Ultimate Spider-Man #103... SPOILERS!

[Goodwill]

Indeed. But the fact that the memories weren't wiped in first place only meant awkward dialogue and oddity that damn near ruined the arc altogether. For me, anyway.

 

[the watcher]

I'm still holding out for lesbian action between MJ and Jessica.

I got something for that,.. but E would never let me post it. (maybe) That and certain people morals seem to turn on when I post stuff like that. They never do that with other people, but me... they'll wine and say: you need to stop posting stuff like that. (even though other people have posted worse) Because you'll upset the girls and the kids on this site. bla bla bla...

 

[Caduceus]

I got something for that,.. but E would never let me post it. (maybe) That and certain people morals seem to turn on when I post stuff like that. They never do that with other people, but me... they'll wine and say: you need to stop posting stuff like that. (even though other people have posted worse) Because you'll upset the girls and the kids on this site. bla bla bla...

Unless you'd feel comfortable showing it to your mother, your grandmother, and an assortment of 5 and 12 year olds, don't post it. If anyone's life has been ruined by this horrific oppression, I would suggest you contact Watcher by PM and continue it offboard.

Whining about the rules and the terrible oppression doesn't change them. Some stuff is appropriate for on-board discussion and some isn't.

 

[supermusli]

I wish someone could wipe MY memory and convince me Ultimate Spider-man was cancelled before the Deadpool-arc and this...

And this wasn´t even the worst issue of the clone saga - I even enjoyed small parts of it, which makes me feel slighty filthy.

Oh, and my impression of Doc Ock and his arms is that he is able to control only the metal his original arms where made up of. I know they were destroyed at the end of Hollywood, but if Ock is able to control the material mentally, maybe he could put them together again. A little like the T1000 in Terminator 2 (who actually WAS melted beyond repair at the end of that movie, but... well.. yeah... maybe they cloned Doc Ocks arms before they destroyed them then!)

From now on, every plot inconsistence in this title can be explained with: they cloned it before it happened and inserted false memories. Thats why Sable didn´t recognize Spider-man after the videogame!

Coming up next: Peter Parker is a replicant, and MJ has dreams of unicorns...

 

[Zombipanda]

What strikes me as funny is that a few people seem to be saying "Well, maybe this Clone Saga thing isn't all THAT bad. Bendis did some stupid things, but he ended up fixing them in the end." But that's ludicrous. He turned MJ into a goblin, brought back Richard Parker as a clone of Peter, and introduced a bunch of poorly ultimized characters as clones of Peter. Quickly fixing the MJ problem and killing off all the clones doesn't improve the storyline. It makes it worse. Instead of taking these ideas and trying to twist them in interesting new directions, he just screws with the reader by introducing a series of lame concepts, and then dumps them. I think Kaine should die. He's served his purpose, by showing how Peter's psyche could become twisted and potentially ruin everything he cares for. I think there should be some serious fallout from Mary Jane turning into a furry's wet dream (which might happen). He's already made his bed. It's already done. Now try to do something interesting with it. Maybe he should kill off Tarantula and Scorpion, but if he does that, he's just admitting the characters weren't there to serve any real purpose. I'd like to think there are loose plans for these guys somewhere in the future, but somehow I doubt it. And introducing Richard Parker was a completely useless plot thread. All it provided us with is an issue filled with an origin story that no longer even matters. Jessica Drew's history is kind of interesting, and she's the best bet for a character to keep around, but I don't know. The idea of what's essentially a forced sex-change operation is incredibly disturbing, but I doubt it will be used effectively.

If Bendis kills off these characters and brushes the MJ change under the rug, he's pretty much saying he's just been ****ing with us throughout this whole storyline with no payoff. Maybe it would be best if he DOES sweep all thoe new changes under the rug, but hell, that would still mean this is the worst and most inconsequential story he's ever told.

 

[Goodwill]

I think the fact that the whole MJ/Goblin thing wasn't a huge part of the story other than something to lean on for a more interesting cliff-hanger was a good thing... Now, it'll only be treated like she was poisoned or something... Which is what essentially happened.

 

[darkspider]

Don't forget, we have Gwenarnage running around. And that' up there with incredibly stupid things that have happened in this arc. I mean, it's not like Peter's gonna date Gwen, when he knows she is a clone of a vampiric montrosity and can morph into the beast whenever he emotions get outta control. Bendis has one issue left. It's supposedly double sized, so maybe he'll do something about it...yeah right.

Oh, and is Gwen in Fury's custody now?

 

[omega234]

Quickly fixing the MJ problem and killing off all the clones doesn't improve the storyline.

Doesn't need to. Only bring a certain closure to it. Besides, not all the clones are dead yet. MJ being a monster I do not believe was ever to be permanent. Only the potential aftermath which we have yet to see.

Maybe he should kill off Tarantula and Scorpion, but if he does that, he's just admitting the characters weren't there to serve any real purpose.

Or that they already served their purpose and are no longer necessary to the storyline.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

I bet that right before Bendis leaves, he's going to have some sort of bestiality scene with MJgoblin and Peter. The man is disturbed.

And so am I. I'm going to go and smash my face against some concrete until the head trauma causes a mild retardation that will cause me to forget about any sort of bestiality between comic book characters.

 

[Zombipanda]

Besides, not all the clones are dead yet.

We can guess from our past experience with Bendis exactly what will happen to the clones though. They'll either be killed or they'll be brought back to the Triskelion never to be seen again. Hell, maybe Bendis will surprise us, but his track record states tha one of the above two things will happen.

MJ being a monster I do not believe was ever to be permanent. Only the potential aftermath which we have yet to see.

I don't think it was intended to be permanent either. And Kaine's psychology of "I'll make MJ able to protect herself" was one of the few things in this story that jived with me. In fact, I would have liked for this conflict to have played a larger role in the storyline, rather than Parker encountering Kaine and MJ for a couple of panels. Hell, it would have been much more dramatic if they'd completely removed the Gwen Stacey subplot and instead, Parker had to disarm a rampaging Mary Jane.

We have to look at what the fallout will be. If anything, Kaine's intervention goes to show that no matter what happens with Peter and MJ's relationship, MJ will never be completely safe. Maybe that will turn out into an interesting twist. I predict it's just going to lead to a little more high school melodrama.

Or that they already served their purpose and are no longer necessary to the storyline.

Let's take a look at what purpose they served in the storyline. Scorpion showed up at the mall to attack Peter, leaving us with the shocking cliffhanger that HE'S REALLY A CLONE. Gwen Stacey shows up out of nowhere to provide us with the shocking cliffhanger that SHE'S REALLY CARNAGE (and therefore, an imperfect clone). Tarantula shows up for the shocking revelation that HE'S REALLY A CLONE (although his presence didn't push the story forward. He's just there as eye candy). Richard Parker showws up and gives us a whole song and dance about how he's been alive all along. It turns out that this whole story (and the greater part of a whole issue) is a complete red herring. Want to take a guess why? HE'S REALLY A CLONE! Spider-Woman shows up to push the plot forward a little bit by revealing what's been going on from square one, and also SHE'S REALLY A CLONE! Kaine is the only one who's personal motivations actually serve the story in an interesting fashion. Why? BECAUSE HE'S REALLY A (psychotic) CLONE! Ben Reilly, surprisingly isn't a clone. He's doing exactly what we guessed he was doing since the last time we saw him. Nick Fury also, surprisingly, isn't a clone. Nope. Instead he's doing exactly what we'd expect him to do after Bendis hastily set up the "Spider-Slayers" subplot. Doc Ock, surprisinly, isn't a clone either. He's just a bad guy. With a whole new set of magical powers.

So what happened in this plot? We've had six (I think it was six. Has it been five?) issues where revelation after revelation is that there's a bunch of clones of Peter. Sometimes these clones serve to push the plot forward. Sometimes they're just there to look pretty. But in every case except Kaine and Jessica Drew (still pending, but she has the greatest probability of being worthwhile), they're just plot devices to push forward the story, or worse, to provide us with an interesting cliffhanger that eventually reveals itself to be a red herring covering the shocking revelation of CCLLOONNEESS!! Hell, we get an issue that's mostly a throwaway storyline (Richard Parker) for the express purpose of distracting us from what's essentially a very simple plot.

And what does this plot boil down to? Doc Ock made a bunch of Spider-Man clones, and now he wants Peter Parker. To get to this end point, we had a massive arc that involved the needless reintroductions of Gwen Stacey and Richard Parker. We got two more clones that have no personalities and at their best, served as simple plot devices. We got another clone that had an interesting psychology but only a little bit of face time. And finally we got Spider-Woman, who has a lot of creepy potential.

Sorry if I seem disappointed, but it feels to me like the "shocking revelations" were mostly shlocky cliffhangers and red herrings.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

For the record...

I'm fine with the clones being plot devices. I don't want to see more than one of them outside of this arc. It's called "The Clone Saga" so it's all right if these wasteful characters stay within the boundaries of this story.

I only think Scorpion was a waste because it was a waste of Ultimization potential. Especially since he was the most looked forward too Spider-Man rogue.

Tarantula? Man-Spider? Could care less. But again, it's fine because hopefully he's dead but appeared in The Clone Saga. I have a problem with his appearance but you have to come up with something so he doesn't look like Peter.

Kaine. I agree with Zombipanda. A lot of potential in exploring Peter's darker sides and what happens when he really can't handle the responsibilities of his powers. But should die before arc's up.

Jessica Drew. Makes sense in context of everything else going on. I just hope they keep her out of USM and stick her onto the Ultimates.

Richard Parker. Stupid. Clone an older version of me and you're not going to come out with my father. And if the next reveal is that Peter's actually a near perfect clone of his dad after Richard's wife left him.... {insert idle threat of dropping the book here}

 

[Zombipanda]

For the record...

I'm fine with the clones being plot devices. I don't want to see more than one of them outside of this arc. It's called "The Clone Saga" so it's all right if these wasteful characters stay within the boundaries of this story.

I can sympathize with that, but I still don't agree.

One of the major points of the UU is to take characters who seem silly today and to revamp them to make them interesting and believable characters. I feel that if you can't do something interesting with the character, then leave them alone so maybe a writer who might have an interesting spin on them has a clean slate to work with. However, Bendis seems resolute on getting his fingers on every character, major or minor, who's ever appeared in the Marvel universe. It's a total dick move to take characters you either don't like or don't have a creative way to revamp, and bring them into the story for an issue or a panel just because you can. And this seems like another symptom of that. Bendis could have easily done this story with Jessica Drew, Kaine, and one or two other clones to push the story forward. Instead, he insists on throwing in characters left and right to just end up in the wood chipper.

I only think Scorpion was a waste because it was a waste of Ultimization potential. Especially since he was the most looked forward too Spider-Man rogue.

It's a shame he takes one of the top ten most recognizable Spider-Man villains and turns him into a clone. Then again, look at Vulture.

Tarantula? Man-Spider? Could care less. But again, it's fine because hopefully he's dead but appeared in The Clone Saga. I have a problem with his appearance but you have to come up with something so he doesn't look like Peter.

That's what really frustrates me. I'm sure there's a writer out there with a creative, innovative take on these characters. Instead, we get Teen Wolf Peter Parker and Doc Ock Peter Parker. Are you doing this so Marvel can start churning out variant action figures or what, Bendis?

Kaine. I agree with Zombipanda. A lot of potential in exploring Peter's darker sides and what happens when he really can't handle the responsibilities of his powers. But should die before arc's up.

Diggity. Kaine provides a perect psychological foil to the Peter Parker we've seen for the last hundred issues. If the Clone Saga's really supposed to be a turning point in his life, then the thrust of the story should be a conflict with either Kaine, or Kaine's ideologies, allowing him to start a new chapter in his life after this storyline. Kaine should definitely die by the end of this. It just would have been nice for him to be more pivotal in the plot. Scrap Doc Ock. Kaine should be the bad guy.

Jessica Drew. Makes sense in context of everything else going on. I just hope they keep her out of USM and stick her onto the Ultimates.

Bendis surprised the hell out of me. Drew's history is incredibly disturbing. USM, being a kid-friendly book, really doesn't have the latitude to explore the implications of this. I hadn't thought about it before, but Ultimates is a perfect fit. Here's to praying Loeb's able to do her justice.

Richard Parker. Stupid. Clone an older version of me and you're not going to come out with my father. And if the next reveal is that Peter's actually a near perfect clone of his dad after Richard's wife left him.... {insert idle threat of dropping the book here}

That's one thing I don't see happening. Bendis seems to always be toeing the line, baiting the reader, but once the smoke is cleared, nothing too destabilizing has happened to Peter. Sure, we get plenty of stupid storylines and stupid ultimizations, but in the end, none of it changes Peter too dramatically.

 

[TwilightEL]

I agree with the people who say that Kaine, his mission, and his conflict with Peter was/are the best part of the clone saga. I hope he does something besides lie on the ground smoking.

In my opinion, Scorpion has a lot of potential. I think he would be most interesting in showing how people deal with him. When I read 97, I was really amused by the idea of Peter having to babysit an insane version of himself. Scorpy could be like 616 Deapool, if a little less lucid. Plus, he has *****in' armor. But if Scorpy just spends the rest of his life in some lab somewhere, then he is a wasted character.

Tarantula was just eye candy. I wish, I wish, I wish so badly that he had won the fight with Kaine in 100. He could've talked to MJ and gotten a personality (plus spread the exposition out a little so we didn't get told everything in 102), stopped MJ Goblin from ever existing, and made Kaine have to continue his psychotic mission (and therefore put him into more interesting conflict with Peter and his "siblings").

I also wish S.H.I.E.L.D. hadn't gotten involved so soon. Yes, it's more realistic, but I think it would have been better if, for example, Peter and some of the clones were at the lab they were created in when S.H.I.E.L.D. burst in because they'd been investigating on their own.

 

[gondee]

I was rereading the clone saga last night and I wondered about some stuff, I don't know if Bendis is going to answer any of these things, but it would be nice.

Whenever Scorpion busted into the mall in the first issue, he repeatedly says something like "You don't understand! HE said that! Take off your mask masked man" or something like that. I can't for the life of me reconcile that with anything that's taken place so far in USM. Is that quote from somewhere else in the series? Does it make sense with anything that's happened so far?

I'm probably paranoid I know, but reading the progression of the storyline, I think there might be the real Richard Parker and Aunt May running around. The timing between Doc Ock's inference when the cloning of Richard Parker took place and Richard's story of when he met May the first time in the parking lot doesn't seem to coincide. Ock seems to infer that Richard was cloned recently with the other clones, while Richard's version seems to put him meeting May at much earlier than that. And since May pretty much corroborated Richard's story, that makes me wonder if she's the real May. Probably just paranoid, but I had questions about where Peter will live if he gets kicked out after May recovers. Having May be a cloned May would be a stupidly convenient way to get out of that, and Bendis still hasn't resolved if May's overnight "stay" with that doctor guy has any bearing on the clone saga now.

I doubt either of these things have any bearing on anything, but I figured you all would be able to give me any insight if any of these things actually hold weight.

 

[TwilightEL]

Whenever Scorpion busted into the mall in the first issue, he repeatedly says something like "You don't understand! HE said that! Take off your mask masked man" or something like that. I can't for the life of me reconcile that with anything that's taken place so far in USM. Is that quote from somewhere else in the series? Does it make sense with anything that's happened so far?

In the very first arc, in the second or third issue (I think), Peter goes to a wrestling ring. He's in the audience standing right next to MJ as if they went together. Flash and Kong are a yard or two away, as if they went together, but not with MJ and Peter. In a few shots, a high balcony with people standing on it is clearly visible.

Kong tries to enter the ring but can't because he's too young. Peter goes home, gets a corny ski-mask and sweats costume, and the next day he beats the crap out of Crusher Hogan and gets a job wrestling. After his first match, the announcer and manager says "Who are you, masked mystery man? Reveal yourself to the crowd!" That's Scorpion's line.

I mentioned all the details before because I think that the Hogan challenge match was at the mall, not the wrestling arena. Manager guy set up the mall exhibition, which people could watch for free. It was an advertising gimmick he ended when Spider-Man showed up. It makes sense that Peter and MJ would be there the first time, because they seem to like the mall, even though they're not the wrestling types.

So basically, Scorpion remembered the match (and the promise of sweet, sweet money) and ran to the mall. This really doesn't make that much sense, but it doesn't have to, because Scorpion is bat**** crazy!

 

[E]

In the very first arc, in the second or third issue (I think), Peter goes to a wrestling ring. He's in the audience standing right next to MJ as if they went together. Flash and Kong are a yard or two away, as if they went together, but not with MJ and Peter. In a few shots, a high balcony with people standing on it is clearly visible.

Kong tries to enter the ring but can't because he's too young. Peter goes home, gets a corny ski-mask and sweats costume, and the next day he beats the crap out of Crusher Hogan and gets a job wrestling. After his first match, the announcer and manager says "Who are you, masked mystery man? Reveal yourself to the crowd!" That's Scorpion's line.

I mentioned all the details before because I think that the Hogan challenge match was at the mall, not the wrestling arena. Manager guy set up the mall exhibition, which people could watch for free. It was an advertising gimmick he ended when Spider-Man showed up. It makes sense that Peter and MJ would be there the first time, because they seem to like the mall, even though they're not the wrestling types.

So basically, Scorpion remembered the match (and the promise of sweet, sweet money) and ran to the mall. This really doesn't make that much sense, but it doesn't have to, because Scorpion is bat**** crazy!

Interesting...thanks for posting that. I hadn't made that connection.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Interesting...thanks for posting that. I hadn't made that connection.

What he said.

 

[Goodwill]

Well, that at least makes Scorpion a little LESS crazy... And a little more cool.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Well, that at least makes Scorpion a little LESS crazy... And a little more cool.

Still doesn't do that.

 

[TwilightEL]

Still doesn't do that.

Yeah, that match was months ago. I don't get why Scorpion would be so fixated on it.

Originally, I thought that maybe Scorpy was cloned from the first blood Ultimate Doctor Octamagnetopus took from Peter. See, Osborn was watching Peter and had Shaw steal a blood sample from the hospital and figured that Peter was dying. So he had Shaw try to hit him with a car but Peter dodged it with his powers. Then Norman told Harry to invite Peter to the lab because he felt bad about the spider thing, and while he was there Ultimate Doctor Octamagnetopus took a blood sample.

I figured Scorpy was cloned from that sample, so to him the match happened a few days ago. But then I read the issue, and the blood sample was taken before Crusher Hogan issued his challenge, so it's a moot point. Scorpion's just nuts.