in any way, instead, the story goes off with this white supremacist who doesn't really do much of anything other than cause mayhem, Iron Man defeats him, then out of nowhere, arrests Maya and it ends. The story hasn't aged well, and the "shaman" they visit may as well just be called "Warren Ellis", it's such a transparent device for authorial intent. I was really surprised. I remembered loving the first four or so issues and remembered it petered out, and I hadn't read it in years, and I re-read it after I saw the film and was surprised at how much of my original enjoyment was in the anticipation of something coming from the first couple of issues' set ups.
Don't get me wrong – it's not bad. Granov's art is still beautiful. But the story is pretty empty. I love the inner conflict in Stark in the story, I just wish it really went somewhere.
You're focusing on one sentence and ignoring what actually happens.
Iron Man confronts Maya and explains that she and Killian intentionally made the Extremis villain to fight Iron Man, beat Iron Man, and get military funding to create more extremis enhanciles.
"The army pulled the extremis funding. No field test. No more moeny. Even though you had a working process. So you and your boss decided to arrange a live demonstration yourselves. Dose a terrorist with extremis. Then call your friend Tony Stark, who employs Iron Man. An extremis enhancile tested against a man wearing the most advanced personal combat system on Earth." (My emphasis.)
Maya, clearly, didn't want the enhancile to lose to Iron Man because then the test would be a failure. What's more, she wanted the enhancile to kill Iron Man.
"You know what they said about the atomic bomb? They said it had to be used once in anger, in order that it never be used in anger again. I would have used the renewed funding to get out of the arms race. Set up on my own. Medical technology. More than fifty people die in car accidents every day. The only mistake I made was giving a damn about who was in the Iron Man suit. There's no difference between us, Tony. You're no better than me." (My emphasis.)
Sure, she wants to get out and do medical research. But to get that, she's willing to sell the army a device that will create super soldiers – that is the entire point of her story: get the military to fund her research into making super soldiers so she can quit and do medical research. And to do that, she's willing to kill not just Iron Man, but innocent civilians. Look at what she says. "More than fifty people die in car accidents every day." People die all the time, she thinks, so why not have them die in the name of research? You know where Ellis got that idea? From the eugenic programmes of Nazi Germany. She likens Extremis to an atomic bomb. And, she makes it clear that the only reason she didn't let the extremis enhancile kill Iron Man was because Tony was in the suit, because she "gave a damn". Her final remarks aren't even her saying, "I'm not the villain", her remarks are, "You're a villain too, you just don't see it." and then lamenting that she didn't kill Tony. And none of this addresses the fact that Killian committed suicide over his guilt, and Maya actively tried to cover up her involvement.
This is precisely the same moral psychology Maya has in the film, except, in the film, Maya is more heroic than her comic counterpart when she threatens to kill herself if Killian doesn't let Tony go, and doesn't drive anyone to suicide.
The Maya in the film has more moral strength than the Maya in the comic. Yet you say I'm misreading it and that the film had "no need to turn Maya Hensen into a villain". Maya Hensen, in extremis, by the end of the story, has no moral founding, and regrets the one time she showed Tony Stark any compassion.
This is why I say, "you're not paying attention" and why I can't have a discussion, because I'm not discussing the story: I'm reading it to you.
If that sounds condescending, I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend. But it's true. You can hate IRON MAN 3 all you want, but temper it with some sense of consideration. "This didn't work, I really disliked [blah]" is a lot more palatable than, "They insulted the fans" or "This is as bad as BATMAN & ROBIN", then, when I point out that none of your complaints are accurate depictions of the film, immediately start to bitterly complain about my conduct.
I agree. However, she fell into a pit of fire. The fact she (and Killian) had any clothes on at all is remarkable. I think she could've had a loose, ripped shirt that didn't show much.
But – it's quite possible Gwyneth Paltrow demanded that she showed off her body. It's possible she protested against it. I honestly don't know. But I didn't like the final choice much either.
No idea. I loved him. I wonder if he'll show up.
Robot is a non-human worker, isn't it? Robots can have artificial intelligences. Do they need the body? I should think that "robot" is an all-inclusive term. Androids are specifically, "human-looking robots". I suppose AI would be more appropriate, but I like the word "robot" dammit! *pounds fists on the table*
Yeah, there seems to be a lot of focusing on that "I am the Mandarin!" line and the tattoos. I thought it was quite clear that when he's saying that, he's just demanding respect from Tony because he's totally lost and he's grandstanding. "Give ME respect!" kind of thing. I don't think it's a literal proclamation. Maybe it is. I just don't get the focus that everyone gives it. It's really a small line with small repercussions.
Anyhow, I think you're analysis on the two arcs of the film is quite right. The Mandarin story is both exciting and intriguing, and the revelation, you like, you just don't like that it's funny. You're quite right when you imply that it could be done seriously. It could be done seriously, or it could be done for laughs. One fun creative exercise for writers is to take a comedy and turn it into a drama, or vice-versa. So, sure, you could make the fact that the Mandarin not being a figurehead a serious turn: BATMAN BEGINS, for example does that. But it fails, not because it's not funny but because the turn is meaningless. A way to make the Mandarin reveal serious is to simply have Trevor Slattery be absolutely terrified and really messed up. But, I think, it wouldn't work. I think the tonal shift would be too stark (no pun intended). The IRON MAN franchise is built around being somewhat light-hearted, and a lot of the emotional weight is carried by Robert Downey Jr. The first IRON MAN was written and directed by Jon Favreau, who, before that, was a comedy writer/director. IRON MAN just has this tone of lightness and fun – a kid helps him in the film, strippers on his plane, and so on. I think the funny turn was just so... appropriate and it worked.
So I can understand that maybe the emphasis is off for you, this I understand, I sympathise. Sometimes things can just be off for an individual. I just find it hard to then go with this preposterous, "they insulted us" mentality.
But this is what I meant by being able to have a discussion – we're talking about the same film. Not one you invented in your head and held it up to standards that it doesn't need to meet. This is, "I was really intrigued, and when they revealed it as a joke, I lost interest", which I find an interesting response to the film, since for me, it was, "I was really intrigued, and never saw that coming, and laughed my ass off, then it had this fun, roller-coaster ending".
There are some interesting parallels! I like that. Two major problems with the synopsis – one, the kid isn't annoying (take it back! – okay, he's annoying in PHANTOM MENACE). Two, there isn't a "reveal" that the villain is a disappointment. Darth Maul is Darth Maul. There is a reveal a mastermind is behind it, and the mastermind does have political ambitions, but there isn't a reveal like the Trevor reveal. But yes, there are some (amusing) similarities.
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