Daredevil series discussion (spoilers)

[Fredrik Martinsson]

I don't get the coin thing, i've never seen hawkeye (or clint) with a coin before?

I haven't either but it's just one of those things that fits his personality perfectly.

 

[The Overlord]

This is ****. As said, there's no prior relationship between Clint and Daredevil. If it is Hawkeye it's just to please a few and I mean a few Marvel fanboys. I'm pretty certain DD fans won't be pleased.

I bet its a red herring. Hawkeye would make no sense, why would he do it?

 

[MoS]

This is ****. As said, there's no prior relationship between Clint and Daredevil. If it is Hawkeye it's just to please a few and I mean a few Marvel fanboys. I'm pretty certain DD fans won't be pleased.

But, see, the thing is that it won't please Hawkeye fans, either - as a fan of Brubaker's run on Daredevil and a fan of the Hawkeye character, I wouldn't be pleased with such an out-of-nowhere character substitution.

Why should DD fans give a **** about a character that has appeared in the title in an adversarial role, once, thirty-five years ago?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Why should DD fans give a **** about a character that has appeared in the title in an adversarial role, once, thirty-five years ago?

Because it's pointless and doesn't add anything interesting to the story just an excuse to put a character in limbo somewhere.

I'm glad to see a Hawkeye fan's reaction though. I'm especially disappointed that if this is the case that it is Hawkeye that many people realize that Hawkeye's reemergence in the MU has the potential to be a great and emotional story not just "we need someone to say, 'someone has to be Daredevil and fight the good fight', let's make it Clint. We've got nowhere else to put him".

But all and all I agree with Overlord. It's a red herring. Joe Q. plays this game too many times. He wouldn't let the revealation out this easily.

 

[MoS]

Assuming there is any validity to the "devil" hint (I know, I know....), Hawkeye also has a connection with Mephisto - Mephisto killed his wife (back in West Coast Avengers #100) and there was a Tbolts issue where Hawkeye literally went back to hell to try to get her spirit out of Mephisto's kingdom, where she was trapped in the "Arena of Tainted Souls" in permanent combat with other souls. As it turns out, Hawkeye was tricked into doing it by Daimon Hellstrom and instead brings back the body of Hellstrom's ex-wife, Patsy Walker, aka Hellcat. Presumably Mockingbird's spirit is still there, though the recent GLA miniseries and X-Statix: Dead Girl seemed to imply not.

Can't see how ANY story or plotline rehashing that fits into any Marvel title, and I really, seriously don't see Marvel giving Hawkeye another shot at a miniseries, not after his last one tanked. Plus, part of the reason the last one miniseries didn't do well (though previous ones did) was because Marvel editorial decreed that Hawkeye should be out of costume, in almost a "private detective" type of mystery - you'd think that would have told them that Clint-not-as-Hawkeye series wouldn't do well a second time.

So - either the hint is a snarky untruth to get fans going (doesn't that seem a tad... adversarial?, almost in contempt of fans?) or... I dunno what.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Gettinga bit off topic...

I thought Hawkeye's miniseries tanked because the writer was forced to write him in a different direction because Bendis wanted him for HoM.

 

[MoS]

Gettinga bit off topic...

I thought Hawkeye's miniseries tanked because the writer was forced to write him in a different direction because Bendis wanted him for HoM.

Hadn't heard that as a reason before, but certainly it was cancelled in a time frame that works with the planning stages for Disassembled. The miniseries (it was supposed to be an on-going, but since it only hit 8 issues, we can call it a mini) was running along parallel to Hawkeye's appearance in the main Avengers book. It started late 2003 and was cancelled in June 2004 (actually it was cancelled before issue 6 hit the stands, I think). The first arc was a 6 part story where a bored and relestless Hawkeye hops on his Harley and leaves Avengers Mansion, headed south for the hottest chili in the US and manages to get involved in a decades-old mystery that involves a stripper named Peppermint and takes him to Cambodia (?) to solve the mystery. He's out of costume for about 90% of the book, and although initial sales were good, they fell fast, and you can read lots of complaining on the net about Hawkeye being out of costume. The last two issues were a more traditional, in-costume, team-up with Black Widow and involved Russian agents. The reviews were better, but it was too late, as it had already been cancelled.

The other funny thing is that it shows him as having similar abilities to Ultimate Hawkeye, where anything in his hands can be used as a weapon (he uses common items to cause chain-reaction chaos, sort of like the old "Mousetrap" game, where he hits thing A with a rubber band and Thing A falls into something else, which trips Person B and they fall into Person C...).

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Advanced Spoilers on #86

Don't read if you don't want to know.

Starts off predictably tense. Matt can sense with his powers the riot that's about to break out and to make matters worse Becky Blake brought Milla down to visit him on such a day. Milla talks about Matt's breakdown and tells him this isn't the man she fell in love with... Yeah, Milla's becoming a big cliche and very repetitive.

In the meantime Wilson Fisk is sitting with Turk talking about the day ahead. He hands Turk an Ace of Spades card and tells him to go ahead with the plan.

As C.O. Gruber takes Murdock back to his cell, he complains that Murdock's taking to long. But Matt's taking his time waiting to see if Milla and Becky are off the island yet. He hears Black Tarantula's gang in the armory cocking their rifles and the whispers of the inmates. Most importantly he hears the ferry leaveing the island taking Becky and Milla off. The riot breaks out...

Murdock knocks out Gruber and heads off.

Turk finds himself with some lackey's infront of Bullseye's cell. Contemplating if it's such a good idea to let him out.

Matt runs into the warden whose about to get killed. Armed with Gruber's nightstick he takes out the attackers and saves the warden who heads to a secure location.

In GenPop Wilson Fisk fights off dozens of inmates. Matt steps in and the two fight them off together.

In security room the Warden watches the fight and discusses how Matt saved his life they also note the Punishe is sitting in his cell reading, only killing four inmates who attacked him first....

Hammerhead, Morgan, and Black Tarantula watch Ryker's go to Hell. They're pretty pleased with themselves until Morgan gets a playing card to the throat and falls over dead. Bullseye grabs a gun off of one of the dead inmates. Hammerhead jumps off the second floor and Bullseye looks at LaMuerto and asks if he's gonna "punk out too?".

Matt and Fisk fight off the jail's inmates but everything comes to a standstill when the Black Tarantula's lifeless body is tossed into the mix. Bullseye starts shooting down at the inmates and everyone runs scared.

Fisk and Matt argue about Bullseye being included and just as it seems Matt's about to let Bullseye escape with them, Matt replays a few words Karen once said to him. This sends Matt over the edge and he attacks Bullseye. Bullseye kicks him off and Fisk calls him and idiot for not accepting the plan. Bullseye takes a shot at Matt but Matt jumps out of the way and the bullet hits Fisk in the knee. Matt knocks Bullseye out. Wilson gives the "this isn't over between us." line and Matt leaves him there. As Matt moves to another part of the prison he tells Turk to make sure "his master" doesn't bleed out.

Matt arrives at Frank Castles cell holding a shot gun. Frank looks up from his book and asks if he's gonna use it? Matt gives him the gun and tells him they're gonna escape together with his help.

5/5

Wall to wall action and possibly the best issue of the arc. Some minor quibbles: Matt again let's Bullseye live... and there was no Ben Urich/Dakota North/fake Daredevil scenes -- only a mention from Becky that Dakota was busy.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Sounds like the hotness!!!! Can't wait to get it!!!!

 

[ProjectX2]

Daredevil + Prison Break = :rockon:

 

[The Overlord]

Advanced Spoilers on #86


Wall to wall action and possibly the best issue of the arc. Some minor quibbles: Matt again let's Bullseye live... and there was no Ben Urich/Dakota North/fake Daredevil scenes -- only a mention from Becky that Dakota was busy.

DD will never kill Bullseye, DD is not a murderer, he would never kill someone in cold blood. Its the same reason Batman hasn't killed the Joker or Spidey hasn't killed the Green Goblin.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

DD will never kill Bullseye, DD is not a murderer, he would never kill someone in cold blood. Its the same reason Batman hasn't killed the Joker or Spidey hasn't killed the Green Goblin.

Dude....he's in prison and they killed his best friend. It's on like DOnkey Kong now!!!! Given the right circumstance....I think he'd kill a man.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

DD will never kill Bullseye, DD is not a murderer, he would never kill someone in cold blood. Its the same reason Batman hasn't killed the Joker or Spidey hasn't killed the Green Goblin.

N-A-I-V-E. And it's been that way for how many years? It's ok to kill off supporting characters but I can't get my powerful moment of Mr. Johnny Superhero going over the edge and justifiably killing his arch enemy. I love Bullseye but the encounter has ended the same way about a dozen times.

And surprisingly this comes from you, Overlord, the man who begs for change and a chance for other villains to take the spotlight. It will never happen with Fisk and Bullseye running around. Never.

 

[The Overlord]

N-A-I-V-E. And it's been that way for how many years? It's ok to kill off supporting characters but I can't get my powerful moment of Mr. Johnny Superhero going over the edge and justifiably killing his arch enemy. I love Bullseye but the encounter has ended the same way about a dozen times.

And surprisingly this comes from you, Overlord, the man who begs for change and a chance for other villains to take the spotlight. It will never happen with Fisk and Bullseye running around. Never.

Perhaps, but lets be logical, Marvel will never kill off Bullseye, ever, he is too popular, same deal with the Kingpin, so there is no point in getting mad in DD not killing off. I've said I want another villain to take the spot light, because I think Kingpin and Bullseye are overexposed, they should be given some time of, they are used so often that they are in danger of becomming stale. Plus I bet a lot of DD fans would be cool to DD killing in cold blood.

 

[MoS]

Another "Brubaker on DD" interview, this time on Newsarama.

NRAMA: Does Matt care about anything anymore?

EB: Not really. Not at first. As you'll see in issue #86, he finds out there are still some things he does give a damn about, and that's not necessarily a good thing, not for him, when he's locked up in a cell.

NRAMA: All this time – since your first issue, there's been a "Daredevil" operating in Hell's Kitchen, and you've got Ben Urich and Dakota North – as well as readers – guessing who he is. So what can you say about who he is? Was he someone Matt set up to play the role while he was in jail?

EB: No, Matt has no idea who it is, and I will not say, other than it's one of my personal favorite Marvel characters, who's been out of the way for a while, since like, last fall, at least. It's all revealed in Daredevil #88.

NRAMA: But at the same time, Ben and Dakota are being given the runaround while they're looking for clues to who this "Daredevil" is, right?

EB: Yeah, they're getting the serious runaround, and they know it. This develops in issue #88, as well.

NRAMA: Back to the jailhouse - you added the Punisher to the mix…thumbnail version, why did Frank want in? And is time in Ryker's like a vacation for him?

EB: No, he came because of his respect for Matt, really. As we saw in issue #86, he thought Matt was becoming him, and he wanted to remind him what that was, I think. That, and it looked like a party he wanted to crash.


Keee-rist, I'm going to have to eat my words about the fake DD not being Hawkeye, aren't I? Gah, Brubaker's a sly one, though - who disappeared from the DD title some time last fall?

 

[The Overlord]

Dude....he's in prison and they killed his best friend. It's on like DOnkey Kong now!!!! Given the right circumstance....I think he'd kill a man.

The whole point of this story, is DD overcomes the savagery of prison to retain his status as a hero, DD should only kill if its the only only to stop innocent people from being salugthered. Plus DD still believes in the justice system, he wouldn't kill Bulls for that reason, the state should kill Bulls, not DD. DD has killed before, but only when there was no other option to prevent an innocent from being killed (Larks in MWoF, the pilot in Born again), but killing solely for revenge is out of character.

 

[MoS]

The whole point of this story, is DD overcomes the savagery of priuson to retain his status as a hero, DD should only kill if its the only only to stop innocent people from being salugthered. Plus DD still believes in the justice system, he wouldn't kill Bulls for that reason, the state should kill Bulls, not DD. DD has killed before, but only when there was no other option to prevent an innocent from being killed (Larks in MWoF, the pilot in Born again), but killing solely for revenge is out of character.

As much as I complained about Captain America being out-of-character in New Avengers, I think in this case that while it might be out-of-character for Matt to kill, Matt has been SET UP for many issues now as being out of control and increasingly violent. So even though this might be something he wouldn't have done before, at this point he's lost pretty much everything and no longer cares, and I think he might well do something that he would never have before considered.

 

[The Overlord]

As much as I complained about Captain America being out-of-character in New Avengers, I think in this case that while it might be out-of-character for Matt to kill, Matt has been SET UP for many issues now as being out of control and increasingly violent. So even though this might be something he wouldn't have done before, at this point he's lost pretty much everything and no longer cares, and I think he might well do something that he would never have before considered.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but that wouldn't give a sort of victory this "Alton Lennox" person who has been manipulating DD and clealrly trying to drive him made. By having Matt lose his ideals about justice and kill in cold blood, wouldn't have let his enemy control him and handed him a vicotory of sorts.

 

[thee great one]

:shock: :shock: :shock:

:shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

:shock: :shock: :shock:

:shock: :shock: :shock:

:twisted: The only thing I'm worried about is how future writer's interpret the relationship between DD and Punisher from here on out. Read Means and Ends. There's no love between these two prior to this. Hopefully they acknowledge what's happening here. It's a pretty big milestone between the two and I don't know how other heroes feel about Frank but possibly the first time anyone's showing this kind've respect for him.