Ultimates 2 #8 Discussion (SPOILERS)

[Guijllons]

Cool, that makes sense then.

 

[DIrishB]

Captain America's body didn't really land in the North Atlantic and get frozen for sixty years. His body was recovered by a splinter group of Nazi leaders, both skrull and human, called Hydra who foresaw the impending downfall of Germany. After regenerating his damaged body they put him into stasis for use in later operations. For the next fifty-five years HYDRA acted in shadow. Never allowing their presence to be known to any world government and never revealing the true identity of their leaders to anyone. All the while, they remained totally independent from the Skrull Empire. As the years went on they followed Skrull operations on earth and when they discovered that the skrull empire was attempting, once again, to seize control of earth. Deciding that they must move toward the destruction of the Skrull empire on earth, they put Captain America back into play. Using Captain America and other operatives, they helped position the US government so that they were prepared to combat the impending attack by the Skrull Empire. After the skrull invasion was successfully averted HYDRA felt that they were now in a position to seize control of the US government by seizing control of SHIELD. As they continued to destabilize the Ultimates and SHIELD as a whole, they framed members of the Ultimates so that they could secretly position agents of HYDRA inside SHIELD.

I like that theory. Don't think it'll happen, but I think it would make for a good story.

Ok, read the issue.
Decent enough, but it felt somewhat empty.
Having not gone through the whole thread yet, I'll ask a few questions.

Why didn't Fury want the Ultimates involved? They were all involved in the attack on Thor and the Hulk. Emotional attachments wouldn't really be a consideration.

Perhaps because most were closer to Cap than Thor. Thor was always the loner of the group, despite his close relationship with Tony. He was also always viewed as a possible whack-job. Plus they were just trying to take Thor down and put him in jail, whereas they're most likely going to kill Cap after apprehending him. Different circumstances.

This plane of Tony's, can't be innocent. If the Ultimates are being disassembled, then how could this be the work of someone else to bring down Tony?

Definitly won't be nothing that comes out of it. The plane must mean something, though I have no idea what.

Cap still doesn't strike me as a child killer, so were all of his emotional scenes just played for the cameras?

Could be, or more likely he wasn't the one who killed them.

And on the topic of cameras, Hanks place would be bugged too. If Hank is such a security risk then why hasn't the conversation between Hank and the traitor been viewed yet? They have people on the job following him, even to the point of infiltrating a group before he himself joined.

After the events of #8, perhaps Fury will go back and have the tapes examined to double-check. Hank was a security risk but there was no reason to assume he was working with a traitor. Now that Hawkeye has been (supposedly) killed, he'll (much like we were) be looking for clues everywhere.

And why on Earth did Fury tell Cap about the liaisons that Jan was having with Hank? Fury would tell Jan to stop, right, why use Cap as a middle-man?

I figure Fury was testing him, as he knew there was a traitor already before Hawkeye's death, just couldn't prove it or who. This was probably a way to purposely light Cap's fuse to see if he was responsible. Fury is a master puppeteer, after all.

Again, we see that Fury is the only one that knows about secret video footage that reveals the traitor.

Footage he himself could have altered for his own purposes. *GEEK*!!

 

[Guijllons]

Testing him? I doubt that.

And given the resources Fury has spent on Hank, those tapes would have been viewed before now. Sure of it.

Tape evidence seems to be Millar's deux ex machina, or is there some real unifying thing behind it. That's the point I'm getting at.

Shot in the dark, Ultron's based on 'Vision'. Not that that statement could really mean anything.

 

[DIrishB]

Testing him? I doubt that.

Why? Why else would he tell him?

And given the resources Fury has spent on Hank, those tapes would have been viewed before now. Sure of it.

Yet Hawkeye's weren't until Fury ordered them examined at that specific point in time. They had a time of death to work on with that, in Hank's case they'd have to go through weeks or even months of camera footage.

Tape evidence seems to be Millar's deux ex machina, or is there some real unifying thing behind it. That's the point I'm getting at.

Shot in the dark, Ultron's based on 'Vision'. Not that that statement could really mean anything.

 

[Guijllons]

Why? Why else would he tell him?

I don't know. But it does stand out as being odd. Fury playing games with the members of the Ultimates isn't the Fury we seem to know, that's all I'm saying.

Yet Hawkeye's weren't until Fury ordered them examined at that specific point in time. They had a time of death to work on with that, in Hank's case they'd have to go through weeks or even months of camera footage.

Hawkeye wasn't under surveillance.

 

[Big E]

Gotta wait another week to pick this up, but it sounds like Cap was framed or turned evil. Did he act suprised or angry when being arrested? Why would this Cap be an traitor? In ultimates Annual Fury said Cap only has five good years left in him at the max. My guess is if this is true the five year estimation was way off and the super soldier serum had a adverse side effect which brought out a evil Cap. Maybee Loki sensed this and exploited it, causing the ultimates downfall. Oh well, a comic has never made me guess and speculate this much before-grr. Any mention of the Hulk in this issue?

 

[SeAcoW]

No mention of the hulk. Cap was surpriced and had no idea what Fury was talking about. He said so even.

 

[Tenyuki]

Hawkeye wasn't under surveillance.

Uh... yeah, he was. Why else would there be cameras around?

 

[MoS]

Uh... yeah, he was. Why else would there be cameras around?

Yes, cameras were set up and recording at Hawkeye's, but not being actively reviewed. Fury calls for the recording to be reviewed between 1am and 2:15am, so you can figure that was the established time of death, yet the issue is more-or-less set during the daylight hours. If someone had been actively monitoring the cameras, they would have seen when the "main" cameras were disabled and would have gone to the back-up cameras, and SHIELD would have been on the scene a lot faster.

Of course, it's also been established that there are 6 full-time SHIELD guards around the house, and they had to have been taken out in the attack as well, so you'd think the first hint that something was wrong would have either been a shift-change there or when they failed to report in on schedule.

 

[Guijllons]

Uh... yeah, he was. Why else would there be cameras around?

There is a difference between a security camera and having agents follow you around all day.

 

[E]

Testing him? I doubt that.

I don't. He already clearly doesn't trust anyone, not even Cap, and this was evident before he even saw the tapes (Lieberman/Ults. 2 Annual - I thought it was pretty clear he was implying that death wouldn't be the only reason he'd need a Cap replacement).

 

[Guijllons]

I don't. He already clearly doesn't trust anyone, not even Cap, and this was evident before he even saw the tapes (Lieberman/Ults. 2 Annual - I thought it was pretty clear he was implying that death wouldn't be the only reason he'd need a Cap replacement).

I just don't see what Fury would gain from telling Cap about Jan and Hank. If Fury had told him, and Cap is the traitor, then he'd have effectively told him that he'd seen Cap going to visit Hank too. Unless the gloved person talking to Hank was actually Jan, then it could make some sense. But telling Cap to be sure of his loyalty or test his reaction doesn't seem very right.

 

[Bass]

Cap was surpriced and had no idea what Fury was talking about. He said so even.

If Cap is the traitor, he killed children.

Do you really think he wouldn't lie?

 

[Bass]

I just don't see what Fury would gain from telling Cap about Jan and Hank. If Fury had told him, and Cap is the traitor, then he'd have effectively told him that he'd seen Cap going to visit Hank too. Unless the gloved person talking to Hank was actually Jan, then it could make some sense. But telling Cap to be sure of his loyalty or test his reaction doesn't seem very right.

Yes. None of it adds up - but some of it does. It's very... troubling.

 

[Rawb]

Could just be the art but to me, Jan didn't look very shocked or even worried.

 

[Guijllons]

Could just be the art but to me, Jan didn't look very shocked or even worried.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. I was toying with the idea of bringing it up but I couldn't really tell if it was the art or not. I mean, her boyfriend being accused of murdering a teammate or kinda pleased that part of the plan was fitting into place, hard to tell.

 

[Rawb]

Yeah.. I don't know. I'm leaning towards it being the art but then again, Hitch is very very good. It's probably just the art though. :/

 

[Bass]

I thought her reaction was appropriate.

 

[Guijllons]

But that does almost look like a smile.

Hmm, what is interesting about the Cap and Hank thing is that Cap didn't go and beat up Hank. Maybe that was the test, if there was a test.

 

[Guijllons]

And (and I'm sure this has been discussed), what did wanda see on her phone? Can't be info about Cap, the Ultimates were in the dark about it all. Who would contact wanda first, of all people?