Ultimate X-Men #78 discussion (Spoilers)

[Lynx]

Kirkman on Cable:

I totally and utterly disagree with Kirkman on this one.

First, I don't want to cringe when I think of a character's origin. There's a difference between being the son of an established character and BEING an established character. See, as the son of Scott, Cable IS his own man. He's his own character. Ultimate Cable being Wolverine makes them the same character, regardless of how different the current Wolverine becomes.

Not to mention it goes into alternate timeline territory, which is something that I never, ever wanted to happen in the Ultimate Universe. Continuity headaches are the worst when it comes to alternate timelines. . .

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Why would Wolverine change his name to Cable anyway? Why wouldn't he still be Wolverine? Or Logan? Or James? Or Patch? Or Canucklehead? Or Zombie Wolverine? Or Future Man?

Why Cable?

 

[Lynx]

Why would Wolverine change his name to Cable anyway? Why wouldn't he still be Wolverine? Or Logan? Or James? Or Patch? Or Canucklehead? Or Zombie Wolverine? Or Future Man?

Why Cable?

He just got over excited after switching from satellite.

 

[Zombipanda]

I totally and utterly disagree with Kirkman on this one.

First, I don't want to cringe when I think of a character's origin. There's a difference between being the son of an established character and BEING an established character. See, as the son of Scott, Cable IS his own man. He's his own character. Ultimate Cable being Wolverine makes them the same character, regardless of how different the current Wolverine becomes.

I don't know. I kind of like it. My feeling is, Wolverine's the best at what he does, but he sucks at everything else. And what does Wolverine do? He f*cks sh*t up. Sure, it's all good and well when that **** happens to be a giant samurai robot with boobs and laser eyes, but he doesn't exactly have an off switch, so the **** he ****s up is just as often someone's life. The Cable thing should give Wolves a serious moment of reflection. Because he knows in the future he's still good at ****ing **** up, and that **** he's ****ing up may not necessarily be something he agrees with. It also puts a nice perspective on his past. Just a little while ago, Wolverine was willing to kill Cyclops just for a chance at ***** and then he screwed over Jean. He just saw his future self willing to kill Xavier in order to change the future, rather than for his own self interest, and he's well on his way to ****ing up Storm's life.

If we've got to see Wolverine everywhere, I prefer seeing him develop as a character.

 

[Ice]

He just got over excited after switching from satellite.

Heh. That was the same bad joke John Barber did at Wizard World Philly.

"Let's just say the X-Men won't be getting their news from the satellite anytime soon..."

*very quiet room*

Quesada: What? That tease was horrible!

"It'll be with Cable..."

 

[Lynx]

Heh. That was the same bad joke John Barber did at Wizard World Philly.

"Let's just say the X-Men won't be getting their news from the satellite anytime soon..."

*very quiet room*

Quesada: What? That tease was horrible!

"It'll be with Cable..."

I know. Hence the reason I made it.

 

[Ice]

I know. Hence the reason I made it.

Well, that was to show the others who dont know about what happened! :wink:

 

[Lynx]

Well, that was to show the others who dont know about what happened! :wink:

Touche!

 

[Foolsfolly]

I don't know.

Wolverine as Cable sounds terrible. Just terrible.

But Cable acted like old school gun toting Cable during the arc (despite saying Bub a few times). It was well written, and we never got a complete "yes" on if he is or not.

So after Kirkman leaves odds are quite high the next writer will undo that and at least make Cable a Wolverine clone, at the most a human (or mutant since his eye glows...for seemingly no reason) who had to have an upper hand on all fights and had adamanitium claws added in.

And if he is Wolverine, would you rather have it be a Wolverine from an alternate timeline or slowly see Wolverine becoming Cable?

 

[Dancanread]

this seems a good place to ask this question. do the writers write solicitations? or if not, do they have creative control at least? veto power? or is it all the publisher? i'm not impressed with anyone who "guessed" xavier was gonna bite it, cause of the solicitation that pissed me off; about the "leaderless" xmen, which i was hoping was some kirkman-esque red herring. i mean, they're so concerned with civil war spoilers that they're censoring those solicits and covers. what made someone think that "leaderless" comment was acceptable?

P.S. "It's raining ***holes".

 

[Victor Von Doom]

I don't know.

Wolverine as Cable sounds terrible. Just terrible.

But Cable acted like old school gun toting Cable during the arc (despite saying Bub a few times). It was well written, and we never got a complete "yes" on if he is or not.

Wolverine as Cable isn't as bad as it sounds. Well...ok--maybe it does. But I blame that on the fact that nothing was explained by Kirkman. All we got was Cable popping claws outta one hand and some comment about how "he's had to go without healing powers for 30 years...".

Now obviously that leaves it wide open for future stories like:

• How did he lose his healing ability?
• Why was he out to kill Xavier?
• What did Xavier do to ruin the future?
• Why does he go by Cable now?

....and the list can go on. Maybe if he was doing another 2-3 arcs that played off each other like his filler arcs---then the story would have space to flesh out some major holes. But as of now---the Cable arc, while very solidly written, was just another filler arc. Nothing happened except that Xavier said he loved Jean and died. The character of Cable was left totally ambiguous.

So after Kirkman leaves odds are quite high the next writer will undo that and at least make Cable a Wolverine clone, at the most a human (or mutant since his eye glows...for seemingly no reason) who had to have an upper hand on all fights and had adamanitium claws added in.

There really is no reason to undo any of that. As of now---Cable accomplished his mission and killed X. So by time travel law rolleyes:...yeah I know...) whatever Xavier did in the future to cause Cable to come back and kill him is undone----thus negating Cable's exsistence. But one could argue that since Bishop is still there---whatever Cable did do---didn't work. So that means at some point down the line, Xavier will be back and whatever he was supposed to do----he still will. If that makes any sense?

So yeah.....no need to retcon anything...........yet.

And if he is Wolverine, would you rather have it be a Wolverine from an alternate timeline or slowly see Wolverine becoming Cable?

I'd hate for the alternative timeline crap to seep into the UU. That's what ****ed up 616 in the 90s.

I'd rather Cable be Wolverine (the real one--not some clone) and there be a reason behind him becoming who he is. Like say---Ultimate Legacy virus. Perhaps the virus was the good intention-gone wrong brainchild of Xavier and some scientists.....and it wiped out mutants. But because of his healing factor Wolverine survived but the virus ate away at his DNA structure, thus negating his powers. So he was allowed to live---but as a human instead of mutant.

Then let there be some weird apocalyptic fallout war that lasts for decades and that makes Wolverine see that this is all Xavier's doing and the only way to prevent this is to go back and kill Xavier. Blah blah blah....add in filler details and whatnot.

Or something to that nature. Not the greatest idea....but just one that came of the top of my head.


But of course with that explanation you still get the time-spider problem. So the only way around that is to make Cable the future version of a Wolverine clone that was created from the DNA Sabertooth took.




Bah.....all this crap is causing the UXM to mirror 616 X history and making my brain hurt.

 

[DIrishB]

You called it. But I say he'll do it in 8.


This calls for a classic MWoF poll. How Many Issues Until Xavier's Return? And with a possible "And How?"

That would be righteous!

I totally and utterly disagree with Kirkman on this one.

First, I don't want to cringe when I think of a character's origin. There's a difference between being the son of an established character and BEING an established character. See, as the son of Scott, Cable IS his own man. He's his own character. Ultimate Cable being Wolverine makes them the same character, regardless of how different the current Wolverine becomes.

Thats why I'm pretty sure Cable is actually Wolverine's clone, not Wolverine himself. This would obviously be the result of the cloning experiment Sabretooth was a part of, and we got a glimpse of in Date Night. Hence, he still is his own man. A clone doesn't necessarily have to retain the character of the original.

Not to mention it goes into alternate timeline territory, which is something that I never, ever wanted to happen in the Ultimate Universe. Continuity headaches are the worst when it comes to alternate timelines. . .

Fully agree, there.



But do we really think that Cable is the actual Wolverine? That would kind of paint the character into a corner, wouldn't it? The clone of Wolverine would explain a lot, in terms of Cable no longer having his healing factor.

 

[Zombipanda]

I don't know.

Wolverine as Cable sounds terrible. Just terrible.

But Cable acted like old school gun toting Cable during the arc (despite saying Bub a few times). It was well written, and we never got a complete "yes" on if he is or not.

So after Kirkman leaves odds are quite high the next writer will undo that and at least make Cable a Wolverine clone, at the most a human (or mutant since his eye glows...for seemingly no reason) who had to have an upper hand on all fights and had adamanitium claws added in.

And if he is Wolverine, would you rather have it be a Wolverine from an alternate timeline or slowly see Wolverine becoming Cable?

I think it would be a cheap cop-out to make Cable a clone, and an unnecessary complication to boot.

I think there's a simple elegance in how it stands now. If we keep it how it is, we don't have to worry about time paradoxes. Somewhere in the future, Xavier's actions are going to cause Wolverine to turn against him, make him lose his healing factor, and dedicate himself to finding a way to neutralize all his former team-mates. Furthermore, this happens early enough that, while all the X-Men are legends, no one's even heard of Wolverine. Wolverine betrays the X-Men in the future, and whether he's right or the X-Men are right is ambiguous. Making the character a clone is a cop-out and a complete betrayal of the emotional severity of what happens. Logan's trust of Xavier is one of the primary reasons he's managed to evolve from the monster he was before, and now he finds out that trust may have been completely unfounded. I think it works, and I think it works well.

I'd love if Wolverine spent the foreseeable future trying to uncover the truth behind Xavier and discover what leads him to becoming Cable. Since his inception, we've seen Wolverine on a quest to discovering his hidden past in pretty much every medium possible, and it's almost always disappointing. I think it would be a damn cool twist if he's instead uncovering his dark future.

Also, just a side thought that came to me. It's just speculation, but what if Xavier was somehow involved in the early stages of Weapon X or Weapon Plus? We know that Wolverine's going to be getting a miniseries uncovering his past soon, and we now know that something Xavier does causes Logan to turn on him. What if discoveries in his miniseries, about how his and Xavier's past intertwine, is the impetus for him becoming Cable in the alternate future?

As for time paradoxes, I'd prefer if it's up in the air as to whether Wolverine definitively becomes Cable in this future or not. It should be an issue he wrestles with for a long time in the upcoming issues. I don't see the issues of time paradoxes as a problem. You just don't pay them any attention. That's how Terminator did it, and I think it works fine. Multiple alternate futures really aren't important to the story, so why dwell on them?

I really don't want Cable to be a clone. If that's the case, then all the emotional resonance of the character is lost.

 

[ultimatedjf]

I don't know why, but the combination of the art on that bear guy (I don't care for names) combined with him, out of nowhere, yelling "It's raining ***holes!" made me laugh out loud. It seemed like something out of "The Juggernaut *****"

 

[Lynx]

Thats why I'm pretty sure Cable is actually Wolverine's clone, not Wolverine himself. This would obviously be the result of the cloning experiment Sabretooth was a part of, and we got a glimpse of in Date Night. Hence, he still is his own man. A clone doesn't necessarily have to retain the character of the original.

Fully agree, there.

But do we really think that Cable is the actual Wolverine? That would kind of paint the character into a corner, wouldn't it? The clone of Wolverine would explain a lot, in terms of Cable no longer having his healing factor.

See, this is where I really don't like what Kirkman did to Cable.

If Cable is Wolverine, it means that either a) we start getting alternate timelines or b) Wolverine will become Cable no matter what. Because of this, there is no difference between Cable and Wolverine other than experience and it sucks.

If Cable is Wolverine's clone, then we avoid all this tripe. . .but then we're back to clones and why they ****ing suck.

 

[Gemini]

okay i may be over analyzing this but,

with chuckles dead, wouldn't wolverine do everything in his power to avoid becoming cable?, thus preventing wolverine from becoming cable in the first place, thus allowing Xavier to live, thus wolverine never knowing about cable, thus wolverine eventually becoming cable, thus cable killing xavier, thus wolverine doing everything in his power to avoid becoming cable, thus preventing cable from ever happening.... oh know i've gone cross eyed

time travel stories are always so confusing

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

okay i may be over analyzing this but,

with chuckles dead, wouldn't wolverine do everything in his power to avoid becoming cable?, thus preventing wolverine from becoming cable in the first place, thus allowing Xavier to live, thus wolverine never knowing about cable, thus wolverine eventually becoming cable, thus cable killing xavier, thus wolverine doing everything in his power to avoid becoming cable, thus preventing cable from ever happening.... oh know i've gone cross eyed

time travel stories are always so confusing

This reminds me of why I hate heavy sci-fi so much.

Thinking about this makes my brain hurt.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Well, any time there's time travel from the future you have an alternate timeline. No one will rigidly follow the events depicted in the future of one story to the limit of telling any other story. It just won't happen. At one point 2099 was THE future of Marvel. How's that working out?

 

[Foolsfolly]

I've read a lot of good posts here, and this is something I gotta say.

Zombipanda's post was great. It proved to me, that this was a really good story for Wolverine. But as I read it one thing kept...gnawing at me. A story of a future crazed Wolverine coming back to kill the only man Wolverine ever trusted, is a good story. But when you make that Wolverine into Cable....it kinda cheapens one character at the expense of another.

I think this whole story would have worked better under a different name, and never referring to Future-Wolverine as anyone but Patch, Logan, Jim, James, whoever.

Of course there's the Time Spiders....but...we all know about that...

Victor Von Doom:

There really is no reason to undo any of that. As of now---Cable accomplished his mission and killed X. So by time travel law rolleyes:...yeah I know...) whatever Xavier did in the future to cause Cable to come back and kill him is undone----thus negating Cable's exsistence. But one could argue that since Bishop is still there---whatever Cable did do---didn't work. So that means at some point down the line, Xavier will be back and whatever he was supposed to do----he still will. If that makes any sense?

You also forgot to add the crazy factor. Bishop's own words were that Cable lost touch with reality and came back to hunt an innocent man.

And about the time travel law, that brings up a great question to ask Kirkman on his board. Does the UU have alternate timelines?

Kirkman spills the beans on a lot of questions so there's a decent chance we won't get a "Keep reading to find out" answer.

Still a change we will but, it's worth asking. And I will next time I'm on his board (don't much care for most of the posters there...elitist?).

That's about all I have to say at this moment. Good arc, it has problems. Now for 3 issues of morning Xavier filler!

JOKING! I'm really looking forward to it.

 

[Zombipanda]

I've read a lot of good posts here, and this is something I gotta say.

Zombipanda's post was great. It proved to me, that this was a really good story for Wolverine. But as I read it one thing kept...gnawing at me. A story of a future crazed Wolverine coming back to kill the only man Wolverine ever trusted, is a good story. But when you make that Wolverine into Cable....it kinda cheapens one character at the expense of another.

I think this whole story would have worked better under a different name, and never referring to Future-Wolverine as anyone but Patch, Logan, Jim, James, whoever.

Of course there's the Time Spiders....but...we all know about that...

Victor Von Doom:


You also forgot to add the crazy factor. Bishop's own words were that Cable lost touch with reality and came back to hunt an innocent man.

And about the time travel law, that brings up a great question to ask Kirkman on his board. Does the UU have alternate timelines?

Kirkman spills the beans on a lot of questions so there's a decent chance we won't get a "Keep reading to find out" answer.

Still a change we will but, it's worth asking. And I will next time I'm on his board (don't much care for most of the posters there...elitist?).

That's about all I have to say at this moment. Good arc, it has problems. Now for 3 issues of morning Xavier filler!

JOKING! I'm really looking forward to it.

Thanks Folly. I appreciate it. I do agree about the Cable thing. It sort of makes Cable a wasted Ultimization, and it would maybe be better if they'd used a different name: particularly if they'd used one of Wolvie's aliases in the 616 universe. Since Kirkman's talking about Age of Apocalypse showing up somewhere in the near future, maybe using the "Weapon X" persona would have been a nice nod. However, you have to look at the character being ultimized. It's CABLE for god's sakes! When you look at a bunch of other ultimizations (Millar ultimizing some of the best Avengers villains as the Liberators just to kill all of them off, 99% of Bendis' ultimizations), it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Besides, it gave him the opportunity to use the Six Pack, which was kind of cool. Sure, he may have gone the wrong direction using Cable there, but I don't think it's a big enough change of direction to really get upset about.

And we're lucky this isn't hard sci-fi, right? It's comic book adventure, with some slight elements of soft sci-fi, which means if it doesn't help the story, we can ignore the time paradoxes of the story - the same way that we ignore things like the implausibility of mutations in the first place.

Also, I forgot to mention it, but Colossus channeling Drago was awesome. "I WILL BREAK YOU!"