Ultimates 3 #1-5 discussion [Loeb/Madureira] [spoilers]
- Thread starter the watcher
- Start date
Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
By the way, I haven't read this yet, but it seems like it ended up just as bad as everyone suspected it would when it was first announced over two years ago.
By the way, I haven't read this yet, but it seems like it ended up just as bad as everyone suspected it would when it was first announced over two years ago.
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
Which makes me sad. The work I read by Loeb from Hulk: Gray gave me a little hope that he would have this as good as that or close to. I mentioned before I don't think I had read anything else, so I know I didn't have much to judge from, but to me it was something.
Which makes me sad. The work I read by Loeb from Hulk: Gray gave me a little hope that he would have this as good as that or close to. I mentioned before I don't think I had read anything else, so I know I didn't have much to judge from, but to me it was something.
Lynx
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
Loeb's done some good writing in his time. It's just that most of it was years and years ago.
Loeb's done some good writing in his time. It's just that most of it was years and years ago.
Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
And almost exclusively with Tim Sale or Ed McGuiness on art.
And almost exclusively with Tim Sale or Ed McGuiness on art.
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
That don't mean he can't write good work now. Bendis did great writing years and years ago, and still does now.
Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
Dancanread
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 30, 2006
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Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
i found it only kinda bad. Ultimate Power is worse.
i found it only kinda bad. Ultimate Power is worse.
Lynx
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
Pretty much.
His bad work far outweighs the good work he's doing now.
Pretty much.
His bad work far outweighs the good work he's doing now.
thee great one
Master of TOG-fu.
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
Isn't he doing Ultimates 4 with McGuiness?
Isn't he doing Ultimates 4 with McGuiness?
Lynx
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
I think so, with Absorbing Man as the villain.
I think so, with Absorbing Man as the villain.
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
Alright, but that wasn't the point. The point is that he's capable of doing good work.
Bass
Nexus of the World
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
I would love to see Cap doing this more often.
How many Kahns would you give it?
That is so damned appropriate. Prize for you.
If that's true, that the doc is Don Blake, that's pretty cool! I like that! Whether or not he is Thor's secret identity... I dunno. It doesn't make sense for Ultimate Thor to have one. But hell, it could just be a 'mystery'.
Which, apparently, is synonymous now with 'inconsistency'.
I would love to see Cap doing this more often.
How many Kahns would you give it?
That is so damned appropriate. Prize for you.
If that's true, that the doc is Don Blake, that's pretty cool! I like that! Whether or not he is Thor's secret identity... I dunno. It doesn't make sense for Ultimate Thor to have one. But hell, it could just be a 'mystery'.
Which, apparently, is synonymous now with 'inconsistency'.
McCheese
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
This was awful. I read it last Wednesday and I decided not to comment at that point because I figured that it couldn't possibly be as bad as my first reaction was. I blamed it on reading much better stuff before and after it and said the comparison wasn't fair. Last Wednesday I read Avengers: The Initiative Annual #1, Uncanny X-Men #493, New X-Men Vol 4: Riot at Xaviers, and Ex Machina Vol 1: The First Hundred Days. So it would be understandable to fall below those standards. So I waited a few days and read it again. It still sucks. I have a complaint about every single character in this issue. Every one of them. It's simply astounding. Let's start with my biggest complaint...
Hawkeye - What the hell? He is so immensely out of character that I could barely believe my eyes. Ultimates 2 #12 Wasp and Captain America enter a room prepared for a fight only to find Hawkeye standing in a room full of enemy corpses. He says, "Relax. Room's secure." Wasp runs up to hug him and says, "We all thought you were dead..." His response is simply "No such luck, honey." Seven words and room full of dead guys is all Millar needed to give the reader a real look at what a professional does when his family has been killed. He doesn't put a Bullseye on his head, he doesn't point a gun at Jan for no reason, and he doesn't start cracking wise on and off the battlefield. He acts like a professional killer and he does his job. Loeb should really go back and read the first 2 volumes of this series to see what a good character Hawkeye used to be. It's a shame that I must now use past tense in that sentence.
Wasp - Is it just bad art or is she no longer Asian? I honestly don't know at this point. Who voted her for leader and why? She's a scientist whose biggest role in any fight thus far was using Hank's serum to grow big in the last big battle. By doing so she actually served a purpose for the length of one fight, but let's take a look at the rest of her track record shall we? She flashed her cans at the Hulk, she got hospitalized by Hank, she was captured and bottled by an alien Nazi, and she was swallowed by Thor. That doesn't exactly scream leadership material to me. Especially with established veterans on the team such as Cap and Hawkeye. And I mean the real Hawkeye, not Loeb's Hawkeye.
Thor - His Olde Timey speak is annoying and stupid, but I can live with it if there is a good reason that he goes from being able to speak normally to adding 'st at the end of words. The problem is that there is no reason that would make any sort of sense or be in the least bit interesting. Also he has 616 hammer. Fail again Loeb.
Valkarie - Why? I can think of no better way to sum up my hatred of her addition to the team then the word why. Did we need a ditsy blonde teenager on this team? Is that the character dynamic we've been missing? Or is this just a chance Loeb gave MAD to draw an abundance of TNA? Because I have a strong belief it's the latter. I'm not even going to get into how she suddenly has powers and is dating Thor or how I liked her a lot better when she was some wannabe who tried to make Hank wear a Captain America costume to bed.
Captain America - He is barely in this issue and is therefore screwed up the least by Loeb. He actually seems somewhat in character. I'm sure Loeb will remedy that next issue. Probably by revealing that Cap is actually the Black Panther. Which brings me to...
Black Panther - Silent, possibly so no one would recognize his voice. Exactly the same build as Cap. Displaying superhuman strength similar to Cap. Recommended for the team by Cap. Didn't come back after Venom chucked him, instead Cap returns to the mansion in his place. I swear to god if they turn Black Panther into All-American, blonde haired, blue eyed super-cracker, Steve Rogers I will flip my damn lid.
Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver - Wondertwin Powers Activate! Form of Incest! Shape of poorly written dialogue! Quicksilver looks at Steve like he's going to kill him for touching his sister's arm? Come on! When your writing makes Mark Millar's writing look subtle in comparison you may consider taking a few night classes at the local Junior College to get a better grasp of the craft. Also, since this is where I'm talking about the incest I'll throw in my complaint about the look Jan gave when she was talking about their "love" here. Really? She's not grossed out? She just sees people in love and gets flustered talking about it with Steve because he's her dreamboat? Incest! Bad! WTF!?! I'm glad they killed Scarlet Witch now before we got to see Loeb deliver any brother-sister makeout scenes.
Giant/Ant-man - We'll never know which name he was going to go with now will we? I guess that we're supposed to feel bad for Hank having died like this, but as I was reading all I could think was "Thank God he died before Loeb gave him a single piece of idiotic, juvinile dialogue. Considering how poorly he's handled depression and incest I'd hate to see how he'd handle the subject of spousal abuse." You were the lucky one Hank. You escaped the ship before it sank.
Iron Man - Three lines in this issue and none of them particularly interesting. Can't wait to see how poorly he's written with a larger role. Loeb might just screw up this character to a level that not even Card could imagine.
Venom - No. Just no. Shouldn't be here, shouldn't be searching for anyone, and shouldn't turn into an Eddie Brock-less goo after he gets shocked. No!
Okay. So we've established that Jeph Loeb cannot and should not write these characters, but we also learned in this issue that Joe MAD (he uses caps, so will I) cannot and should not draw these characters. Or any other comic for that matter. He clearly can't handle sequential art. He is an awesome cover artist. He really is. But the interiors of this issue are terrible, ugly, and often times confusing. Wasp is Asian and Thor's hammer is not a chunk of concrete attached to a stick. I don't know which takes the bigger step down from the last creative team, the writing or the art. It's exactly these types of questions that lead me to believe this is the worst single issue of any Ultimate comic that I have ever read. Worse than Ultimate Deadpool, worse than Ultimate Clone Saga, and even worse than Wolverine and Spider-Man switching bodies. Worse than I could have possibly imagined. Everything was wrong. Everything. Often times when I give reviews I'll give them a negative score in an attempt at humor. There is no humor in the score I'm giving this issue.
0/5 Tafts.
This was awful. I read it last Wednesday and I decided not to comment at that point because I figured that it couldn't possibly be as bad as my first reaction was. I blamed it on reading much better stuff before and after it and said the comparison wasn't fair. Last Wednesday I read Avengers: The Initiative Annual #1, Uncanny X-Men #493, New X-Men Vol 4: Riot at Xaviers, and Ex Machina Vol 1: The First Hundred Days. So it would be understandable to fall below those standards. So I waited a few days and read it again. It still sucks. I have a complaint about every single character in this issue. Every one of them. It's simply astounding. Let's start with my biggest complaint...
Hawkeye - What the hell? He is so immensely out of character that I could barely believe my eyes. Ultimates 2 #12 Wasp and Captain America enter a room prepared for a fight only to find Hawkeye standing in a room full of enemy corpses. He says, "Relax. Room's secure." Wasp runs up to hug him and says, "We all thought you were dead..." His response is simply "No such luck, honey." Seven words and room full of dead guys is all Millar needed to give the reader a real look at what a professional does when his family has been killed. He doesn't put a Bullseye on his head, he doesn't point a gun at Jan for no reason, and he doesn't start cracking wise on and off the battlefield. He acts like a professional killer and he does his job. Loeb should really go back and read the first 2 volumes of this series to see what a good character Hawkeye used to be. It's a shame that I must now use past tense in that sentence.
Wasp - Is it just bad art or is she no longer Asian? I honestly don't know at this point. Who voted her for leader and why? She's a scientist whose biggest role in any fight thus far was using Hank's serum to grow big in the last big battle. By doing so she actually served a purpose for the length of one fight, but let's take a look at the rest of her track record shall we? She flashed her cans at the Hulk, she got hospitalized by Hank, she was captured and bottled by an alien Nazi, and she was swallowed by Thor. That doesn't exactly scream leadership material to me. Especially with established veterans on the team such as Cap and Hawkeye. And I mean the real Hawkeye, not Loeb's Hawkeye.
Thor - His Olde Timey speak is annoying and stupid, but I can live with it if there is a good reason that he goes from being able to speak normally to adding 'st at the end of words. The problem is that there is no reason that would make any sort of sense or be in the least bit interesting. Also he has 616 hammer. Fail again Loeb.
Valkarie - Why? I can think of no better way to sum up my hatred of her addition to the team then the word why. Did we need a ditsy blonde teenager on this team? Is that the character dynamic we've been missing? Or is this just a chance Loeb gave MAD to draw an abundance of TNA? Because I have a strong belief it's the latter. I'm not even going to get into how she suddenly has powers and is dating Thor or how I liked her a lot better when she was some wannabe who tried to make Hank wear a Captain America costume to bed.
Captain America - He is barely in this issue and is therefore screwed up the least by Loeb. He actually seems somewhat in character. I'm sure Loeb will remedy that next issue. Probably by revealing that Cap is actually the Black Panther. Which brings me to...
Black Panther - Silent, possibly so no one would recognize his voice. Exactly the same build as Cap. Displaying superhuman strength similar to Cap. Recommended for the team by Cap. Didn't come back after Venom chucked him, instead Cap returns to the mansion in his place. I swear to god if they turn Black Panther into All-American, blonde haired, blue eyed super-cracker, Steve Rogers I will flip my damn lid.
Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver - Wondertwin Powers Activate! Form of Incest! Shape of poorly written dialogue! Quicksilver looks at Steve like he's going to kill him for touching his sister's arm? Come on! When your writing makes Mark Millar's writing look subtle in comparison you may consider taking a few night classes at the local Junior College to get a better grasp of the craft. Also, since this is where I'm talking about the incest I'll throw in my complaint about the look Jan gave when she was talking about their "love" here. Really? She's not grossed out? She just sees people in love and gets flustered talking about it with Steve because he's her dreamboat? Incest! Bad! WTF!?! I'm glad they killed Scarlet Witch now before we got to see Loeb deliver any brother-sister makeout scenes.
Giant/Ant-man - We'll never know which name he was going to go with now will we? I guess that we're supposed to feel bad for Hank having died like this, but as I was reading all I could think was "Thank God he died before Loeb gave him a single piece of idiotic, juvinile dialogue. Considering how poorly he's handled depression and incest I'd hate to see how he'd handle the subject of spousal abuse." You were the lucky one Hank. You escaped the ship before it sank.
Iron Man - Three lines in this issue and none of them particularly interesting. Can't wait to see how poorly he's written with a larger role. Loeb might just screw up this character to a level that not even Card could imagine.
Venom - No. Just no. Shouldn't be here, shouldn't be searching for anyone, and shouldn't turn into an Eddie Brock-less goo after he gets shocked. No!
Okay. So we've established that Jeph Loeb cannot and should not write these characters, but we also learned in this issue that Joe MAD (he uses caps, so will I) cannot and should not draw these characters. Or any other comic for that matter. He clearly can't handle sequential art. He is an awesome cover artist. He really is. But the interiors of this issue are terrible, ugly, and often times confusing. Wasp is Asian and Thor's hammer is not a chunk of concrete attached to a stick. I don't know which takes the bigger step down from the last creative team, the writing or the art. It's exactly these types of questions that lead me to believe this is the worst single issue of any Ultimate comic that I have ever read. Worse than Ultimate Deadpool, worse than Ultimate Clone Saga, and even worse than Wolverine and Spider-Man switching bodies. Worse than I could have possibly imagined. Everything was wrong. Everything. Often times when I give reviews I'll give them a negative score in an attempt at humor. There is no humor in the score I'm giving this issue.
0/5 Tafts.
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Bass
Nexus of the World
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
This, right here, is a problem. I didn't even notice. Because the definition between "Ultimate" and 616 is getting less and less every month.
I agree with everything you said but this.
Tafts is the scale when things are good. But when things are crappy, you use the Kahns scale. The amount of times you yell, "KAAAAAHN!" is the number of Kahns it gets.
Tafts = good.
Kahns = rage.
This, right here, is a problem. I didn't even notice. Because the definition between "Ultimate" and 616 is getting less and less every month.
I agree with everything you said but this.
Tafts is the scale when things are good. But when things are crappy, you use the Kahns scale. The amount of times you yell, "KAAAAAHN!" is the number of Kahns it gets.
Tafts = good.
Kahns = rage.
McCheese
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
Or 5/5 Kahns.
Whichever means it was just shy of being a crime against humanity.
I've already stopped reading the rest of the Ultimate Universe, but I had planned to continue reading the Ultimates. Now I am washing my hands of this mess.
Well then I change the score to 0/5 Kahns...I agree with everything you said but this.
Tafts is the scale when things are good. But when things are crappy, you use the Kahns scale. The amount of times you yell, "KAAAAAHN!" is the number of Kahns it gets.
Tafts = good.
Kahns = rage.
Or 5/5 Kahns.
Whichever means it was just shy of being a crime against humanity.
Lynx
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
You know, it's a shame that USM and UXM have been getting on track again, and then we have this, Ultimate Iron Man II, and Ultimate Power. Does Marvel feel that the Ultimate Universe needs to be balanced between good and suck? What the ****.
You know, it's a shame that USM and UXM have been getting on track again, and then we have this, Ultimate Iron Man II, and Ultimate Power. Does Marvel feel that the Ultimate Universe needs to be balanced between good and suck? What the ****.
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Bass
Nexus of the World
Hibiki
Really is pretentious, no matter what she says. Do
Re: Ultimates 3 #1 spoiler/discussion
I washed my hands of the whole situation long ago.
I washed my hands of the whole situation long ago.
