Ultimates 2 #7 discussion (spoilers)

[Guijllons]

Poo poo Guij, poo poo.

The reason he's not in the running is he's not even part of the Ultimates, but the Union. I don't see how he can betray a team he's not a part of.

The Union are part of STRIKE that are part of SHIELD, it's perfectly acceptable that he is betraying the whole organisation.

That said, the only reason to suspect him is because it's completely and utterly unpredictable as it has no bloody point other than "ooh, you'd never have guess".

Not so, the criteria for the traitor fits very well. Furthermore, you have to look at the sides in this conflict. What is the British response to the US incursions into the middle east? We're really ****ing pissed off about it, we're really angry about it, we look at long term agendas, we look at Bush pushing through people into the UN during recess to bypass the senate, we look at any number of problems that we could (if we wished) attribute to the US security forces. Is Braddock an idealist? Yeah, I'd say he is. Though I don't know what his ideals are yet.

He actually does fit, however, especially when you consider than the Captain's powers are created by his suit, which would imply why he would use a gun when in a trenchcoat...

He's taken time to conceal his identity, he'd use something that would not be traced to him. wouldn't he?

Also, it ties up with a supposition I had that Captain Italy's security leak meant that the traitor was messing things up for the Union as well... crap. Captain Britain does actually fit. But then, so does Captain Spain. And France. And Italy. And ****ing Captain Finland.

By revealing the Union, they were forced to come out of hiding, and this also forced the Ultimates to take action against Thor. And no-one else in a power belt could take Thor, he was supposed to be the strongest of them all. And this is why Loki is involved too. Loki associated himself with this group, not vice versa. He facilitated the removal of the strong one.
And it makes sense that Loki would need an insider.
Yes, it could be any of them, but who else has a real grudge against the US security forces, and really believed in America as Brian did.

I'd be supremely pissed if this was true since... Cap Brit didn't exist until #2, the issue AFTER the Hulk is outed to the press. I'd find this an unbelievably cheap reveal and since Hitllar have said this has been planned since Volume 1, I find it hard to believe it's anyone from the Union. It would be like finding out its one of the Giant Men or the Reserves.

I don't think so, Captain Britain is a major character of the Marvel universe (to me at least) and it could only be someone that really effected the readers. Look at your own reaction, how pissed you'd be. This is big news. The UU Cap. Britain is evil!(?)

I think he fits very well, and it's an exciting twist. He's an insider, he's got the opportunity, maybe the motive. I quite like the possibility. Though I'm not without a pang of NOOOOooooOOOOooOooOs myself.

ps. Well, I've suggested everyone else.

 

[moonmaster]

Well, I've suggested everyone else.

Well,...not everybody.












*COUGH!COUGH!COUGH!ultimatehowardtheduckCOUGH!COUGH!COUGH!*

 

[Guijllons]

It was Ultimate D-Man.

FACT!

 

[moonmaster]

It was Ultimate D-Man.

FACT!

Guij is always right.

FACT!

 

[Guijllons]

*wonders how long Bass's reply shall be since he's been typing away at it for a good 30 minutes*

 

[Bass]

I don't think so, Captain Britain is a major character of the Marvel universe (to me at least) and it could only be someone that really effected the readers. Look at your own reaction, how pissed you'd be. This is big news. The UU Cap. Britain is evil!(?)

I'd be pissed because that means to get emotional satisfaction from the Ultimates 2 you need to be a 616 g33k. Doesn't that go against the ENTIRE point of a UU universe?

The reason I'd be pissed is not because he's Captain "BRITAIN" but because in the UU he's really Captain Nobody. To me, it's just a shock twist. I'm expecting insight. We know that when the traitor's identity is revealed, we can look through the Ultimates' first volume to see the clues (I believe Millar posted something to that effect) - if it's Captain Britain, that is not possible.

I say again, if Cap Britain, then why not Captain Spain? Or the black Goliath Reserve guy?

Yes, some of the pieces fit, except for one.

It wouldn't actually be a good story at all.

Sorry, but I really don't think that the traitor can be anyone but Captain America, Iron Man, or Wasp. If it's someone else, I'll be amazed since it won't make sense (Hulk, Nick Fury, Thor, Giant Man, Hawkeye), or it'll be cheap and pointless (Quicksilver, Widow, Scarlet Witch).

If you stray from the core Ultimates heroes (the guys on the cover of U2#1) then why stop at Betty Ross? Why not Hellcat or Son of Satan? Why not Jason? You know Jason don't you? He was one of the technicians in #2 "Big" when Giant Man got his powers. He seemed to believe in the work they were doing, he enjoyed it after all. And he's been mysteriously absent. Also, he could be a baby-killer in his spare time. Sure, he doesn't have a last name, but it could be him - no one would see it coming.

Seriously, the reason I made the manifesto was to try to promote discussion. Instead I see the same two things over and over again: people come up with more esoteric characters who can be the traitor, with completely baseless speculations to who it could be in the hopes that they've 'named everyone else', and me instead of promoting discussion going round telling them that they're wrong and I'm right, calcifying any arguments on who the traitor is. I am my own worst enemy. Yay.

I don't mean to sound like I'm pissed off with you Guij, but I think I've reached the end of my tether with all the traitor wild guesses. I swear, if I have to tell someone that the traitor isn't Fury because we know he isn't black, I'll go mad.

And to make matters worse, everytime I say, "It can't be this guy because it's stupid, it's a random guess, and the traitor has a different skin colour" a voice in my head goes, "I'm making the humble crow pie, just in case you're wrong. If you are, you've got one big meal ahead of you, Overconfident-Man".

Fleeb.

 

[Bass]

*wonders how long Bass's reply shall be since he's been typing away at it for a good 30 minutes*

Nah, it only took me 10. I think. I dunno. Who's timing NOW, *****?

 

[Ice]

I dunno.....the traitor ended his sentence with "Soldier", and that's something Fury has done a lot in Volume 1 (A clue like Millar said!).....

 

[Bass]

You're not even allowed to show your face around here since that whole Ultimate Mad Thinker fiasco.

 

[Ice]

You're not even allowed to show your face around here since that whole Ultimate Mad Thinker fiasco.

You mean something everybody misunderstood, and NOT the topic of this thread? :wink:

 

[Bass]

Yep. Everyone misunderstood it. Whatever you say, Wrongmastertron. :wink:

 

[Guijllons]

I'd be pissed because that means to get emotional satisfaction from the Ultimates 2 you need to be a 616 g33k. Doesn't that go against the ENTIRE point of a UU universe?

Not at all, the actions of the traitor have been out of character for any of the Ultimates, and none of them have an obvious motive for killing Hawkeye's family. If it is a case of "well, they weren't his family afterall, it was all a setup", then I'd be pissed. The motive needs to be established, and I'm sure that once it is we will see clues in the dialogue of the character. People were guessing Jarvis before Gunnar was introduced.

The reason I'd be pissed is not because he's Captain "BRITAIN" but because in the UU he's really Captain Nobody. To me, it's just a shock twist.

A twist better than a guy that was seen in a couple of frames during specific moments in the story but not actually introduced towards the very end? You can take the Loki/Gunnar story as being a bit Agatha Christie from a certain perspective. Wouldn't it be interesting to see someone we don't expect and then have to spend time wondering why?

I'm expecting insight. We know that when the traitor's identity is revealed, we can look through the Ultimates' first volume to see the clues (I believe Millar posted something to that effect) - if it's Captain Britain, that is not possible.

I'd not read that Millar had mentioned that the clues were throughout the title.

I say again, if Cap Britain, then why not Captain Spain? Or the black Goliath Reserve guy?

Again I say, motive, America.

Yes, some of the pieces fit, except for one.

It wouldn't actually be a good story at all.

If you're read the Ultimates#8 then why the hell haven't you let us in on the secret? It's a totally plausible suggestion that works in logic and could equally work in print.

Sorry, but I really don't think that the traitor can be anyone but Captain America, Iron Man, or Wasp. If it's someone else, I'll be amazed since it won't make sense (Hulk, Nick Fury, Thor, Giant Man, Hawkeye), or it'll be cheap and pointless (Quicksilver, Widow, Scarlet Witch).

You're right, it needs someone with impact. Someone that people will think "aw ****, not them, why is MIllar doing this?"

If you stray from the core Ultimates heroes (the guys on the cover of U2#1) then why stop at Betty Ross? Why not Hellcat or Son of Satan? Why not Jason? You know Jason don't you? He was one of the technicians in #2 "Big" when Giant Man got his powers. He seemed to believe in the work they were doing, he enjoyed it after all. And he's been mysteriously absent. Also, he could be a baby-killer in his spare time. Sure, he doesn't have a last name, but it could be him - no one would see it coming.

Because none of them have either the opportunity, motive, ability or resources.

Seriously, the reason I made the manifesto was to try to promote discussion. Instead I see the same two things over and over again: people come up with more esoteric characters who can be the traitor, with completely baseless speculations to who it could be in the hopes that they've 'named everyone else', and me instead of promoting discussion going round telling them that they're wrong and I'm right, calcifying any arguments on who the traitor is. I am my own worst enemy. Yay.

I don't mean to sound like I'm pissed off with you Guij, but I think I've reached the end of my tether with all the traitor wild guesses. I swear, if I have to tell someone that the traitor isn't Fury because we know he isn't black, I'll go mad.

And to make matters worse, everytime I say, "It can't be this guy because it's stupid, it's a random guess, and the traitor has a different skin colour" a voice in my head goes, "I'm making the humble crow pie, just in case you're wrong. If you are, you've got one big meal ahead of you, Overconfident-Man".

Fleeb.

It's not left field, it's perfectly possible. If Millar has another character in mind then yay Millar. But Cap Britain is a clear and plausible candidate.
If we were to take all the data and condense it we'd end up with no-one in the Ultimates. White (apparently not ambiguous colouration), Female (speech and maybe the hand), believes in America (Not Wanda or Natasha). It's Wasp. The answer is wasp, wasp wins. So what?
The point of the thread is discuss ideas, plausibilities. It could be Brian Braddock, but so what? If something is illogical, we move along and hopefully learn something in the passing.
Brian Braddock fits the hole in the jigsaw, maybe the piece is too small, but it fits in the gap.

 

[Bass]

Wouldn't it be interesting to see someone we don't expect and then have to spend time wondering why?

But people will only wonder why if they care about the character. Captain Britain is too much of secondary character for his motives to be really worth delving into. They guy hasn't even said anything for 2 issues.

I'd not read that Millar had mentioned that the clues were throughout the title.

Great. Now I'm terrified I made that up.

If you're read the Ultimates#8 then why the hell haven't you let us in on the secret? It's a totally plausible suggestion that works in logic and could equally work in print.

Because everyone ridiculed me when I read #7 in a dream, because it wasn't "real". I read it dammit!

Actually, I've not read #8. I'm just thinking that Cap Britain isn't a good twist. I'd be unbelievably disappointed.

Because none of them have either the opportunity, motive, ability or resources.

Neither does Captain Britain. You're assuming that he does. The only real thing he could've done is the Captain Italy leak, and we don't even know if that was connected. I mean, just how could Britain get access to the Hulk files anyway?

The point of the thread is discuss ideas, plausibilities. It could be Brian Braddock, but so what? If something is illogical, we move along and hopefully learn something in the passing.

Which is why I said I'm my own worst enemy. Someone comes along with a theory and I just deep six it because I've become completely and utterly inflexible.

In any case, I know my tone was harsh, but it's not meant to be. I tried to clear that up, but I don't find Britain plausible.

 

[Guijllons]

But people will only wonder why if they care about the character. Captain Britain is too much of secondary character for his motives to be really worth delving into. They guy hasn't even said anything for 2 issues.

Or has he?

Actually, I've not read #8. I'm just thinking that Cap Britain isn't a good twist. I'd be unbelievably disappointed.

To me, it all depends on the play. I've seen so many things on paper that seem to never work in the telling, but they do. Now, I'm not saying that it is Cap. Britain absolutely, but I feel a certain disappointment if it was any of the Ultimates. Imagine if we were just shown a face and left to wonder the motives until the next issue. It would suck, no matter who it was.
To me, it's the motive and not the character that will drive this story onto it's conclusion.

Neither does Captain Britain. You're assuming that he does. The only real thing he could've done is the Captain Italy leak, and we don't even know if that was connected. I mean, just how could Britain get access to the Hulk files anyway?

He's a member of STRIKE, his dad runs STRIKE from what we can see. He seems to have wanted to be part of this organisation all his life, he idolises Cap. America. Just because he's in a different country doesn't mean that he cannot access files. Whoever the traitor is knew about Thor and his theft of the belt. They had access to the STRIKE files.

In any case, I know my tone was harsh, but it's not meant to be. I tried to clear that up, but I don't find Britain plausible.

The problem I have with the scenario set up here is the parties involved. We have the US security forces, we have the middle east, and we have "them". I did focus on the "them" aspect a little when coming up with this theory. Rather literal wasn't it? But there is a them, there is a definite force that has ideals and disagrees with the US and has their own agenda. Would any of the Ultimates be canny enough to forward their own agenda of this scale? Not off the top of my head. But Millar continues to surprise, and I continue to read. So it's all good, whatever the outcome.

 

[moonmaster]

Can't we all just get along?







*is shot in face*

 

[Guijllons]

Can't we all just get along?

Yes, all everyone needs to do is agree with me

*is shot in face*

*hands moony a spare face*

Sorry, I only had an Elton John lookee likee

 

[moonmaster]

*hands moony a spare face*

Sorry, I only had an Elton John lookee likee

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bass]

To me, it all depends on the play. I've seen so many things on paper that seem to never work in the telling, but they do. Now, I'm not saying that it is Cap. Britain absolutely, but I feel a certain disappointment if it was any of the Ultimates. Imagine if we were just shown a face and left to wonder the motives until the next issue. It would suck, no matter who it was.
To me, it's the motive and not the character that will drive this story onto it's conclusion.

Which is why it has to be a character the audience is emotionally attached to, otherwise they won't care about his motives.

Whoever the traitor is knew about Thor and his theft of the belt.

Er... no they didn't. The only reason anyone knew about Thor and his belt was because Gunnar told them, and if he's Loki, he changed reality so that the belt would disarm him. The traitor had nothing to do with Thor's downfall.


In any case, I hope when we see #8 we go, "Ahh, of course it's him/her" and not, "huh? Why him/her? Oh great, two months to wait before it makes any sense". There's too much to find out - for example, who the hell is the traitor working for?! Who is 'the other side'?! I hope in #8 we get more answers than questions, it's been long enough. I thought #7 was the 'reveal the traitor' issue and #8 was the 'why is this person the traitor' issue. I'll be wound up if Hitllar start padding.

Still, everything so far's been great, so I have faith.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I have to agree with the whole motive thing. Alot of people are saying Cap, alot of people are saying Janet, and alot of people are saying it was Bass for creating donuts.

We need more info on this matter.

 

[Guijllons]

Which is why it has to be a character the audience is emotionally attached to, otherwise they won't care about his motives.

I want to know why Hawkeye's family is dead, don't you? He's enough of an insider for it to be shocking. And frankly, the motive for any of the Ultimates for killing this family would seem forced wouldn't it? None of them seem able to pull the trigger on a child and all seem to be quite satisfied with the life they have in the Ultimates.

Er... no they didn't. The only reason anyone knew about Thor and his belt was because Gunnar told them, and if he's Loki, he changed reality so that the belt would disarm him. The traitor had nothing to do with Thor's downfall.

Loki had been in cahoots with the traitor from the beginning, Volstagg said that Loki had aligned himself with a power that even the supersoldiers couldn't win against. He was always there. There is no reason to think that he didn't know about Thor's belt.
And as for changing reality so that Thor would be disarmed by the removal of the belt, we don't know this is true. You're just reaching now. We can only assume that Thor is a guy and a god and doesn't necessarily have any of the powers afforded to him by the belt himself. While it may be true what you say, it's not been written.
The removal of the members of the Ultimates has been systematic, Hulk was strong, Thor was strong, and a way to remove them was engineered between the efforts of Loki and the traitor. I would say that the traitor did indeed know Loki's plans and by that, about the belt.

In any case, I hope when we see #8 we go, "Ahh, of course it's him/her" and not, "huh? Why him/her?

Everything will make sense in the end.