Grand Theft America speculation (Ultimates 2 spoilers)

[randomthoughts]

I think Ultron ends up a Shadow Ultimate after Pym is arrested in issue 6 for having an illegal super- team. He's used in pre- emptive strikes and Cap learns this when the cyborg goes a little out of control on the collateral damage front. Knowing Millars political beliefs, there definately has to be something dark behind the Ultimates, and I believe Cap and Fury will have it out by the end of the series. I'd also like to see the original 616 Avengers (Cap, Pym, Wasp, Thor, Iron Man, maybe Banner?) ditching the government sponsored Ultimates and going to take down Ultron themselves, with the other Ultimates and SHIELD trying to stop them.

 

[Bass]

Hey, i got a theory. What if Ultron is just a persona for Hank? I mean, one day, Hank snaps (Hes known for breakdowns and when he was yellowjacket he thought he was someone else who killed pym).

Hank snaps from losing his job, his wife, etc. and thinks hes someone else called Ultron. He can have an adamantium suit.

I doubt it will happen, but i thought it was an idea worth sharing

I've been thinking about this - just where is Ant-Man, and Yellowjacket? I wouldn't be surprised if Ultron's AI was based on Pym - which in a way would make him a split personality. And maybe Ultron's been built off Vision?

 

[Goodwill]

No, please leave Vision out of this... He's better suited for something over in the Galactus story. Ultron and Pym should be partners in crime... Also, what if Ultron was part of the Defenders and turned against them?

 

[fantomex]

Hey, i got a theory. What if Ultron is just a persona for Hank? I mean, one day, Hank snaps (Hes known for breakdowns and when he was yellowjacket he thought he was someone else who killed pym).

Hank snaps from losing his job, his wife, etc. and thinks hes someone else called Ultron. He can have an adamantium suit.

I doubt it will happen, but i thought it was an idea worth sharing

that would be a cool thing to see hank in the ultron suit.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Maybe I can bring it into here. Since Jtg bashed me...

Anyway, I was over at comixfan and someone else had thoughts about Widow taking information and technology from SHIELD. So I put the two thoughts together (The title of the next arc and my feelings on the Widow) and I figured it made sense. I think Widow's stealing Technology for herself to give to the highest bidder. I mean she was introduced in Ultimate Team-ups and says to Fury that she wants to work for him. Ok, Why? Something's not right.

 

[jtg3885]

And since you felt the need to drag it up, I'll put you down again. We already have three rogue Ultimates. I find it highly unlikely we're going to see a fourth Ultimate break away. That'd be overkill and probably as well received as if we saw Aunt May's eighth coming back from the dead.

If you feel the need to run with the "someone's stealing from the Ultimates" in a incredibly direct translation of the 'Grand Theft America' title, Hank is the most likely suspect, since we already know he's holding out on the Ultron plans, and appears to be working on him in U2 #4.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

If you feel the need to run with the "someone's stealing from the Ultimates" in a incredibly direct translation of the 'Grand Theft America' title, Hank is the most likely suspect, since we already know he's holding out on the Ultron plans, and appears to be working on him in U2 #4.

Dear Jtg,

How do I fight you on this without you acting like a complete snob to me or without me getting all fired up? Chill out with your responses. I come in peace.

Anyway Giant-Man Vs. Widow argument. Hank is not the most likely suspect at all. I'd like other people's input on this too. I, personally, do not feel Hank is an evil person. I think Hank's trying to redeem himself or is going to try to redeem himself with the Defenders. The whole Ultron thing, if Ultimate Ultron turns evil, is going to be an innocent mistake on Hank's part. His intentions are good. Does anyone else feel this way about him or is it just me?

The Black Widow, we know nothing about. We don't know anything about her past. We know that they trust her entirely too easily.

I'll say it again...

Bruce Banner did not betray the Ultimates. He tried to help them save face with really ugly results.

Thor is not betraying the Ultimates at all. If you think or feel that he is you're reading the title in the wrong context. Thor's one of the good guys he's being set up by Loki.

There's a difference between reading a story where they're pointing fingers at the wrong man and a story that has them getting robbed right from under their noses. The latter being what Widow is doing to them, I think.

The Question I have is, In the solicitations does it say that whoever is leaking the information out is going to be outed by the end of this arc. I don't remember them saying anything so maybe this whole Thor/Loki thing won't even have to do with the leak and that's just what Thor is assuming Loki is up to. I could see the Thor/Loki conflict being resolved and the informant not being caught... leading into GTA.

I think my thought/theory on this is pretty well thought out. So JTG, if you don't like it which I know you don't or if you don't have anymore to comment on the new things I've added to it, don't go all on the offensive with me. I don't feel like mods tellin' me to chill because I can't express my views. Thanks.

 

[jtg3885]

I said rogue, not evil, or betraying. One of the definitions of the adjective form sums up my thoughts perfectly: "Operating outside of normal or desirable controls."

Anyway Giant-Man Vs. Widow argument. Hank is not the most likely suspect at all. I'd like other people's input on this too. I, personally, do not feel Hank is an evil person. I think Hank's trying to redeem himself or is going to try to redeem himself with the Defenders. The whole Ultron thing, if Ultimate Ultron turns evil, is going to be an innocent mistake on Hank's part. His intentions are good. Does anyone else feel this way about him or is it just me?

He's most definitely got some sort of psychological problem, probably one of the varieties of bipolar disorder. As a person of experience about behavior in that corner, I can honestly say that when I'm in a manic episode, the good or evil, the right or wrong, of my actions doesn't matter. He wouldn't see anything wrong with keeping the Ultron plans because his brain simply recognizes them as 'mine', and doesn't go complex enough to think about the legalities behind what he's doing. The same goes for hitting Janet, it's not "she's a woman, I love her, etc.", once the fight started, it's just "must win". Going back to Ultron at least (I'm not touching on if the Defenders is a legal thing), stealing plans from the US government to continue work on your own qualifies as "operating outside of normal or desirable controls", no? One rogue Ultimate.

Bruce Banner did not betray the Ultimates. He tried to help them save face with really ugly results.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he took the Hulk serum of his own initiative, caused a huge mess, and (supposedly) got put down like a dog for the 800+ deaths he caused. That fits with "outside normal or desirable controls", no? That's two rogue Ultimates.

Thor is not betraying the Ultimates at all. If you think or feel that he is you're reading the title in the wrong context. Thor's one of the good guys he's being set up by Loki.

Rather than stay with the Ultimates and try and reasonably work out his issues with Fury and the US government, he takes off, and starts working to try and turn public opinion against the use of American super-soldiers in any kind of military capacity. From Fury's POV, that's definitely "operating outside normal or desirable controls". Three rogue Ultimates.

There's a difference between reading a story where they're pointing fingers at the wrong man and a story that has them getting robbed right from under their noses. The latter being what Widow is doing to them, I think.

And yet again, we'd have a fourth rogue Ultimate, and unless you've totally missed out on the SOP of the Ultimates, doing something like that gets you chased and smacked down. Or well, an attempted smack down if the cover of U2 #5 is any indication. Why would readers want to see the exact same thing as the Thor hunting arc spread out over six or seven issues of 'Grand Theft America'?

The Question I have is, In the solicitations does it say that whoever is leaking the information out is going to be outed by the end of this arc. I don't remember them saying anything so maybe this whole Thor/Loki thing won't even have to do with the leak and that's just what Thor is assuming Loki is up to. I could see the Thor/Loki conflict being resolved and the informant not being caught... leading into GTA.

Loki definitely appears, but if he's not the source of the leak, I can't believe they'd let it ride going into GTA. The fact that they've announced it as two distinct arcs makes me think that if everything was interconnected, it just would have been Ultimates 2, no special names. Then again... I got into it after U1 was already completely out... did they announce it as two arcs or one?

I think my thought/theory on this is pretty well thought out. So JTG, if you don't like it which I know you don't or if you don't have anymore to comment on the new things I've added to it, don't go all on the offensive with me. I don't feel like mods tellin' me to chill because I can't express my views. Thanks.

Honestly, it's not that well thought out. That's why when I brought my opinion against yours the FIRST time this came up, people pointed out that my rebuttals to your comments were good points, and you dropped it. Did we really need to do this a second time?

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Anyway Giant-Man Vs. Widow argument. Hank is not the most likely suspect at all. I'd like other people's input on this too. I, personally, do not feel Hank is an evil person. I think Hank's trying to redeem himself or is going to try to redeem himself with the Defenders. The whole Ultron thing, if Ultimate Ultron turns evil, is going to be an innocent mistake on Hank's part. His intentions are good. Does anyone else feel this way about him or is it just me?

I completely 100% feel that way. He tries to be the hero, and ends up screwing himself over. He's not a bad guy, just an emotionally unbalanced guy who's causing a lot of problems all around.

 

[E]

What's that saying..."opinions are like a--"

Never mind.

 

[jtg3885]

Everyone's got one, some are more obnoxious than others, and they all stink?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

He's most definitely got some sort of psychological problem, probably one of the varieties of bipolar disorder. As a person of experience about behavior in that corner, I can honestly say that when I'm in a manic episode, the good or evil, the right or wrong, of my actions doesn't matter. He wouldn't see anything wrong with keeping the Ultron plans because his brain simply recognizes them as 'mine', and doesn't go complex enough to think about the legalities behind what he's doing. The same goes for hitting Janet, it's not "she's a woman, I love her, etc.", once the fight started, it's just "must win". Going back to Ultron at least (I'm not touching on if the Defenders is a legal thing), stealing plans from the US government to continue work on your own qualifies as "operating outside of normal or desirable controls", no? One rogue Ultimate.

That doesn't mean he's going to betray the Ultimates. The whole pyschological problems that he has is the reason Ultron is going to betray him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he took the Hulk serum of his own initiative, caused a huge mess, and (supposedly) got put down like a dog for the 800+ deaths he caused. That fits with "outside normal or desirable controls", no? That's two rogue Ultimates.

You know what's real funny. When I read the issue I felt sorry for both Hank and Bruce. The way you're talking though... haha this is quite silly but I keep pictureing you as one of the prosecution against Banner... almost like you're the bad guy...
See JTG reading these comics you're supposed to get a feel that there's indeed a very deep shade of grey to life. I don't think you grasp that shade of grey and you're more of a black and white kind of guy. The hulk's character is all about inner struggle of man vs. himself. Do you understand that? Bruce Banner is not a bad man he was pushed by outside forces to take action. Own initiative? Sorry but he's not fully to blame for what he did. First off there was a woman involved :? . Second, he had no respect from his peers and he was alone. If you were the Hulk, how would you feel? Would you take the blame for everything that happened to you?

Loki definitely appears, but if he's not the source of the leak, I can't believe they'd let it ride going into GTA. The fact that they've announced it as two distinct arcs makes me think that if everything was interconnected, it just would have been Ultimates 2, no special names. Then again... I got into it after U1 was already completely out... did they announce it as two arcs or one?

It's two arcs but I don't mean they'd just let it ride. They'd assume it was Thor/Loki by the end but really more information gets released and that would lead into GTA. I can see it happening.

Honestly, it's not that well thought out.

Well hey thanks for you're input again JTG. Always appreciated :wink:

I completely 100% feel that way. He tries to be the hero, and ends up screwing himself over. He's not a bad guy, just an emotionally unbalanced guy who's causing a lot of problems all around.

Thanks, Doc. His intentions are good. That's all we're sayin'.

 

[Ice]

Ok, I don't know if this has been mentioned before (forgive me if it has), and this just like, popped into my head.


What if Grand Theft America is about Loki trying to take over the land that his brother cares so much about?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

What if Grand Theft America is about Loki trying to take over the land that his brother cares so much about?

What land is that? That seems to be the entire Earth.

 

[Ice]

What land is that? That seems to be the entire Earth.

Oh, sorry. I mean America (hence the title... :roll, since that is where Thor seems to mostly be. Again, its just a thought that popped in my head, and I just wanted to say it. No thinking went into it....

 

[jtg3885]

*blinks* Isn't Thor a Norwegian national?

And MWoB, you should READ what I write before you respond, no? I'm not asking you to debate the morality of a character's actions, or their motives. I was simply asking whether or not each set of actions fit the adjective definition of 'rogue' or not. You seem to have missed the point of the entire post.

And taking a needle full of chemicals and injecting yourself, when not at gunpoint or under some other direct threat of bodily harm, qualifies as doing it of your own volition. The way you put it, we should feel sorry for those poor friendless kids who decided to shoot up Columbine.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

*blinks* Isn't Thor a Norwegian national?

And MWoB, you should READ what I write before you respond, no? I'm not asking you to debate the morality of a character's actions, or their motives. I was simply asking whether or not each set of actions fit the adjective definition of 'rogue' or not. You seem to have missed the point of the entire post.

And taking a needle full of chemicals and injecting yourself, when not at gunpoint or under some other direct threat of bodily harm, qualifies as doing it of your own volition. The way you put it, we should feel sorry for those poor friendless kids who decided to shoot up Columbine.

Nope I got the point. You're saying they're "rogues" and that it all feels like the same gig as with Hank, Bruce, Thor. I say that Widow is different from the three of them as she actually has agenda. I'd like to know what MWoB means.

As for part two of your post. [insert middle finger] here. Don't be a jerk. Again you have no sense of the grey zone.

 

[jtg3885]

ManWithoutBrains. Or other parts of your anatomy that begin with a 'b', but I'm supposed to be kid-friendly here.

There is no grey zone when you shoot up on untested Super Soldier serum and go on a rampage. I don't give a **** if he has woman problems, or he's disliked. Millions of people all over the world go through that everyday, and you don't see each and every one of them going on rampages. He ****ed up, he paid the price for his actions.

But since you're obviously such an expert on the grey zone... let's go back to Columbine there. Senseless murder of innocents due to the idiotic actions of people with mental problems. Can you grey that up for me? Tell me perhaps why we should feel anything but hatred and disgust for the teens who did it? Hmm?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

ManWithoutBrains. Or other parts of your anatomy that begin with a 'b', but I'm supposed to be kid-friendly here.

There is no grey zone when you shoot up on untested Super Soldier serum and go on a rampage. I don't give a **** if he has woman problems, or he's disliked. Millions of people all over the world go through that everyday, and you don't see each and every one of them going on rampages. He ****ed up, he paid the price for his actions.

But since you're obviously such an expert on the grey zone... let's go back to Columbine there. Senseless murder of innocents due to the idiotic actions of people with mental problems. Can you grey that up for me? Tell me perhaps why we should feel anything but hatred and disgust for the teens who did it? Hmm?

Columbine doesn't belong in this thread. I'll wait for the next guy to discuss this topic with. You're too difficult to deal with.

 

[E]

Worst. Thread. Ever.