Civil War series discussion (spoilers)

[slimjim]

I agree with Hibiki, what if you saw a muggging? Would you call the cops who will probably get there too late, would you try and stop him? What iof you were bulletproof would you hesitate? what if you continue doing that, stopping muggings, robberies, murders eventually you would make some enemies. You have a family, wife an kids mother father, brothers and sisters would you risk their lives having people know your the one getting them arrested, beaten up. And if became a govt employee do you think your identity is protected enough from the mob? And how long until the govt decide to send you too Iraq or to do internationally illegal acts (Like Nick Fury's Secret War) How hard would it be for them to make him do what ever they want?

Its easy for IronMan or Reed Richards to be for the registration, they are known to the public and they dont have any relatives or people close who would be in major trouble (that I know of). Iron man is an Avenger who was UN backed and now SHIELD backed, the enemies he made are usually people who are terrorist and who are an immediate threat on public life. Reed Richard is a sciencetist who explores and discovers and whose family all have super powers. Now for Spider-man or Daredevil they go up against the Kingpin of crime and really the lowest of the low, people who within the sec they find their identites have threaten their family and freinds. Picture if you had sent Electro to jail many times, you have beaten the crap out of him over and over. A guy with that power hates your guts, what do you think happens when he finds out where you mother lives?

Yes people like the Punisher should be arrested, though they may be doing good they shouldnt be killing. But Daredevil patrols streets where cops either dont care or are bribed. And person should not be hunted down, shot at, and be in the middle of an explosion of an entire office floor simply for stopping a mugging while having a mask.

good post



So you guys think thor is coming back, and if so to which side?

 

[Random]

good post



So you guys think thor is coming back, and if so to which side?

I'll he'll just show uo and go "What the ****?"

Hill: "Whats your secret Identity?"

Thor: "Screw thou wench"

Hill: "Tell me who you are"

Thor: "Im a ****ing god *****!"

 

[ProjectX2]

I think he'll return at the end of Civil War, perhaps to stop the fighting.

 

[slimjim]

I hope Sentry goes with iron man and then thor goes with cap.

I WANT WAR!

I think he'll return at the end of Civil War, perhaps to stop the fighting.

Nah Hulk is definately going to do that.
"Banner will come back from whence you send him and he will kill you all! And he'll be right!"

 

[Hibiki]

No, the only reason he would come back is to get his hammer. That's it. He is the new Odin. Odin's dead, so who will keep the other gods in check? Thor. I think he'll play more of a Watcher type role. Also I really don't think we've seen the last of the Watcher.


I think Sentry is already with Iron Man, isn't he?

 

[MaxwellSmart]

I hope Sentry goes with iron man and then thor goes with cap.

I don't think even Thor could take Sentry, unless they give him a power boost.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

I don't think even Thor could take Sentry, unless they give him a power boost.

You think Sentry could kill a God? I don't think he could take Thor. Plus Sentry always has to limit himself in order to keep the Void in check.



Crap.....


I just posted in a "who could beat who" topic. I swore to myself that I would never do that.

 

[Hibiki]

I dunno, that guy with the crowbar took him out way back when.

 

[Random]

No, the only reason he would come back is to get his hammer. That's it. He is the new Odin. Odin's dead, so who will keep the other gods in check? Thor. I think he'll play more of a Watcher type role. Also I really don't think we've seen the last of the Watcher.


I think Sentry is already with Iron Man, isn't he?

Actually I think all of Asagard is dead, not sure

 

[Hibiki]

Actually I think all of Asagard is dead, not sure

Well isn't that peachy.I think someone hasn't been doing their job.

 

[Random]

Well isn't that peachy.I think someone hasn't been doing their job.

Actually he was trying to end a cycle of death and rebirth... think Matrix trilogy

 

[freedome]

I agree with Hibiki, what if you saw a muggging? Would you call the cops who will probably get there too late, would you try and stop him? What iof you were bulletproof would you hesitate? what if you continue doing that, stopping muggings, robberies, murders eventually you would make some enemies. You have a family, wife an kids mother father, brothers and sisters would you risk their lives having people know your the one getting them arrested, beaten up. And if became a govt employee do you think your identity is protected enough from the mob? And how long until the govt decide to send you too Iraq or to do internationally illegal acts (Like Nick Fury's Secret War) How hard would it be for them to make him do what ever they want?

Its easy for IronMan or Reed Richards to be for the registration, they are known to the public and they dont have any relatives or people close who would be in major trouble (that I know of). Iron man is an Avenger who was UN backed and now SHIELD backed, the enemies he made are usually people who are terrorist and who are an immediate threat on public life. Reed Richard is a sciencetist who explores and discovers and whose family all have super powers. Now for Spider-man or Daredevil they go up against the Kingpin of crime and really the lowest of the low, people who within the sec they find their identites have threaten their family and freinds. Picture if you had sent Electro to jail many times, you have beaten the crap out of him over and over. A guy with that power hates your guts, what do you think happens when he finds out where you mother lives?

Yes people like the Punisher should be arrested, though they may be doing good they shouldnt be killing. But Daredevil patrols streets where cops either dont care or are bribed. And person should not be hunted down, shot at, and be in the middle of an explosion of an entire office floor simply for stopping a mugging while having a mask.

i think people's fears are a little unfounded. criminals get arrested all the time, they don't go to the cops house and threaten their mate, kidnap their kids, shot their dog, they stay the fc^k away from them! you know why because that cop and the other cops would beat the living $#!t out of him.

i've lived down the street from a police and people knew not to date his daughter let alone mess w/him. and he didn't even have powers!

the question is do you or don't you support vigilantism? are we a nation of laws or does mob justice permeate our society? i don't want someone who saw me running late @night kicking the c^@p out of me because they think i might have been up to some nefarious act w/out anyone able to hold them accountable too.

supes are not above the law and if they think they are we've got level 42 for em'

 

[Hibiki]

WWDD What Would Daredevil Do?

And even with Spiderman outing himself, you know they're just going to kill off MJ or Aunt May. They're gonna make pros and cons. Spidey's cause and effect has yet to be seen. I think there should be an exception to the rule. B/c once a baddie comes around that only a specific hero can kill, but isn't registered, what would happen if he intervenes? He's obviously going to be arrested for "illegally" using his powers. Besides, if Caps' involved there has to be a noble cause. Next thing you know, Non-mutant heroes are going to be the new mutants. People are afraid, so what do the "helpless" people do? Something similar to a Sentinal initiative. When it's all said and done, you're either dead or you have some mark like a barcode to keep track of your activities. You're basically a prisoner whether or not you use your powers. It's not just registration, it's a new wave of hate. No more muties, no more problem. Find something else to ***** about. So a villian blows up a school due to an idiot wanting tv ratings. The guys a villain, he was going to kill someone evetually. Maybe I'm ranting but that's my way of seeing it. You shouldn't make people do something against their will. Ultimatum: Register or hang up the tights. Not: Register or DIE. That should be worst case scenario. All the gov't is going to do is exploit good people just b/c they want the public monkey off their back.

If you don't like it, kiss my McGriddle.

 

[ShadowPrime]

Respectfully - and I mean that - I think you guys who are arguing "against registration" are thinking in "comic universe" terms, not real world terms ... and that is fine, except that my beef with CIVIL WAR is that it seems to be challenging us to "really" think about the issues, to take them seriously.. and if we do, I feel that this isn't even a tough question. I will try not to repeat my earlier post too much, but...

"Fantasy" vigilantes can be fun. I certainly enjoy them - pretty much any of us still reading comic books does. *S* They make for great escapist fare, they draw on a long tradition of heroes operating "outside the law", and in some ways, stories involving them satisfy a very basic and largely laudable appetite to "see justice done".

But when you start "thinking about it seriously", the fun becomes a lot more problematic.

In many ways, the Marvel Universe makes things too easy for the anti-registration crowd, even after showing us the Nitro-caused tragedy at the school, which kicked off the series. The reason I say that is the Marvel Universe is populated with mostly admirable hero-types. In the Marvel universe - supervillains aside! - MOST of the people who don masks are "good" people. The Punisher stands out precisely because he ISN'T a "nice guy" (that is his "hook"). Same thing, in a different way, with Wolverine. So when Cap argues that heroes can police their own, etc, it seems reasonable. After all, MOST Marvel heroes are pretty well behaved. Mostly. But in "reality" - who would decide what is "reasonable"?

Dangling a "thug" (in your opinion) off a skyscraper, threatening to drop him, if he doesn't spill his guts? Looks pretty cool in a comic book. Until you imagine that "thug" being your Dad. Or son. And guess what? The hero has made a mistake - the guy being dangled is NOT a thug and doesn't know a thing. What are you going to do about it? Pick up the phone and call the Captain America hotline and ask him to look into it?

Or like I said in that earlier post... some dim bulb in a mask, who frankly takes a bit TOO much pleasure out of busting heads... kicks YOUR door in at two in the morning, and roughs YOU up a bit in front of your terrified family, because you work for XYZ Corp, which is (unbeknownst to you) owned by Villain X, about a zillion corporate levels up, and Captain Brutality thinks you know about some business transactions which are shady. He couldn't even SPELL "search warrant", has never even heard of probable cause, or due process. Sound cool? Fun?

Or a car full of young African American men gets stopped by Racist-Man and his superpowered buddies. Just because. Hmmmm.

Or just take the incident that kicked off CIVIL WAR, as presented, and really THINK about it. But take superheroes out of the picture, and imagine that cops were involved. Staged a clumsy attack in a residential neighborhood. Let a firefight spill out onto the streets, right by an elementary school. Pursued a heavily armed criminal, with heavy explosives, basically right into a schoolyard. And as a result, a bunch of kids ended up dead. Think heads wouldn't roll? Well, in the Marvel Universe, you can get into that kind of a situation, easily - it happens almost every issue of every comic! - with NO training, NO badge, NO accountability, NO legal boundaries ... YOU just decide what is right, what is wrong, based on YOUR personal code. You decide when to turn the streets into a free fire zone.

Imagine if this was the law... not only no "gun control", but anyone, at any time, could carry and use any weapon they saw fit, in any place, based on their own personal values. That is essentially the Marvel Universe. Forget metal detectors and worrying about box cutters and nail files... all sorts of people walking around, who don't NEED guns, because they can put their fists through steel, read your mind or mind control you, point at you and set you on fire, or freeze you solid, or make your blood boil, or any of a million other nasty things, and the only real restriction on them is ...their conscience.

Sound like a good way to live?

Don't mean to make this unduly "heavy". Just saying -- the CIVIL WAR series is, to me, based on a really strange premise. By putting laudable characters on the anti-registration side (and yes, there are laudable characters on the pro-registration side, for sure), they seem to want to suggest that there is a good case to be made for throwing out the rule of law and embracing vigilantes. Really?

Shadow

PS - Take the incident in CIVIL WAR #2... the book opens with the Vulture and the Grim Reaper beaten up and chained. Bloody noses, teeth missing, etc. We are to assume those happened in a fair fight and not AFTER they were chained - probably. Now what? Going to "arrest" these guys? On whose say so? On what evidence? Are they going to trial? Who is going to tesitfy? Do "heroes" just go around beating people up and leaving them for the authorities to find? And what are those authorities supposed to do THEN?

PPS - Lets see if the CIVIL WAR authors take another logical step. I would guess that almost EVERY supervillain would OPPOSE registration. Wonder if they will show that, and get into it... if only from a public relations stand point, if nothing else... when "Cap's side" has to deal with endorsements from the supervillain crowd. *S* Heck, how is Cap, springing prisoners, assaulting SHIELD agents, and endangering cops, any different from Magneto? A different agenda, sure, but...

 

[David Blue]

Respectfully - and I mean that - I think you guys who are arguing "against registration" are thinking in "comic universe" terms, not real world terms ... and that is fine, except that my beef with CIVIL WAR is that it seems to be challenging us to "really" think about the issues, to take them seriously.. and if we do, I feel that this isn't even a tough question. I will try not to repeat my earlier post too much, but...

Respectfully, I plead guilty: my thinking on the appropriateness of registration to a comic book superhero universe follows from thinking in "comic universe" terms. That seems all right to me.

In the Marvel universe - supervillains aside! - MOST of the people who don masks are "good" people. The Punisher stands out precisely because he ISN'T a "nice guy" (that is his "hook").

The Punisher doesn't wear a mask. He is the perfect example of someone who doesn't have a registration problem. His identity is known, he has no super powers, he has a prison record, and what's different about being hunted for him?

A hero who is cold-blooded enough to stand aside and just let innocents be killed in large numbers till people figure out what is wrong with registration may also be able to avoid problems.

A hero who can't do that may have problems. A hero with secrets that neither the government nor anyone else can be allowed to look at, with duties that can't be laid down or interfered with on pain of terrible consequences, and with a need to investigate seemingly mundane problems that may have big implications has a problem.

Despite his not wearing a mask for most of his career, Doctor Strange is my example. I think that for a local government to register, and by implication reserve the right to de-register, the Sorcerer Supreme for the 616 dimension is a questionable idea. I would raise a question mark about a government appointed supervisor giving Doctor Strange his compulsory training in the use of his powers too.

So when Cap argues that heroes can police their own, etc, it seems reasonable. After all, MOST Marvel heroes are pretty well behaved. Mostly. But in "reality" - who would decide what is "reasonable"?

In most dimensions, the Sorcerer Supreme seems to decide what is reasonable - and pity help you if he decides against you. This Sorcerer Supreme has a different policy: live and let live. To me, that seems to be a great idea.

And respecting the Sorcerer Supreme's "live and let live" policy also seems like a great idea.

As opposed, for example, to try and make him knuckle under to the kind of bureacracy that has starred in endorsing teams such as Freedom Force and heroes such as the USAgent and in involvement with building killer robots such as Sentinels (from the government agency Project: Wideawake).

Imagine if this was the law... not only no "gun control", but anyone, at any time, could carry and use any weapon they saw fit, in any place, based on their own personal values. That is essentially the Marvel Universe. Forget metal detectors and worrying about box cutters and nail files... all sorts of people walking around, who don't NEED guns, because they can put their fists through steel, read your mind or mind control you, point at you and set you on fire, or freeze you solid, or make your blood boil, or any of a million other nasty things, and the only real restriction on them is ...their conscience.

Sound like a good way to live?

Doctor Strange could surely blow up the whole world if he wanted to. Is it better that a man with a conscience should have such power and use it as he sees fit, or that creatures such as Nightmare, the Dread Dormamu and Mephisto be unopposed, or that opposition to them be subject to the veto of men like Henry Peter Gyrich?

Yes, to rely on the consciences of trustworthy people, as they rely from time to time on each other and even on rare occasions on the support or ordinary people, is a good way to live.

 

[Hibiki]

Respectfully - and I mean that - I think you guys who are arguing "against registration" are thinking in "comic universe" terms, not real world terms ... and that is fine, except that my beef with CIVIL WAR is that it seems to be challenging us to "really" think about the issues, to take them seriously.. and if we do, I feel that this isn't even a tough question. I will try not to repeat my earlier post too much, but...

"Fantasy" vigilantes can be fun. I certainly enjoy them - pretty much any of us still reading comic books does. *S* They make for great escapist fare, they draw on a long tradition of heroes operating "outside the law", and in some ways, stories involving them satisfy a very basic and largely laudable appetite to "see justice done".

But when you start "thinking about it seriously", the fun becomes a lot more problematic.

In many ways, the Marvel Universe makes things too easy for the anti-registration crowd, even after showing us the Nitro-caused tragedy at the school, which kicked off the series. The reason I say that is the Marvel Universe is populated with mostly admirable hero-types. In the Marvel universe - supervillains aside! - MOST of the people who don masks are "good" people. The Punisher stands out precisely because he ISN'T a "nice guy" (that is his "hook"). Same thing, in a different way, with Wolverine. So when Cap argues that heroes can police their own, etc, it seems reasonable. After all, MOST Marvel heroes are pretty well behaved. Mostly. But in "reality" - who would decide what is "reasonable"?

Dangling a "thug" (in your opinion) off a skyscraper, threatening to drop him, if he doesn't spill his guts? Looks pretty cool in a comic book. Until you imagine that "thug" being your Dad. Or son. And guess what? The hero has made a mistake - the guy being dangled is NOT a thug and doesn't know a thing. What are you going to do about it? Pick up the phone and call the Captain America hotline and ask him to look into it?

Or like I said in that earlier post... some dim bulb in a mask, who frankly takes a bit TOO much pleasure out of busting heads... kicks YOUR door in at two in the morning, and roughs YOU up a bit in front of your terrified family, because you work for XYZ Corp, which is (unbeknownst to you) owned by Villain X, about a zillion corporate levels up, and Captain Brutality thinks you know about some business transactions which are shady. He couldn't even SPELL "search warrant", has never even heard of probable cause, or due process. Sound cool? Fun?

Or a car full of young African American men gets stopped by Racist-Man and his superpowered buddies. Just because. Hmmmm.

Or just take the incident that kicked off CIVIL WAR, as presented, and really THINK about it. But take superheroes out of the picture, and imagine that cops were involved. Staged a clumsy attack in a residential neighborhood. Let a firefight spill out onto the streets, right by an elementary school. Pursued a heavily armed criminal, with heavy explosives, basically right into a schoolyard. And as a result, a bunch of kids ended up dead. Think heads wouldn't roll? Well, in the Marvel Universe, you can get into that kind of a situation, easily - it happens almost every issue of every comic! - with NO training, NO badge, NO accountability, NO legal boundaries ... YOU just decide what is right, what is wrong, based on YOUR personal code. You decide when to turn the streets into a free fire zone.

Imagine if this was the law... not only no "gun control", but anyone, at any time, could carry and use any weapon they saw fit, in any place, based on their own personal values. That is essentially the Marvel Universe. Forget metal detectors and worrying about box cutters and nail files... all sorts of people walking around, who don't NEED guns, because they can put their fists through steel, read your mind or mind control you, point at you and set you on fire, or freeze you solid, or make your blood boil, or any of a million other nasty things, and the only real restriction on them is ...their conscience.

Sound like a good way to live?

Don't mean to make this unduly "heavy". Just saying -- the CIVIL WAR series is, to me, based on a really strange premise. By putting laudable characters on the anti-registration side (and yes, there are laudable characters on the pro-registration side, for sure), they seem to want to suggest that there is a good case to be made for throwing out the rule of law and embracing vigilantes. Really?

Shadow

PS - Take the incident in CIVIL WAR #2... the book opens with the Vulture and the Grim Reaper beaten up and chained. Bloody noses, teeth missing, etc. We are to assume those happened in a fair fight and not AFTER they were chained - probably. Now what? Going to "arrest" these guys? On whose say so? On what evidence? Are they going to trial? Who is going to tesitfy? Do "heroes" just go around beating people up and leaving them for the authorities to find? And what are those authorities supposed to do THEN?

PPS - Lets see if the CIVIL WAR authors take another logical step. I would guess that almost EVERY supervillain would OPPOSE registration. Wonder if they will show that, and get into it... if only from a public relations stand point, if nothing else... when "Cap's side" has to deal with endorsements from the supervillain crowd. *S* Heck, how is Cap, springing prisoners, assaulting SHIELD agents, and endangering cops, any different from Magneto? A different agenda, sure, but...

The VUlture and Reaper are wanted villains, and they're wearing theeir freaking costumes. How do you not arrest and already wanted criminal. And Racist Man and his buddies already sound like villains, not heroes. Same goes for Captain Brutality. You make no swaying arguments. As for Cap springing prisoners, who's the prisoner? SHIELD is corrupt without Fury if you ask me. They were willing to take out Cap just b/c he had an opinion. Tell me what's so reasonable about shooting a man who says no to hunting down his friends. If you were Cap and Hill said hunt down your pals b/c they won't submit. You say no, what do you think should happen. As for endangering cops, that's a no-brainer. Cops are cops to protect people. They are always in the line of danger so that's not even a valid argument. And as far as them relying on their conscience, what if DD is no longer allowed to protect hell's kitchen? What if Luke Cage has to be a registered hero just so he can keep his neighborhood watch? What hero does the wrong thing b/c he thinks it's right? And as far as heroes getting paid just to be registered, that's just an excuse for Hill to send them on missions in other countries. They can't say no b/c now they're official SHIELD employees. They are "vigilantes" b/c they want to help people, there is no paycheck involved. Sure the Avengers were funded, but how long did it take for someone to realize that they were doing something good and figured maybe they should be rewarded. It's wrong to make people choose between being a tool and hanging up their mask.

gimme a CW banner with Cap on it.

 

[ShadowPrime]

D Blue:

Dr Strange is so surreal that he may be a special case - to deal with him, we have to imagine how the law could be made to apply to magical entities. And, I guess, Norse Gods. And demonic agents. And "conscious" robots. No easy task.

But by and large, I don't see why we would say we have rules for cops, rules for soldiers, rules for average citizens... but once you put on a mask, anything goes, all rules and laws fly out the window, and your only guide is your own conscience. You kick down your neighbor's door, but your boot on his throat and a shotgun in his face and demand he tell you all about X, and you are in BIG trouble, even if YOU think your motives are good. You put on a mask, kick down his door, put your boot on his throat, threaten to microwave his brain with your superpower/mutant ability/battle armor and demand he tells you all about X, and....? We are all supposed to applaud?

And I am not sure how that makes supervillains different than superheroes, except that their conscience choices are... unpopular (to most of us). I am sure Magneto, Dr Doom, Dr Octopus, Kraven and company all think that their aims are perfectly reasonable and justifiable. See Darth Vader for a good example of how the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Sorta good intentions. Kinda.

My real "complaint" here is not that the questions raised by CIVIL WAR aren't interesting and thought-provoking -- they ARE! It is just that I don't think the right place to raise them is within the "Marvel Universe". Think they could be very well explored in a limited series, or a separate universe (to some extent, the Squadron Supreme series IS dealing with these issues!). But once you raise them in the Marvel Universe...the "standard" Marvel Universe... how do you go back? Without some kind of cheap, sell out dodge? Captain America trashing SHIELD agents and causing high speed police crashes (take a look at those police cars flying through the air at high speed...and imagine how THAT ended up for the average "real cops" inside)? Mainstream Marvel heroes arguing that they have the right to be outside the law, to be vigilantes, to ignore elected goverment simply because they have the MIGHT to? And then we just go back to business as usual?

I can't see that - and I think it is an unnecessary opening of some cans of worms that make the Marvel Universe a much less fun place.

Ah, but what do I know. Probably taking it all much too seriously. *S*

Shadow

 

[ShadowPrime]

Hibiki:

Sorry, but you prove my point FOR me.

Racist Man and Captain Brutality sound like villains to you? Okay. To YOU. Who gets to decide? That is precisely the point. What Cap is arguing is that once you put on a mask, you are outside the law, and answerable to no one. Well, maybe to HIM. Hmmm... So who gets to decide the limits of conduct for "heroes"? What is the code of conduct for the Punisher? For Wolverine? What if the NEXT guy in a mask doesn't share Cap's views on where the line should be drawn? On race relations? On the rights of criminals? Of the simply ACCUSED? If Captain Brutality decides that breaking a few bones to get info is justifiable, who does he answer to?

And your comments re the police are....startling...to me. Let me see if I have this right. Cap disagrees with a government policy. So Cap pitches a SHIELD agent out of a racing vehicle ... during what is essentially a jail break... right into the path of some oncoming, pursuing police cars... causing what appears to be a high speed multi car crash, with police cars sailing through the air at 60 MPH... and that is OKAY because cops are "always in the line of danger"?

Yikes.

Shadow

 

[Ice]

MM on #3's initial numbers:

...but the initial orders for issue three are bigger than the colossal FINAL numbers on issues one and two. And those numbers were big. Obviously, there's special editions coming out on the first two issues that should push us over 350K and towards 400K, but issue three's numbers are insane. I thought we'd do the usual ten to twenty per cent drop, but we've gone up by a HUGE number after issue two. This started big, got bigger and has become Godzilla. It's ****ing INSANITY, but veru exciting.

Ta for the cash, suckers

MM

 

[E]

I realize it's probably just me, but I just don't get it. It's not that good. It's just hype.

Actually maybe I do get it.