Spider-Man 3 (discussion and spoilers)

Frankly, for me, one of the only redeeming parts of SM3 was Eddie Brock. Don't get me wrong; Venom sucked, but Eddie was great. If they want to take away my dreams of a Kingpin/Electro movie, then fine. But if we end up with a film that has both Brock and Cassady in it, then I want them both to be portrayed as deranged psychopaths. None of this "Venom is a misunderstood hero" garbage. If Cletus Cassady ended up being another "Sandman" archtype villain, I'd probably go crazy. These people are superpowered maniacs, and deserve to be treated as such.

I agree with you about venom and carnage.

Venom in third film was great and needs to stay like that BUT add more elements to it e.g his stalking like Bass mentioned.

Carnage needs to be as twisted an Psycotic as the Joker should in a batman movie.


I want a Spider-man movie with Kingpin (only if played by daredevil guy) and Electro (been saying him for 4 for along time)


I do how ever think Venom should help Spider-man but not in the harry way. During the fight I want the **** beat out of Spider-man. Then carnage and venom fight each other like they have a few times over who finishes Spider-man
 
If I were to cast someone for carnage, I'd go with nonother then Nur's pick

The crazy dude from scream matthew lillard
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I'm sure there are lot better actors but I can't think of them at the moment
 
If I were to cast someone for carnage, I'd go with nonother then Nur's pick

The crazy dude from scream matthew lillard
0000000will-1.jpg
I'm sure there are lot better actors but I can't think of them at the moment

I love that choice "Maaaaaaan."
 
Are you kidding? There will DEFINITELY be a Spider-Man 4, it might be a bit of a reboot, and there might be no Raimi, Maguire OR Dunst, but it's definitely going to happen.

I'm talking about this franchise. Spidey 4 won't be part of this franchise. Raimi, Maguire, and Dunst aren't coming back.

Even you're idea says right up front that you're talking about a reboot.
 
I'm talking about this franchise. Spidey 4 won't be part of this franchise. Raimi, Maguire, and Dunst aren't coming back.

Even you're idea says right up front that you're talking about a reboot.

With out Raimi, Maguire, and Dunst it would still count as part of the same franchise. Like james bond counts each time they get new bond and new director
 
Frankly, for me, one of the only redeeming parts of SM3 was Eddie Brock. Don't get me wrong; Venom sucked, but Eddie was great. If they want to take away my dreams of a Kingpin/Electro movie, then fine. But if we end up with a film that has both Brock and Cassady in it, then I want them both to be portrayed as deranged psychopaths. None of this "Venom is a misunderstood hero" garbage. If Cletus Cassady ended up being another "Sandman" archtype villain, I'd probably go crazy. These people are superpowered maniacs, and deserve to be treated as such.

I disagree, making every villain a superpowered maniac gets really old, really fast, it makes their personalities interchanable. Does anyone think Mr. Freeze was a good character before he got revamped into a sympathetic character by Bruce Timm? Sandman was just a thug with snad powers in the comics and that's kinda bland, so I don't fault raimi for trying to expand his character.

Besides what you are saying just proves that Carnage sucks, he is so one dimensional. All he is evil and they never really explain why he is evil. All he has going for him is shock value, take that away he has nothing. Plus Spidey shouldn't fight serial killers, that's just silly, he fights Electro one day and a serial killer the next? I hope Carnage never makes it to the silver screen.
 
I disagree, making every villain a superpowered maniac gets really old, really fast, it makes their personalities interchanable. Does anyone think Mr. Freeze was a good character before he got revamped into a sympathetic character by Bruce Timm? Sandman was just a thug with snad powers in the comics and that's kinda bland, so I don't fault raimi for trying to expand his character.

Besides what you are saying just proves that Carnage sucks, he is so one dimensional. All he is evil and they never really explain why he is evil. All he has going for him is shock value, take that away he has nothing. Plus Spidey shouldn't fight serial killers, that's just silly, he fights Electro one day and a serial killer the next? I hope Carnage never makes it to the silver screen.

Winner.
 
But why does every villain now-a-days need some sympathetic motivator? Sometimes I want to see a guy who's just insanely evil just for the sake of being evil. I felt like Eddie Brock failed with that, because he wasn't necessarily an evil guy before he got the costume; he certainly wasn't a nice person, but wasn't exactly a criminal type. Sometimes I just want someone who's irredeemably crazy evil, none of this "sympathetic back story" garbage.
 
But why does every villain now-a-days need some sympathetic motivator? Sometimes I want to see a guy who's just insanely evil just for the sake of being evil. I felt like Eddie Brock failed with that, because he wasn't necessarily an evil guy before he got the costume; he certainly wasn't a nice person, but wasn't exactly a criminal type. Sometimes I just want someone who's irredeemably crazy evil, none of this "sympathetic back story" garbage.

So go watch Superman Returns and shut up.:roll:

Lex is exactly what you're describing, and he sucked in SR. You're clamoring for something that would have this whole board screaming "OH NOES ONE-DIMENSIONAL!!!".
 
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But why does every villain now-a-days need some sympathetic motivator? Sometimes I want to see a guy who's just insanely evil just for the sake of being evil. I felt like Eddie Brock failed with that, because he wasn't necessarily an evil guy before he got the costume; he certainly wasn't a nice person, but wasn't exactly a criminal type. Sometimes I just want someone who's irredeemably crazy evil, none of this "sympathetic back story" garbage.

Not every villain needs to be sympathetic, but some do, to balance out all the pure evil villains. Green Goblin was not sympathetic in the first movie or any comics, because he works as a evil character, but if every villain in the Spider-man movies had same evil personality as Gobby, it would get really boring. I didn't mind that Brock was jerk in the film, because think Venom works best that way and all that lethal protector stuff is nonsense. However I can't fault Raimi for trying to make Sandman sympathetic, to have someone to balance out Venom's evil. You need a balance, some evil villains and some sympathetic villains, if you don't have a balance the villains quickly become boring and interchangible.
 
So go watch Superman Returns and shut up.:roll:

Lex is exactly what you're describing, and he sucked in SR. You're clamoring for something that would have this whole board screaming "OH NOES ONE-DIMENSIONAL!!!".
I agree with Wade, and I've already argued in favor of the jerk-villain before.

We're not saying sympathetic villains are bad. We're not saying the jerk-villain is BETTER than the sympathetic villain either. But not ALL villains HAVE to be sympathetic.

But just because you TAKE AWAY the sympathetic angle when you design or conceive or create a villain, it doesnt MEAN that the villain is ONE-DIMENSIONAL. There's such a thing as a bad villain-jerk and a good villain-jerk.

The bad villain-jerk is the one that just dances around and is bad for the sake of being bad with no real rhyme or reason, like Superman Returns' Lex Luthor. The good villain-jerk is the one who takes the circumstances handed to him and instead of transcending base desires and petty motivations, decides to kowtow to them.

I believe Brian Michael Bendis --- one of a pantheon of writers, good or bad, who tend to specialize in jerk villains (another noteable jerk-villain creator is Warren Ellis) --- wrote a scene in the very first issue of Powers saying that "Anybody can keep their **** together on the good days. But it's the bad days that you really show people what you're made of."

This to me is the core essence of jerk-villains like Movie Eddie Brock and Ultimate Goblin and Planetary's "Four".

Eddie Brock was humiliated, supposedly orphaned, brought up by lousy foster parents --- He COULD'VE been sympathetic because of all thsoe things, but he acted in a manner to NOT invite sympathy. It's like okay, fine, you had a ****ty childhood, but you know what, that doesn't excuse you being a jerk. A ****ty childhood is not an excuse because thousands of famous, rich, powerful, noble, courageous people TRANSCENDED that kind of crap, so acting like a jerk doesn't make you deserving of ANY better.

Ultimate Goblin, Doom and Annihilus? They had large amounts of money, status and/or power, but instead of using that stuff to do better for people --- to make the world around them a BETTER place --- they decided to just act like asstards by trying to accumulate more money status and power, just CAUSE. Because "crazy and greedy is always looking for reasons to be crazy and greedy."

The superhero is defined by TWO things: a) transcending tragedy to rise above it, to keep his **** together in spite of the horrible circumstances thrown at him, and b) using the fortune bestowed upon him --- wealth, superpower, ancient artifacts, intelligence, mystical talent --- to make the world a better place. For finer worlds, and all that.

Supervillains are the opposite because they take their tragedy, and use it as a license to act like jerks because they're telling themselves they 'deserve better' and when fortune gives them power, they go ah, this is what i deserve and now they have license to act like elitist SUPER-jerks as retribution for the tragedies and indignities they may have suffered.

Being a jerk is not one-dimensional, inferior or shallower than the sophisticated super-villain.

And on that note, Superman Returns' Lex Luthor FAILED not only as the sophisticate super villain, but as a jerk villain because he had no motivation. Singer almost sounded like he wanted to give him one, as there're hints of the Luthor psychology from Azzarello's Lex Luthor: Man of Stee --- Luthor as secular humanist --- but it's all teases that don't go anywhere.
 
Besides what you are saying just proves that Carnage sucks, he is so one dimensional. All he is evil and they never really explain why he is evil. All he has going for him is shock value, take that away he has nothing. Plus Spidey shouldn't fight serial killers, that's just silly, he fights Electro one day and a serial killer the next? I hope Carnage never makes it to the silver screen.

But in fairness to Carnage he can be cool if handled well. Maximum Carnage = Sucks. Carnage as a sick psychopath serial killer who kills for fun is basically the Joker from batman with a red version of the venom suit on.

Would you say the joker was a bad character? I sure as hell wouldn't.


So go watch Superman Returns and shut up.:roll:

Lex is exactly what you're describing, and he sucked in SR. You're clamoring for something that would have this whole board screaming "OH NOES ONE-DIMENSIONAL!!!".

:lol: :lol:
 
Carnage does not equal joker. But I do think he would look badass on screen.
 
Carnage does not equal joker. But I do think he would look badass on screen.

No the joker is better but I mean he is a very similar character as shown in "Spider-man/Batman" written by J.M. DeMatteis (great story by the way). They have very similar personalities
 
What I was trying to say, Planet-man, is that I'm getting really bored of these "Villains who aren't really villains". I would further describe this, but Ourchair seems to have already done that for me.
 
I agree with Wade, and I've already argued in favor of the jerk-villain before.

We're not saying sympathetic villains are bad. We're not saying the jerk-villain is BETTER than the sympathetic villain either. But not ALL villains HAVE to be sympathetic.

But just because you TAKE AWAY the sympathetic angle when you design or conceive or create a villain, it doesnt MEAN that the villain is ONE-DIMENSIONAL. There's such a thing as a bad villain-jerk and a good villain-jerk.

The bad villain-jerk is the one that just dances around and is bad for the sake of being bad with no real rhyme or reason, like Superman Returns' Lex Luthor. The good villain-jerk is the one who takes the circumstances handed to him and instead of transcending base desires and petty motivations, decides to kowtow to them.

I believe Brian Michael Bendis --- one of a pantheon of writers, good or bad, who tend to specialize in jerk villains (another noteable jerk-villain creator is Warren Ellis) --- wrote a scene in the very first issue of Powers saying that "Anybody can keep their **** together on the good days. But it's the bad days that you really show people what you're made of."

This to me is the core essence of jerk-villains like Movie Eddie Brock and Ultimate Goblin and Planetary's "Four".

Eddie Brock was humiliated, supposedly orphaned, brought up by lousy foster parents --- He COULD'VE been sympathetic because of all thsoe things, but he acted in a manner to NOT invite sympathy. It's like okay, fine, you had a ****ty childhood, but you know what, that doesn't excuse you being a jerk. A ****ty childhood is not an excuse because thousands of famous, rich, powerful, noble, courageous people TRANSCENDED that kind of crap, so acting like a jerk doesn't make you deserving of ANY better.

Ultimate Goblin, Doom and Annihilus? They had large amounts of money, status and/or power, but instead of using that stuff to do better for people --- to make the world around them a BETTER place --- they decided to just act like asstards by trying to accumulate more money status and power, just CAUSE. Because "crazy and greedy is always looking for reasons to be crazy and greedy."

The superhero is defined by TWO things: a) transcending tragedy to rise above it, to keep his **** together in spite of the horrible circumstances thrown at him, and b) using the fortune bestowed upon him --- wealth, superpower, ancient artifacts, intelligence, mystical talent --- to make the world a better place. For finer worlds, and all that.

Supervillains are the opposite because they take their tragedy, and use it as a license to act like jerks because they're telling themselves they 'deserve better' and when fortune gives them power, they go ah, this is what i deserve and now they have license to act like elitist SUPER-jerks as retribution for the tragedies and indignities they may have suffered.

Being a jerk is not one-dimensional, inferior or shallower than the sophisticated super-villain.

And on that note, Superman Returns' Lex Luthor FAILED not only as the sophisticate super villain, but as a jerk villain because he had no motivation. Singer almost sounded like he wanted to give him one, as there're hints of the Luthor psychology from Azzarello's Lex Luthor: Man of Stee --- Luthor as secular humanist --- but it's all teases that don't go anywhere.

The problem is make every villain a jerk, than all the villains have interchangible personalities. seriously what personality differences do some of these jerk villains have? Frankly almost all the villains in the Ultimate Universe have sasme personality, that's why they are boring. Why should every villain have the same personality? There should be a balance, some villains should be evil and some should be sympathetic, not every villain needs to pure evil and not every villain needs to be sympathetic, but you do need a balance or things really boring really fast.

Venom was evil in the film and I had no problem with that, but why not make Sandman sympathetic to balance the evil of Venom? Again what's wrong with a little balance?

But in fairness to Carnage he can be cool if handled well. Maximum Carnage = Sucks. Carnage as a sick psychopath serial killer who kills for fun is basically the Joker from batman with a red version of the venom suit on.

Would you say the joker was a bad character? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Joker is a good character, Carnage is nothing more than a lame Joker knock off. Joker is a genius, Carnage is a moron, Joker has a flare for the dramatic, Carnage is a thug. Seriously Joker kills people in a manner that leaves no doubt as to who the murderer is, Carnage rips people up, a guy with a butcher knife could do that. Plus there is more to Joker's character than just being a killing machine (though some people have forgotten). Joker engages in bizzare schmemes to prove insane points that make no sesne to anyone but himself, like the Joker Fish storyline. When has Carnage done anything besides rip people up? Every Carnage storyline is the same, he goes around ripping up crowds of people. God, he is so boring. Plus it makes sense that Batman fights serial killers, but Spidey fighting serial killers, that's just silly.

No the joker is better but I mean he is a very similar character as shown in "Spider-man/Batman" written by J.M. DeMatteis (great story by the way). They have very similar personalities

Did you read the story? Joker called Carnage an uncreative hack, the David Cassidy of serial killers in that story. Joker was explaining why he is a much character than Carnage and he was right.
 
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