The Dark Knight {Spoilers Abound}

[Ice]

Um, but it was shown to us. We saw him fall and die. We saw Batman turn his head (being that close, I'm sure he could tell if there was a pulse or breath still being drawn). We saw a friggin' memorial for the guy. He's dead, people. Should they've shown his dead body on the morgue table, opened up while the coroner is examining the body to convince you he won't be back?

I've never said anything about wanting him back or whatever. I'm just saying I don't believe he's dead. Big difference.

 

[Bass]

But honestly can anyone explain to me how Gordon playing dead would protect his family?

Gordon stopped Joker's assassination of the Mayor. Joker killed two innocent people because their names were "Harvey" and "Dent". Gordon expected if he foiled Joker's plans, Joker would go after his family. Pretending he's dead means they're safe while he goes after the Joker.

Also - it allows us to see them halfway through the film so we know they exist for the finale.

The woman in front of me squealed.

A friend of mine, who was all "This will be average at best" and rather turned off by the hype, properly (like myself) shook and went "Bah!!!" I looked over at him and there was this big, "****. You got me you bastards." and enjoying himself.

I thought the last twenty minutes or so were the best part. Going from The Joker's last speech to the standoff with Harvey and Gordon's family. I really thought his son was going to die. And then Gordon's monologue at the end. I certainly thought they were the most powerful parts of the movie.

True... but I just disliked the manner of Dent's death.

Part of me thinks it might've been cool if Dent shoots Batman, then judges Gordon - and Gordon lives. Dent then goes to judge himself, Batman tackles him, the gun and the coin go flying. Batman and Dent go over the edge, the kid is safe on top and Gordon runs to him. Batman, dangling, holding onto Dent. Dent looks down and on the floor or on a girder or something below him, he sees the coin, bad-heads face up. He lets go - he falls.

But that might suck too. I honestly don't know. I can't stress enough, I think it was a little lackluster but in no way a 'deal-breaker'. It did not spoil the movie at all, but basically, it was totally satisfying to me.

But the judging part was great - I thought Gordon's son might buy it too.

"WHURURHEEE!!"

That's REALLY good! :lol:

Well, he would have been against the Joker, but fate said otherwise.

No, he wouldn't. Joker got the coin toss good heads up. He's safe from Dent. Their feud is over. It's a key reason why Dent's turn is so profound. He lets the architect of his madness GO because of a coin toss. We know he's lost.

Two Face could easily come back as a villain. The psychologicaal damage and his obsession with the number two could play out. Who cares if it's "just another super-hero movie?" It would still be awesome, and The Dark Knight wouldn't be any worse for it.

Two-Face in THE DARK KNIGHT has no obsession with the number two. His psychological damage is already played out in TDK to it's final extreme; Dent happy to kill himself over a coin toss.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Bass, that's how Two Face died in Batman Returns, or whatever that one was called.

 

[SSJmole]

Bass, that's how Two Face died in Batman Returns, or whatever that one was called.

Forever

 

[Joe Kalicki]

They don't need to James Bond Batman. Especially after this one. As I said, I don't think they should even make a third (although they will with how many records this movie is making). They need to quit while they're ahead and then look back and look at the crown jewel they made Batman after those lousy 90's Batman movies.

I'll never understand this ridiuclous mentality. No other movie will make this one less than it is. And what about the Batman fans who want to see a more action driven movie starring their favorite character? Why shouldn't they be serviced too?

 

[Goodwill]

Because a movie that follows up something like the Dark Knight will inevitably be compared to it. Don't get me wrong, would I like to see another Batman movie? I wouldn't mind. I know I'd enjoy it. But I would also go in there with reservations because the last one was so incredible. Part of me also thinks that if Joker is recast then it'll only make it worse, the other part of me thinks that if they don't recast the Joker then there's not really a memorable villain to bring in to appease the casual fan. There will be a lot at stake with a follow up to a film such as the Dark Knight, I think. These are my personal concerns, mind, but I can't help but feel these are concerns a lot of people have.

 

[Bass]

Bass, that's how Two Face died in Batman Returns, or whatever that one was called.

No it isn't. Two-Face is going to shoot Batman and Robin and he flips his coin. Batman throws a bunch of coins at him. Two-Face fumbles for the coin and falls off and dies. We then see his coin land good-side up.

The only way it's similar is that Two-Face falls and dies. And that's what happened in THE DARK KNIGHT as well.

So there. *thhppbb*

I'll never understand this ridiuclous mentality. No other movie will make this one less than it is. And what about the Batman fans who want to see a more action driven movie starring their favorite character? Why shouldn't they be serviced too?

Lucas kinda proves that franchisicide can happen. STAR WARS is forever tarnished by the prequels, and the same is for INDIANA JONES and THE MATRIX. While, yes, the good films are still good, their memories are tarnished by the fact that there are **** versions of those films in existence. It's not permanent. 20 years later, the original SUPERMAN movie is no longer tarnished by SUPERMAN III and SUPERMAN IV. So in 20 years, I think STAR WARS prequels will be forgotten as will CRYSTAL SKULL and the MATRIX sequels.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I didn't know, I've never seen Dark Knight.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

While a sequel might not be better than TDK, it could be as good as, or at least good. And in terms of whether or not it is better, that will be up to each person to decide. I think that they can pull off at least one more good Batman movie, if not more. I seriously can't picture them leaving Batman be, considering the ending that they have in TDK...plus the fact that it has made a tons of cash.

 

[DIrishB]

DIB is exactly right. It is scary I am agreeing with him so much recently.

Don't worry, its all going according to my plan. Speaking of which, you're due for another shot next week...

*plans trip to NZ*

Maybe he decides that the Joker is the one that should pay, maybe he goes after Maroni. Who knows? Just because someone personally can't think of a good way to bring him back, doesn't mean it can't be done, or done well. I don't know why I'm arguing this anyway. I don't think he should come back per se, I'm just saying he might not be dead. sheesh. :roll:

JFK might not be dead, but all available evidence says he is. See where I'm going with this?

None of that is proof that he is dead. The conversation between Gordon and Batman didn't even make it seem like they thought he was dead. It could be taken either way. Batman could just as easily wanted to take on the crimes that "Two-Face" commited to save the reputation of "Dent" whether he was dead or still alive. Whether or not he was dead wouldn't have changed the fact the Batman would have to keep Dent from looking a murderer in the public eye. Dent easily could have been unconscious.

Occam's Razor, look it up. And yes, a memorial service for somebody, an apparently dead body, and a COMPLETED arc for the character seem to indicate he is dead.

And yes, there was a memorial for Dent, not necessarily a funeral, just a memorial. It could have been just becuase I got horribly scarred for all we know.

They don't hold memorials for people being badly injured. If he'd lost his right hand instead of half his face, and became One Hand instead of Two Face, would you expect them to hold a memorial for his missing palm and digits?

In terms of Gordon's "foresight in faking his own death" are you telling me that he planned on the Joker being disguised as a police officer in the memorial service, waited until the Joker shot at the mayor, carefully jumped in front of the mayor (but in a way as to make sure he himself wasn't killed), all from the start. There is no way that Gordon's little trick could have been planned out in advance. Even you have to admit that that would make no sense.

No, I'm saying that Gordon, as a key member of the team attempting to capture the Joker was a target. Just like the mayor, Commissioner Loeb, the judge, and Dent all were. Gordon didn't need to know the exact time and place of an attempt on his life by the Joker, he just knew it was likely. Without thinking he took the shot for the mayor, and from there quickly formulated the idea of playing dead to protect his family (and himself). Since he's a member of the PD, it probably wasn't that hard to pull some strings and doctor reports to make it look as if he was dead.

Seriously, why are you completely ignoring the obvious answers and focusing on the more outlandish and unlikely outcome? Its like you're arguing the point merely for the sake of doing so instead of providing any real evidence of why Dent might be or should be alive.

It may have been that he took a bullet that injured him but didn't kill him, and he took that opportunity to fake his death there and then. He may have been planning to fake his death for a while, but had no specific plan. He saw that chance at the Commissioners memorial and took it.

Exactly.

And thanks DIB for pointing out Harvey's gone.

I'm thinking of changing my signature to "Two Face is DEAD".

I've never said anything about wanting him back or whatever. I'm just saying I don't believe he's dead. Big difference.

Fair enough.

I'll never understand this ridiuclous mentality. No other movie will make this one less than it is. And what about the Batman fans who want to see a more action driven movie starring their favorite character? Why shouldn't they be serviced too?

For an extra $50 bucks, you usually can be.

While a sequel might not be better than TDK, it could be as good as, or at least good. And in terms of whether or not it is better, that will be up to each person to decide. I think that they can pull off at least one more good Batman movie, if not more. I seriously can't picture them leaving Batman be, considering the ending that they have in TDK...plus the fact that it has made a tons of cash.

I completely agree with you there. I also think its retarded to say they shouldn't made a third Nolan Batman because it won't be as good as TDK. By those standards we'd never have gotten The Dark Knight after the mediocre Batman Begins. I don't expect a third to be as good as TDK (though I think it can happen), but I expect it to be substantially better than Begins, and I'm ok with that. A third Batman doesn't have to be on par with TDK...but it should be close. So yeah, in comparison to TDK a third might be sort of a let-down, but on its own could still be a good, or even fantastic Batman film.

And who knows...maybe after a few years of doing other films, Nolan and company will be motivated to outdo even TDK...and maybe, just maybe, even pull it off.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

I completely agree with you there. I also think its retarded to say they shouldn't made a third Nolan Batman because it won't be as good as TDK. By those standards we'd never have gotten The Dark Knight after the mediocre Batman Begins. I don't expect a third to be as good as TDK (though I think it can happen), but I expect it to be substantially better than Begins, and I'm ok with that. A third Batman doesn't have to be on par with TDK...but it should be close. So yeah, in comparison to TDK a third might be sort of a let-down, but on its own could still be a good, or even fantastic Batman film.

And who knows...maybe after a few years of doing other films, Nolan and company will be motivated to outdo even TDK...and maybe, just maybe, even pull it off.

It hurts me to say this but your explanation for Gordon's fake death makes sense. I'll have to wait until I go to the movie again to see if it is clearer this time...But I still think that Dent may be alive.

 

[Gothamite]

By those standards we'd never have gotten The Dark Knight after the mediocre Batman Begins.

?!

Tell me I'm misinterpreting.

I don't expect a third to be as good as TDK (though I think it can happen), but I expect it to be substantially better than Begins, and I'm ok with that. A third Batman doesn't have to be on par with TDK...but it should be close. So yeah, in comparison to TDK a third might be sort of a let-down, but on its own could still be a good, or even fantastic Batman film.

Here, here.

I'd just like a nice capper. I'm not looking for another masterpiece...but obviously it would be great if we had one.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

?!

Tell me I'm misinterpreting.

Some people didn't like Batman Begins.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

Some people didn't like Batman Begins.

I actually thought that in some ways Batman Begins was better than The Dark Knight. Just some aspects.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

I actually thought that in some ways Batman Begins was better than The Dark Knight. Just some aspects.

Well, you wouldn't be one of those people then.

 

[Gothamite]

Some people didn't like Batman Begins.

Yes, I know. All four of you have meetings once a year.

I happen to know that DIrishB liked it. I'm just wondering why he suddenly called it mediocre.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

Well, you wouldn't be one of those people then.

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I would truly be lost without you.

 

[Gothamite]

I actually thought that in some ways Batman Begins was better than The Dark Knight. Just some aspects.

There was more focus on Batman the character (whereas in The Dark Knight, Gotham City as a whole, was the focus), and there was certainly a lot more 'fun' (I love the scene where Bruce uses the elevator to go down to the Batcave and I love when Gordon drives the Tumbler). Plus, Batman just looked better in Begins. His mask was too helmety in TDK and in some scenes, it actually looked cartoonish.

Batman Begins was an excellent superhero movie, whereas The Dark Knight was a masterful ensemble-graphic-novel-thriller. It could have just as easily been called 'Gotham City'.

 

[Langsta]

The Joker saying he doesn't have a plan is the biggest Joke he tells in the movie. He had this all planned down to the tee.

Yeah.

And I think analyzing all the Joker's lines is taking him a bit too seriously. Why so serious?

I really don't like Batman Begins at all.

I think we know that by now.

Anyway, I'd rather have a non-Nolan/Bale Batman movie than no other Batman movie at all the rest of my life. I really think they ultimately need to James Bond him, come out with a new individual movie every couple of years, switch actors/writers/directors when necessary.

Nah, I like it more as a duology/trilogy. It's more...."iconic." The only way I would want a different director is if Zack Snyder did Dark Knight Returns....a standalone movie, not canon with the Nolan films.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Nah, I like it more as a duology/trilogy. It's more...."iconic." The only way I would want a different director is if Zack Snyder did Dark Knight Returns....a standalone movie, not canon with the Nolan films.

What's the point of having an "epic trilogy" or whatever and no more movies? They could still have their little epicness or whatever, but that's no reason for other movies not to be made.

Batman/Batman Returns were awesome, the next three were weak, The Dark Knight was amazing. There's no reason to limit the number of films that should be made, even if a couple are bad there could still be a good one down the road.