Ultimate Spider-Man # 75 Thoughts (spoilers)

Blacksword said:
Interesting issue (was enjoying it until the last couple pages), but unless Bendis does some explaining the plot hole that was opened up is gonna be a real problem.

As others have said, Harry being in the explosion should not equal Harry having goblin powers. Norman developed his powers not because of the explosion but because he was mainlining Oz during said explosion and was at its heart. And he went back to normal some time after, when the initial Oz high wore off. He was nutty as a fruit cake after, but Norman's goblin abilities only became permananent after repeated injections of Oz, and the massive ammount he took in Legacy... unless we are to presume he had the ability all along and only needed more Oz to allow his mind to make the transformation. But that's uneccesarily complicated and needlessly confusing. Confusing plots do not equal good suspense by default.

But a few further questions do come to mind. If Shaw is Harry's Tyler Dyrden, then is the underground goblin bunker even real, or is it a psychological equivalent of the cellar of nasty truths hidden behind the cellar door safe word? Given all the stuff in there I'd be tempted to say it's not real. Goblin images, Oz, Doc Ock's arms, all the stuff Harry's been insulated from.

The other option is that the Shaw personality (someone who represents all that's bad about Norman - the guy who did his dirty work) has been causing Harry to inject himself with Oz from the bunker, and that Harry has not had powers from the start... which is more logical as Norman yelling "cellar door" in Legacy didn't cause Harry to turn into a second Goblin then.

I will admit that Harry being alone out of everyone there unaffected by the explosion on reflection at the present time is a bit odd. However, we only were given insight into the Oz related nature of Ock's fusion with his arms in Ultimate Six. We assumed he was the same as in 616 and that the explosion just fused the electronics to his nervous system. So it wasn't evident from the first Arc that Harry would be affected in any special way by the explosion. Only after Ultimate Six could that conclusion be drawn, and even then it's tenuous as Octavius was right next to Osborn while Harry was almost out of the room when the explosion took place. I personally think Bendis is really stretching this one and the plot's starting to tear. Which is a shame since Bendis is a better writer than this.
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Well you made me officially question this issue. Good work.
 
quavers said:
Something that struck me about this issue was the fact that Shaw said he was invisible to S.H.I.E.L.D., and that he couldn't go and to Peter himself. What if Shaw can actually, turn invisible. He must know about Peter's Spider sense, so he can't go near him. And the reason Nick Fury dosn't know that he exist is because he can't see him. Maybe shaw is Ultimate Mysterio?
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something i have suggested earlier...something that also makes me lose more and more respect for brian bendis now that i think about it. :roll:
 
Blacksword said:
As others have said, Harry being in the explosion should not equal Harry having goblin powers. Norman developed his powers not because of the explosion but because he was mainlining Oz during said explosion and was at its heart. And he went back to normal some time after, when the initial Oz high wore off.
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I'd be willing to bet it was more than just the explosion that did it. Remembr, the arc isn't over yet. There's lots of 'splainin' to do still.

The Captain said:
something i have suggested earlier...something that also makes me lose more and more respect for brian bendis now that i think about it. :roll:
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You lose respect for him over your own baseless (and probably inaccurate) speculation? :roll:
 
Ultimate Super Mega gerbils

TheManWithoutFear said:
Mysterio being tied in like that would seriously cheapen a lot of things. I doubt Bendis won't make him have his own original backstory.
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stop it, you are making me want to burn my USM collection.... :( the fun is gone now....sniff sniff
 
I re-read the issue and I was thinking... I know that we've all established that we think Shaw was an illusion, however, the question is, what has been real and what hasn't? If he's an illusion, how could he have picked Harry up in a car? How could he have beaten him? Well, I might have a solution... Do you know when Shaw said "cellar door" and he was suddenly back in New York? What if he never left? That whole flashback was in his head. That way, he could know about his father's plans and have Shaw convince him to carry on with them. I don't know if this has any real water to it, BUT it may be something we need to watch, too.
 
Goodwill said:
I re-read the issue and I was thinking... I know that we've all established that we think Shaw was an illusion, however, the question is, what has been real and what hasn't? If he's an illusion, how could he have picked Harry up in a car? How could he have beaten him? Well, I might have a solution... Do you know when Shaw said "cellar door" and he was suddenly back in New York? What if he never left? That whole flashback was in his head. That way, he could know about his father's plans and have Shaw convince him to carry on with them. I don't know if this has any real water to it, BUT it may be something we need to watch, too.
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yes it has water to it...the question is, is shaw alive or dead by the time harry transforms into this Hobgoblin....at some point he was real, i mean, pete did turn away and run from him when he tried to kill him in issue 1. Maybe she is really there the entire time, but pete cannot see him...perhaps only harry can see him, but i think he is in harrys mind...knowing he was able to call harry names upon finding out more info....
 
Goodwill said:
I re-read the issue and I was thinking... I know that we've all established that we think Shaw was an illusion, however, the question is, what has been real and what hasn't? If he's an illusion, how could he have picked Harry up in a car? How could he have beaten him? Well, I might have a solution... Do you know when Shaw said "cellar door" and he was suddenly back in New York? What if he never left? That whole flashback was in his head. That way, he could know about his father's plans and have Shaw convince him to carry on with them. I don't know if this has any real water to it, BUT it may be something we need to watch, too.
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That's pretty interesting Goodz. I like that idea better than the Tyler Durden one.

So here's probably what happened. During the events in Legacy Norman hired Shaw to take Harry on a the little tour and teling Shaw to make sure that Harry would try to find him where ever they were holding him. The pyschiatric sessions made these memories dormant until now so what he's having is flashbacks but he's remembering where everything is and what Shaw was telling him. So what happened in the sessions with "cellar door" is they were able to misplace Harry's memories until an oppurtuned time.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
That's pretty interesting Goodz. I like that idea better than the Tyler Durden one.

So here's probably what happened. During the events in Legacy Norman hired Shaw to take Harry on a the little tour and teling Shaw to make sure that Harry would try to find him where ever they were holding him. The pyschiatric sessions made these memories dormant until now so what he's having is flashbacks but he's remembering where everything is and what Shaw was telling him. So what happened in the sessions with "cellar door" is they were able to misplace Harry's memories until an oppurtuned time.
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he probably hired shaw to do this waay before legacy..the first arc even...
 
Don't you think that Shaw was implanted in Harry's mind by Norman? I mean what is the only thing that Shaw is trying to make Harry do? Free Norman.
Harry is Normans failsafe!
That he used Shaw as the image is logical. He had to use a picture that said loyalty and that was already known to Harry.
 
Ultimate Warrior said:
Don't you think that Shaw was implanted in Harry's mind by Norman? I mean what is the only thing that Shaw is trying to make Harry do? Free Norman.
Harry is Normans failsafe!
That he used Shaw as the image is logical. He had to use a picture that said loyalty and that was already known to Harry.
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I think Shaw was actually doing everything he did at some point. I could quite figure out how he placed "Shaw" into Harry's mind but it makes more sense when you think about it as I am.
 
Ultimate Warrior said:
Don't you think that Shaw was implanted in Harry's mind by Norman? I mean what is the only thing that Shaw is trying to make Harry do? Free Norman.
Harry is Normans failsafe!
That he used Shaw as the image is logical. He had to use a picture that said loyalty and that was already known to Harry.
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im following you on that....but that has to be further explained, theres still the issue with shaw driving the car....harry probably isnt old enough to drive yet if he is petes age...
 
The Captain said:
im following you on that....but that has to be further explained, theres still the issue with shaw driving the car....harry probably isnt old enough to drive yet if he is petes age...
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Except for the fact that in #73 during the flashback sequence, when Harry is at school, sitting in his car, watching Pete and MJ talk to Johnny Storm (from when he showed up in #68-69). He's sitting in the drivers seat and no one else is with him so I'd have to assume he could drive himself. Besides, he only needs to be a few months older than Peter to be 16 and old enough to drive. Don't forget, Peter's been 15 years old for at least 9 months, meaning he'll be 16 before too long.
 
DIrishB said:
Except for the fact that in #73 during the flashback sequence, when Harry is at school, sitting in his car, watching Pete and MJ talk to Johnny Storm (from when he showed up in #68-69). He's sitting in the drivers seat and no one else is with him so I'd have to assume he could drive himself. Besides, he only needs to be a few months older than Peter to be 16 and old enough to drive. Don't forget, Peter's been 15 years old for at least 9 months, meaning he'll be 16 before too long.
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you are right....great observation....you are on the money with your stuff as of late....good job!!! :D ....but that still doesnt show why harry would picture himself in the passengers seat if that was true...or how after he got slapped around and cellar door was said...he woke up in ny again..
 
The Captain said:
you are right....great observation....you are on the money with your stuff as of late....good job!!! :D ....but that still doesnt show why harry would picture himself in the passengers seat if that was true...or how after he got slapped around and cellar door was said...he woke up in ny again..
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When am I not on the money?

;)

In terms of the Shaw being all in Harry's mind, I don't know about that. But it would appear this is the best explanation for a few reasons, most notably the fact that only Harry can see him. As to him picturing himself in the passenger seat while Shaw takes him to the underground lab, I look at it like this. If Shaw is all in Harry's head, perhaps he's like a split personality. Not to say Shaw wasn't real back in the first arc, but either he's died or could still be alive elsewhere. Perhaps, for whatever reason, Harry either adopted his image/personality to contain a splintered part of his psyche. While he's driving with Shaw, perhaps Harry as Shaw is driving while conversing with Harry, and Harry is imagining himself in the passenger seat, almost to validate his illusion. People with split personalities have been reported to converse between personalities, and when one personality takes control the other(s) very often have no memory of events while the one personality was in control. In Harry's case, Shaw took control and took himself (Harry) home. Then, Shaw maybe relinqueshed some control, allowing the Harry personality to "wake up", already home and not knowing how he got there. Then Harry gets up and is able to have a conversation with himself (Shaw).

It seems like a likely avenue for Bendis to take with the character, and in a way mirrors the 616 Hobgoblin in a way. In 616, it was a long process of finding out who the Hobgoblin was, many different suspects without finding the right one until Roderick Kingsley (think that was his name). Perhaps Bendis is using the multiple personality angle to salute the original 616 Hobgoblin, or maybe its just a viable and easy way for Bendis to write Harry's transformation from Peter's best friend into his enemy.
 
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