Civil War series discussion (spoilers)

[slimjim]

You always supply your ***** with clothes on their back and a roof over their head.


I'm with cap and cable :twisted:

 

[Hibiki]

Cable, but where is Deadpool? You'd think he'd be there...and who is that lady with the missing crucifix on her slutty outfit?

 

[Ice]

Cable, but where is Deadpool? You'd think he'd be there...and who is that lady with the missing crucifix on her slutty outfit?

Deadpool is elsewhere as you'll soon see in 'Cable/Deadpool' if you read that arc.

 

[Hibiki]

I don't. It doesn't sound that great and as much as my bf likes Deadpool's "cockiness", I can't seem to get into it.

 

[ProjectX2]

I don't. It doesn't sound that great and as much as my bf likes Deadpool's "cockiness", I can't seem to get into it.

Deadpool is supposedly going to be one of the "hero hunters". And I believe the woman you're talking about is Dagger.

 

[MaxwellSmart]

I think Deadpool isn't going to really be a traitor, but rather help Cable as a spy.

 

[David Blue]

Now, who predicted that they were going to get divorced??

Was it... Me?

Because I think it WAS.

OK, I'll give you credit. But I won't give Marvel credit.

This sort of thing is why I buy only Ultimate Fantastic Four, through I buy every Ultimate Fantastic Four trade that comes out. (In other words, though I'm a total sucker for the concept, if the comics deliver it.)

This sort of thing is why I washed my hands of the 616 Fantastic Four many years ago.

There is nothing original or good about screwing up the Richards' marriage.

Whether the Richards divorce or not this time, the obvious fact that their relationship is bad, rightly un-trusting, non-communicative and basically divorce court fodder is not a bold, exciting new idea.

There is nothing original or good about screwing up and throwing away the basic lineup of Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben. I'm at a loss for words on how "been there, done that" that is.

Fundamental family instability and/or breakdown and the chronic weakness and personal lacks that underpin it is not Fantastic. It is mundane.

For all its flaws, I think the movie Fantastic Four (2005) was worth more than decades of 616 "Fantastic Four" comics of the sort I picked up on the stand today (because I was surprised my local newsagent had started stocking such comics), glanced through and put down in disgust.

In the movie, love and marriage won. So they should.

In the comic, you had two people who weren't up to having a conversation - not because they were inept in expressing their love but because the fundamentals of good faith and goodwill were absent or insufficient.

Should I spend one cent on that sort of thing when I can spend it on Ultimate Fantastic Four (and related trades) instead? Of course not!

There are ways that you pick on characters over and over again, and that's all right. But there are also ways that you don't.

Obviously I and the Marvel 616 writers will never agree on which category a fundamentally weak and sour marital relationship in the Fantastic Four is in, or which category final breakdown and eternal ex-married tedious nastiness would be in.

But as long as Ultimate Fantastic Four gives me
(a) The Fantastic - on the first trade paperback, a golden promise that the good stuff was back, and
(b) Family, established as a hot issue on the first page of the first trade paperback, and solid so far,
I'll buy it. Totally.

 

[David Blue]

The fruit is rotten on the bough.

The wind may blow strongly enough to knock it off, or it may not.

These people disgust me. They are not the real Fantastic Four.

The Ultimate Fantastic Four is the real Fantastic Four.

 

[Ice]

Ok one: This thread is not about FF's tie-ins in Civil War.

Two: That picture doesn't mean divorce!!! Why myus people assume that JUST because the picture is broken?!?!?

 

[ultimatedjf]

For all its flaws, I think the movie Fantastic Four (2005) was worth more than decades of 616 "Fantastic Four" comics of the sort I picked up on the stand today (because I was surprised my local newsagent had started stocking such comics), glanced through and put down in disgust.

Then your local newsagent mustn't get The Thing.

Oh, and Fantastic Four (2005) was a horrible film.

 

[David Blue]

Ok one: This thread is not about FF's tie-ins in Civil War.

Two: That picture doesn't mean divorce!!! Why myus people assume that JUST because the picture is broken?!?!?

Fair enough: no tie-ins.

The picture is a strong, attention-getting, emotion charged symbol. It seems to get people to react often in a certain way. (shrug) Arguing that would be off-topic though.

On registration itself: I'm not a supporter.

 

[Gadzookie]

the comic guy down at my store is a moron can anyone tell me if these are out already im trying to collect all the civil war comics

for june

Civil War Frontline 2
Amazing Spider Man 533
Fantastic Four 538
New Avengers 21
Wolverine 43
X-factor 8

are these out yet ?

i think i have every other issue that is out for civil war

 

[ultimatedjf]

the comic guy down at my store is a moron can anyone tell me if these are out already im trying to collect all the civil war comics

for june

Civil War Frontline 2
Amazing Spider Man 533
Fantastic Four 538
New Avengers 21
Wolverine 43
X-factor 8

are these out yet ?

i think i have every other issue that is out for civil war

CW:Fl #2 comes out on Wednesday
ASM #533 does too
So does FF #538
NA #21 was going to come out on the same day as the above comic titles, but I think it got delayed.
I don't know about Wolv. and X-F. But every Saturday, don't forget to check out the thread that Baxter usually creates that lists the upcoming week's comic releases; that's how I usually find out what I'm going to get every Wednesday.

 

[The Skoot]

the comic guy down at my store is a moron can anyone tell me if these are out already im trying to collect all the civil war comics

for june

Civil War Frontline 2
Amazing Spider Man 533
Fantastic Four 538
New Avengers 21
Wolverine 43
X-factor 8

are these out yet ?

i think i have every other issue that is out for civil war

Madly, all six are on Diamond's list of comics shipping next week (June 28th). You'd think they'd try to stagger the Civil War tie-ins a bit more, but that's obviously too easy for Marvel.

 

[ShadowPrime]

On one level, I am enjoying CIVIL WAR. But on another level..not so much.

I am sure this has been commented on elsewhere, but enjoying conventional, mainstream, Marvel/DC, continuing comic books requires more than a suspension of disbelief on the subject of superpowers. It requires one to avoid thinking, too deeply, about exactly how the law must function in either "universe", and about what it would really be like to live in a world where anyone who puts on a mask and cape can become a vigilante.

"Superheroes" regularly break and enter, obtain all kinds of evidence without warrant, coerce confessions and extort information through violence, use deadly force, cause massive amounts of collateral damage, violate all kinds of laws and civil rights, and do so behind a cloak of total anonymity (in many cases). They are judge, jury, and in some cases, executioner, beholden to no one but themselves. They are not bound by law or government.

Are the criminals they clash with ever tried? If so, how? Does the Constitution exist in the Marvel or DC universe? Miranda warnings? The right to avoid self-incrimination? A ban on unreasonable search and siezure? The right to face one's accuser in open court? Have any of these guys ever watched an episode of LAW & ORDER?

Once you start thinking about this stuff seriously, which the series invites you to do, how CAN you side with Cap? Sorry guys, but really - do you want some goon from down the street kicking your door in, in the middle of the night, and slamming you up against the wall in front of your screaming kids, because you happen to work for the wrong company and he thinks you MIGHT have some useful info? Just because he dons a mask and thinks you MIGHT be a baddie? Or do you want some untrained, unschooled, amateur cutting loose on the main street of your town or in the local mall with some destructive superpower, maybe ten times more dangerous than, say, a machine gun, because he decides he is Mr X, righter of wrongs?

This kind of stuff is only defensible in FANTASY! It is the same reason that while DEATH WISH might be darkly cathartic as a fantasy in which Charles Bronson never shoots an innocent bystander or gets the wrong man, we don't generally support every Tom, Dick and Harry running around hunting down and shooting criminals. The Wild West might be fun on DEADWOOD but most of us, if we give it a passing thought, aren't especially eager to LIVE there!

In the last issue, unless I missed something, Cap caused several police cars to crash when he threw that SHIELD agent out onto the highway. Gee, I guess those were EVIL cops, and of course, I am sure they all walked away from those crashes in perfectly good health. I guess that NASTY SHIELD agent was also just peachy after he bounced off the highway at 60 MPH, assuming all those cars missed him. And we all know that it is perfectly okay to violently oppose laws with which we disagree. Oh, really?.....

Sorry. This is coming off as a lot more heavy handed than I intended. And the series IS striving to be ...sorta... even handed here. But frankly, I think CIVIL WAR is a bit of a miscalculation. If you start taking it seriously, if you really THINK about the questions it seems to want you to take seriously, then I don't see it as being particularly fun, and I don't see how we are supposed to WANT it be even-handed. There is a reason, in the real world, that we give the police and the FBI and the military certain rights re the use of force. There is also a reason, in the real world, that we set limits on those rights, that we struggle over the proper boundaries - and that we insist on training, and LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY for those we invest with those rights and powers. CIVIL WAR breaks the fantasy bubble that makes superheroes fun. To whose benefit?

Shadow

 

[Gadzookie]

i can easily say that this series is wayyy better then 52 i just red 7 and i just dont know but im not enjoying the series :-(

civil war on the other hand is getting better and better and dont forget you know there is going to be a huge battle soon !

i wonder if there will be any permenant deaths besides some of the

Spoiler

new warriors

 

[iceman]

haha, nice spoiler. i didn't want to read it, and now you ruined the whole series for me!

i really hope they don't undo the masking. if they do it before 3 or 4 years, at least (because it prob. will be undone), it will be stupid. honestly, that's why i hate picking up ongoings of established characters. there is so little sense of history that the editors respect anymore... even the history they create themselves! now some ideas should be undone, but only super duper bogus ones that are universally thought as stupid (i.e. CLONES!).

but yeah, they're probably undue it.

 

[freedome]

On one level, I am enjoying CIVIL WAR. But on another level..not so much.

I am sure this has been commented on elsewhere, but enjoying conventional, mainstream, Marvel/DC, continuing comic books requires more than a suspension of disbelief on the subject of superpowers. It requires one to avoid thinking, too deeply, about exactly how the law must function in either "universe", and about what it would really be like to live in a world where anyone who puts on a mask and cape can become a vigilante.

"Superheroes" regularly break and enter, obtain all kinds of evidence without warrant, coerce confessions and extort information through violence, use deadly force, cause massive amounts of collateral damage, violate all kinds of laws and civil rights, and do so behind a cloak of total anonymity (in many cases). They are judge, jury, and in some cases, executioner, beholden to no one but themselves. They are not bound by law or government.

Are the criminals they clash with ever tried? If so, how? Does the Constitution exist in the Marvel or DC universe? Miranda warnings? The right to avoid self-incrimination? A ban on unreasonable search and siezure? The right to face one's accuser in open court? Have any of these guys ever watched an episode of LAW & ORDER?

Once you start thinking about this stuff seriously, which the series invites you to do, how CAN you side with Cap? Sorry guys, but really - do you want some goon from down the street kicking your door in, in the middle of the night, and slamming you up against the wall in front of your screaming kids, because you happen to work for the wrong company and he thinks you MIGHT have some useful info? Just because he dons a mask and thinks you MIGHT be a baddie? Or do you want some untrained, unschooled, amateur cutting loose on the main street of your town or in the local mall with some destructive superpower, maybe ten times more dangerous than, say, a machine gun, because he decides he is Mr X, righter of wrongs?

This kind of stuff is only defensible in FANTASY! It is the same reason that while DEATH WISH might be darkly cathartic as a fantasy in which Charles Bronson never shoots an innocent bystander or gets the wrong man, we don't generally support every Tom, Dick and Harry running around hunting down and shooting criminals. The Wild West might be fun on DEADWOOD but most of us, if we give it a passing thought, aren't especially eager to LIVE there!

In the last issue, unless I missed something, Cap caused several police cars to crash when he threw that SHIELD agent out onto the highway. Gee, I guess those were EVIL cops, and of course, I am sure they all walked away from those crashes in perfectly good health. I guess that NASTY SHIELD agent was also just peachy after he bounced off the highway at 60 MPH, assuming all those cars missed him. And we all know that it is perfectly okay to violently oppose laws with which we disagree. Oh, really?.....

Sorry. This is coming off as a lot more heavy handed than I intended. And the series IS striving to be ...sorta... even handed here. But frankly, I think CIVIL WAR is a bit of a miscalculation. If you start taking it seriously, if you really THINK about the questions it seems to want you to take seriously, then I don't see it as being particularly fun, and I don't see how we are supposed to WANT it be even-handed. There is a reason, in the real world, that we give the police and the FBI and the military certain rights re the use of force. There is also a reason, in the real world, that we set limits on those rights, that we struggle over the proper boundaries - and that we insist on training, and LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY for those we invest with those rights and powers. CIVIL WAR breaks the fantasy bubble that makes superheroes fun. To whose benefit?

Shadow

really gr8 post.

 

[Hibiki]

really gr8 post.

We'll see how great it is when Galactus comes back...I wouldn't fight him if I was forced to work for the gov't. Even then, what if you have powers but decide not to use them? Are you gonna get thrown in jail or just be torchered like colossus or the Tommy kid from YA? When Cap said no I won't help, why did Hill decide to attack him. Now we won't know if he'd help the rebels or not. He wasn't really given a choice. So yes I agree if you wanna be a heroe, maybe you should register yourself. Otherwise you should be left alone. I have a feeling once the bill passes, Cap and more will be arrested, brainwashed and put under SHIELD surveillance and put out as soldiers that enforce the rest of the world to take out Blackbolt, Namor and any other threat from the outside.

Cause and Effect.

 

[Random]

I agree with Hibiki, what if you saw a muggging? Would you call the cops who will probably get there too late, would you try and stop him? What iof you were bulletproof would you hesitate? what if you continue doing that, stopping muggings, robberies, murders eventually you would make some enemies. You have a family, wife an kids mother father, brothers and sisters would you risk their lives having people know your the one getting them arrested, beaten up. And if became a govt employee do you think your identity is protected enough from the mob? And how long until the govt decide to send you too Iraq or to do internationally illegal acts (Like Nick Fury's Secret War) How hard would it be for them to make him do what ever they want?

Its easy for IronMan or Reed Richards to be for the registration, they are known to the public and they dont have any relatives or people close who would be in major trouble (that I know of). Iron man is an Avenger who was UN backed and now SHIELD backed, the enemies he made are usually people who are terrorist and who are an immediate threat on public life. Reed Richard is a sciencetist who explores and discovers and whose family all have super powers. Now for Spider-man or Daredevil they go up against the Kingpin of crime and really the lowest of the low, people who within the sec they find their identites have threaten their family and freinds. Picture if you had sent Electro to jail many times, you have beaten the crap out of him over and over. A guy with that power hates your guts, what do you think happens when he finds out where you mother lives?

Yes people like the Punisher should be arrested, though they may be doing good they shouldnt be killing. But Daredevil patrols streets where cops either dont care or are bribed. And person should not be hunted down, shot at, and be in the middle of an explosion of an entire office floor simply for stopping a mugging while having a mask.