Star Trek discussion (Spoilers!)

[Iceshadow]

I enjoyed it though the coincidences bugged me a bit. Four stars.

 

[Random]

That seems to be a common misconception with IMAX. Yeah, it's bigger, but there's a whole lot more to the experience - the sound is fuller and more involved, and even the theater seats are arranged differently so that you're not staring at the back of someone's head.

Yep, it has a generally better experience than a typical theaters.

 

[Langsta]

Don't get me wrong - I thought Pine's Kirk was terrific, and he was entertaining, ballsy, and fun. I just don't think he was Neo Skywalker like the script makes him out to be. He was more like... Mal Reynolds. He's cool... but he's still small fry.

I thought they intended him to be like the Mal Reynolds/Han Solo/Indiana Jones type.

 

[E]

Again - Pike saying to Kirk, "You're really smart" doesn't mean he is. And while he did recognize the trap, if it wasn't for Sulu's ineptitude, he wouldn't have realised in time for it to make a difference. It was smart, but not, "You should lead the fleet" smart. And as for not Spock not noticing it... don't get me started on Spock's intelligence. *sigh* As for the Kobayashi-Maru - it was funny, it was smart, but it was also considered cheating (strangely, in Khan, Kirk got a commendation for it), which implied to me that his 'aptitude tests' were similarly cheated on.

I dunno...I think you're overthinking it. There was obviously something there that grabbed Pike's attention even before the new recruits left. I don't think it's essential to the story to know exactly what that is. Why would it be?

What was confusing about the time travel that was cleared up? While I got the time travel first time round, I thought it was bizarrely shoe-horned in and not a good fit.

I thought it was a good fit, I just didn't "get it" at first. It's probably just me - like I said, I was probably just overthinking it . Plenty of other people got it.

 

[Seldes Katne]

Saw this Sunday.

Sorry, folks, but I'm with Bass on this one. The movie was all right, and there were some good moments in it, but there were also enough problems with it that I can't whole-heartedly endorse it as "great".

 

[Bass]

I thought they intended him to be like the Mal Reynolds/Han Solo/Indiana Jones type.

Oh, it wasn't a criticism!

I dunno...I think you're overthinking it. There was obviously something there that grabbed Pike's attention even before the new recruits left. I don't think it's essential to the story to know exactly what that is. Why would it be?

Oh, I agree. We don't need to know what it is about Kirk that makes Pike want to give Kirk a fair chance. That, I am fine with. But through the course of the film, by having characters harp on about fate and destiny, people just go, "Yep. Kirk's the Captain because he's awesome" and yet... I didn't see proof of the awesome.

The distinction is in the change of the character. If the film started with everyone saying, "Kirk is our captain and he's so awesome", we don't need to know why. But if the point of the movie is (and it is), "Kirk becomes awesome and/or reveals his awesomeness" we need to see that legendary, awesome moment. We never did. He never did anything that made me go, "Wow". He was portrayed wonderfully, but what he did was rather... pedestrian. :/

Does that make any sense? Or am I rambling?

I thought it was a good fit, I just didn't "get it" at first. It's probably just me - like I said, I was probably just overthinking it . Plenty of other people got it.

But what made you "get it"? Was there a piece of exposition you missed or something? I'm curious because you're not a Trekker, and I did this thing when THE DARK KNIGHT came out of asking everyone who saw it but never heard of Two-Face what they thought was gonna happen to Dent. I like to try to watch a film from a different point of view, if I can.

Saw this Sunday.

Sorry, folks, but I'm with Bass on this one. The movie was all right, and there were some good moments in it, but there were also enough problems with it that I can't whole-heartedly endorse it as "great".

Seldes returns and validates me!

Yay for the site mom!

 

[E]

Oh, I agree. We don't need to know what it is about Kirk that makes Pike want to give Kirk a fair chance. That, I am fine with. But through the course of the film, by having characters harp on about fate and destiny, people just go, "Yep. Kirk's the Captain because he's awesome" and yet... I didn't see proof of the awesome.

The distinction is in the change of the character. If the film started with everyone saying, "Kirk is our captain and he's so awesome", we don't need to know why. But if the point of the movie is (and it is), "Kirk becomes awesome and/or reveals his awesomeness" we need to see that legendary, awesome moment. We never did. He never did anything that made me go, "Wow". He was portrayed wonderfully, but what he did was rather... pedestrian. :/

Does that make any sense? Or am I rambling?

I guess what I'm missing is where people are walking around saying Kirk is awesome or that it is the point of the movie. I don't think it is, and I guess that's the difference between the two viewpoints. I don't disagree that it is pedestrian, but what I got out of that is that even though it is, he is indeed so awesome that he turned it into a huge victory - against everyone else's instincts - and thusly earned a "true" promotion.

I think you're hinging too much on what seemed to kind of be an offhand move by Pike in appointing Kirk to first officer. Look at it this way - the ship was made up in a hodge-podge manner in the first place...McCoy, Sulu, and Uhura all basically fell face-first into their positions. Given that, and knowing that Pike knew that Kirk was exceptional (even if it was in ways we were never fully explained), and including the fact that he convinced them that they were going into a trap when even the mega-intelligent Spock, or the unparalelled comm. expert Uhura didn't see it...is it that odd that he gave Kirk the promotion?

But what made you "get it"? Was there a piece of exposition you missed or something? I'm curious because you're not a Trekker, and I did this thing when THE DARK KNIGHT came out of asking everyone who saw it but never heard of Two-Face what they thought was gonna happen to Dent. I like to try to watch a film from a different point of view, if I can.

It had nothing to do with not being a Star Trek fan...I had just missed some of the connections that the characters made (notably in a line by Uhura) that everything changed the moment Spock came back, because it led to George Kirk being killed, etc etc etc. Just poor attention-paying on my part.

 

[Bass]

I guess what I'm missing is where people are walking around saying Kirk is awesome or that it is the point of the movie. I don't think it is, and I guess that's the difference between the two viewpoints. I don't disagree that it is pedestrian, but what I got out of that is that even though it is, he is indeed so awesome that he turned it into a huge victory - against everyone else's instincts - and thusly earned a "true" promotion.

I think you're hinging too much on what seemed to kind of be an offhand move by Pike in appointing Kirk to first officer. Look at it this way - the ship was made up in a hodge-podge manner in the first place...McCoy, Sulu, and Uhura all basically fell face-first into their positions. Given that, and knowing that Pike knew that Kirk was exceptional (even if it was in ways we were never fully explained), and including the fact that he convinced them that they were going into a trap when even the mega-intelligent Spock, or the unparalelled comm. expert Uhura didn't see it...is it that odd that he gave Kirk the promotion?

Sulu was stationed on the ship like anyone else. He just happened to be in the chair since the senior officer for that post was ill. McCoy was one of the senior medical officers on the ship. And Uhura fought to get on the ship. While a little contrived, it wasn't a 'hodge-podge' really.

What I'm getting at is this point: why is Spock "mega-intelligent"?

Because he took a test with lots of crazy future questions? Because he uses long words?

Spock, in this film, is not smart. He doesn't do anything remotely approaching "smart". When I went back and watched the original series, for all its flaws and shortcomings, one thing it did was make Spock smart. Really smart. Smarter than the writers smart. The nuSpock is not smart.

It's a form of hype. Characters say and act like someone has displayed a trait, but they actually haven't. Pike believing Kirk is capable of greatness is fine, but I never felt Kirk proved that to the level the film seems he thinks he has. I'm fine with Pike having faith in Kirk, and Kirk did get the job done. But he didn't do anything amazing, just as Spock never did anything smart.

It's like Mark Millar's villains. They harp on and on about how bad *** and terrifying they are, and then they're dispatched with a punch.

Drives me crazy.

I dunno if I'm over-thinking it, but I'm definitely thinking. Which is annoying. I like it when a movie makes me shut up.

TAKEN. Dammit, I can't go on about that movie for more than a couple of sentences before I want to talk about how awesome throat-punching is.

I dunno. I'm a jackass sometimes.

It had nothing to do with not being a Star Trek fan...I had just missed some of the connections that the characters made (notably in a line by Uhura) that everything changed the moment Spock came back, because it led to George Kirk being killed, etc etc etc. Just poor attention-paying on my part.

Ah, okay. I thought, as you're no Trekkie, maybe you had a different way of looking at the movie rather than being such a SLACKER.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I need to make a paint based on Bass' arguments.

It will be epic.

If I ever get around to it that is.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I went a different route

Presenting LOLBASS!

All in good fun folks. Seriously.

This is a joke.

SO too start, these are ones that make sense with the current posts.

I start to go off on my own here, combining Trek and LOLCats

And then I go for below the belt with this one.

Next up, LOLTrek pics!

 

[thee great one]

:lol: Nice.



Why is everyone I hear obsessed with Taken. It was average!

 

[ProjectX2]

:lol: Nice.



Why is everyone I hear obsessed with Taken. It was average!

Seriously. DSF and I agree with you. It's a decent action movie but I have no desire to ever see it again. I really want to watch Star Trek again.

 

[E]

Sulu was stationed on the ship like anyone else. He just happened to be in the chair since the senior officer for that post was ill. McCoy was one of the senior medical officers on the ship. And Uhura fought to get on the ship. While a little contrived, it wasn't a 'hodge-podge' really.

Not contrived...and by "hodge podge" I meant that it was a series of circumstances that each got into the post they were in. None were selected as first choices, for whatever reason. They were all thrust into it.

What I'm getting at is this point: why is Spock "mega-intelligent"?

I'd say the same thing to that as I would Kirk's awesomeness - why does it need to be defined? He is presented as extremely intelligent and is accepted as such by the other characters and doesn't do anything to dispute that...does it matter "why"?

But actually "intelligent" is the wrong word. "Logical" is more appropriate. I agree that he doesn't necessarily display super intelligence (except maybe during the school scene at the beginning). Intelligence and logic are totally different - the right word is logic.

 

[Bass]

I went a different route

Presenting LOLBASS!

All in good fun folks. Seriously.

This is a joke.

SO too start, these are ones that make sense with the current posts.

I start to go off on my own here, combining Trek and LOLCats

And then I go for below the belt with this one.

Next up, LOLTrek pics!

I so wanted to do an actual Houde pic, but couldn't find a good one of him. :?

Very funny lolbass', Houde.

:lol: Nice.

Why is everyone I hear obsessed with Taken. It was average!

Seriously. DSF and I agree with you. It's a decent action movie but I have no desire to ever see it again. I really want to watch Star Trek again.

See how you've shocked and offended Liam Neeson? I'd take it back before he throat punches you.

Not contrived...and by "hodge podge" I meant that it was a series of circumstances that each got into the post they were in. None were selected as first choices, for whatever reason. They were all thrust into it.

By contrived... I meant "hodge podge" it seems. We are using different terms for the same thing.

I'd say the same thing to that as I would Kirk's awesomeness - why does it need to be defined? He is presented as extremely intelligent and is accepted as such by the other characters and doesn't do anything to dispute that...does it matter "why"?

But actually "intelligent" is the wrong word. "Logical" is more appropriate. I agree that he doesn't necessarily display super intelligence (except maybe during the school scene at the beginning). Intelligence and logic are totally different - the right word is logic.

I don't think he was particularly logical either.

I'm not after a specific 'thing' to show he's intelligent like... he's a blue monkey boy (Oh, Card, you scallywag). But rather - how do we know Spider-Man is agile in SPIDER-MAN? Because he does all that crazy swinging and jumping and ****. How do we know the Hulk is strong in HULK? Because he picks up a tank. How do we know Liam Neeson is an lethal killing machine? Because he kills everyone in TAKEN in seconds.

How do we know Spock is smart and logical? Because other characters say he is. How do we know Kirk is a legendary captain? Because other characters say he is.

Does you get my point? I want to see Spock's logical brilliance in the same way we're shown how strong Hulk is. People don't say, "that Hulk is really strong" but we only ever see him lift regular things. No. He picks up a TANK and that's that. I want to see Spock be logically brilliant - like he was before. I want to see Kirk be legendary and do amazing things, not have characters promise that 'he will be'.

If you think that because they're not physical elements, they can't be 'shown', think of this:

How do we know Batman is morally uncorruptable? Because Joker says so? No. Because he screams and tries to run the Joker over but swerves at the last minute and crashes, knocking himself out. Because when he throws Joker off a building to save himself, he immediately prevents the Joker from falling to his death.

Making someone physically more powerful than the writer is easy. But making them actually brilliant is so damn hard. That's why it's so rare.

Did anyone actually think Bruce Banner or Tony Stark in their respective films were smart? I felt they just knew big words.

Columbo.

He's smart. He doesn't just get given pieces of random information and then works them out or speak with big words or any of that. He walks onto a crime scene, notices one little thing out of place, then keeps pushing at the details until it leads to someone with means, motive, and opportunity, and then he sets out to prove all three by making the suspect reveal something only the killer could possibly know.

He's smart.

Does that explain what I'm after? :?

(Christ, I do go on, don't I?)

 

[E]

By contrived... I meant "hodge podge" it seems. We are using different terms for the same thing.

I don't think it's the same..."contrived" indicates it's more forced, in this case in the writing. I didn't think it was forced, personally.

how do we know Spider-Man is agile in SPIDER-MAN? Because he does all that crazy swinging and jumping and ****. How do we know the Hulk is strong in HULK? Because he picks up a tank. How do we know Liam Neeson is an lethal killing machine? Because he kills everyone in TAKEN in seconds.

That's kind of apples and oranges...those are obvious physical demonstrations for obvious physical traits.

Like I said before, I thought it could be excused that these kind of things weren't completely fleshed out because the point of this film - the first of at least 3 - was to show how the crew comes together with a focus on Kirk and Spock's relationship. I'm assuming that with these cards in place the kind of thing you're complaining about can be dealt with or explained in more detail. But I don't have a problem with accepting that Kirk is awesome or Spock is smart/logical without specific and detailed examples of this as long as nothing contridicts that.

Does you get my point? I want to see Spock's logical brilliance in the same way we're shown how strong Hulk is. People don't say, "that Hulk is really strong" but we only ever see him lift regular things. No. He picks up a TANK and that's that. I want to see Spock be logically brilliant - like he was before. I want to see Kirk be legendary and do amazing things, not have characters promise that 'he will be'.

I get your point, but I guess it's just that I look at it differently. I am seeing Spock be brilliant when I see that he is a high-ranking official in Star Fleet. I am seeing Kirk be legendary when I see a another leader in Star Fleet basically beg him to join. Never mind the examples he showed after the fact.

Did anyone actually think Bruce Banner or Tony Stark in their respective films were smart? I felt they just knew big words.

I *saw* Tony Stark build a super advanced robot suit and program it using another robot that he built and programmed. He seemed pretty smart to me.

(Christ, I do go on, don't I?)

It's all rubbish.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

I don't really see how they can go about showing how intelligent Spock is without it seeming, dare i say it, contrived. Maybe he should be doing sudoku's in the backgroud...i dunno. E brings up a good point, physical traits can be demonstrated easily enough. This whole debate seems a bit ridiculous to me however, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Bass]

I get your point, but I guess it's just that I look at it differently. I am seeing Spock be brilliant when I see that he is a high-ranking official in Star Fleet. I am seeing Kirk be legendary when I see a another leader in Star Fleet basically beg him to join. Never mind the examples he showed after the fact.

I *saw* Tony Stark build a super advanced robot suit and program it using another robot that he built and programmed. He seemed pretty smart to me.

Yeah... I just think it's really shallow characterization. :?

I don't really see how they can go about showing how intelligent Spock is without it seeming, dare i say it, contrived. Maybe he should be doing sudoku's in the backgroud...i dunno. E brings up a good point, physical traits can be demonstrated easily enough. This whole debate seems a bit ridiculous to me however, but that's neither here nor there.

It came about because there was two differing point of views: Kirk deserved the Enterprise vs Kirk's rise to Captaincy is preposterous. The argument revolves around whether Kirk was actually awesome or if the film just said he was.

Also, I think you can make the character smart without it being contrived.

[youtube]QXq9ElMX6BI[/youtube]

This, unfortunately, focuses more on Spock's pedantic nature than his intelligence, but you do see some of it. This was the best I could find. The amount of "Kirk and Spock to a romantic song" videos out there is staggering.

In any case, you can see how Spock is deductive in his observations. He actually takes the time to work things out and follow a simple, practical course of action.

The amazing thing was how often Spock was smart and wrong. THE GALILEO SEVEN is an episode built around the premise of Spock logically working things out and continually getting it wrong. They really did him well. Data, Dax, Seven, T'Pol, the new Spock... no one's got him right since then. It's really ****ing hard.

[youtube]leybGZjiqoE[/youtube]

And here's Columbo being awesome.

I don't think either are contrived, nor specific as to why they're smart. It just demonstrates someone's intellectual capacity without being shallow by having them 'invent' something miraculous or using big words or just turning out to be 'right'.

 

[Random]

It came about because there was two differing point of views: Kirk deserved the Enterprise vs Kirk's rise to Captaincy is preposterous. The argument revolves around whether Kirk was actually awesome or if the film just said he was.

I recall you asking if this would actually happen, a skillful persons takes command in a desperate situation and is award captaincy. Not having seen the movie and thus not knowing the specifics, I find it plausible that Command would give Kirk the title of Captain on a provisional basis. I'm sure a committee was held to determined how well he worked with the crew (why break up a team that works), interviewing everyone involved, and if the original capt and first officer are dead and if there are no one readily available to replace them. I'm sure they may allow him to be acting Captain for a while and after they are assured he's qualified make it official

And again, haven't seen the movie so can't be 100% on details.

It came about because there was two differing point of views: Kirk deserved the Enterprise vs Kirk's rise to Captaincy is preposterous. The argument revolves around whether Kirk was actually awesome or if the film just said he was.

Also, I think you can make the character smart without it being contrived.

[youtube]QXq9ElMX6BI[/youtube]

This, unfortunately, focuses more on Spock's pedantic nature than his intelligence, but you do see some of it. This was the best I could find. The amount of "Kirk and Spock to a romantic song" videos out there is staggering.

In any case, you can see how Spock is deductive in his observations. He actually takes the time to work things out and follow a simple, practical course of action.

The amazing thing was how often Spock was smart and wrong. THE GALILEO SEVEN is an episode built around the premise of Spock logically working things out and continually getting it wrong. They really did him well. Data, Dax, Seven, T'Pol, the new Spock... no one's got him right since then. It's really ****ing hard.

[youtube]leybGZjiqoE[/youtube]

And here's Columbo being awesome.

I don't think either are contrived, nor specific as to why they're smart. It just demonstrates someone's intellectual capacity without being shallow by having them 'invent' something miraculous or using big words or just turning out to be 'right'.

Yeah, it's tough to make an character who's more intelligent and set in certain ways likeable.

 

[E]

I find it plausible that Command would give Kirk the title of Captain on a provisional basis.

It didn't quite work like that. Spoilers follow.

What he was *given* was the first officer position, and Spock was simultaneously made captain by the existing captain. The exisitng captain was taken hostage, and Kirk played Spock to get him to admit he was emotionally compromised and therefore unfit to be captain. So Kirk manipulated his way into the captain position. Even though he did it with a tiny bit of help from older Spock, I think that demonstrates awesome-ness pretty well.

 

[Random]

It didn't quite work like that. Spoilers follow.

What he was *given* was the first officer position, and Spock was simultaneously made captain by the existing captain. The exisitng captain was taken hostage, and Kirk played Spock to get him to admit he was emotionally compromised and therefore unfit to be captain. So Kirk manipulated his way into the captain position. Even though he did it with a tiny bit of help from older Spock, I think that demonstrates awesome-ness pretty well.

Oh well if he was *appointed* (not sure what * means and I'd rather not) first officer than revealed to be more competent than Spock I find it much more plausible