Lost *spoilers*

[Planet-man]

The episode was great in and of itself as an episode of the show, and season finale and I guess a series finale.

The fact that they ended the show without explaining so many huge, unforgivable things is not. Whatever about the whispers.... I mean, holy ****..... the show's over and the Numbers didn't even get mentioned?! The Taweret statue? The island itself?

My favourite part plot-wise was the way they made the whole Incident/Closed Time Loop situation make sense now, because of what the Flashes Sideways were.

A personal detail I would've changed for effect would've been after Jack hits Smocke and he bleeds, have him go a bit smokey for a second and then turn into Titus Welliver for the rest of his screen time. Watching Jack fight that figure from the past would've been so cool and more epic, IMO.

But whatever. I really enjoyed the episode itself, but in no way did the series ever live up to mountains of promise from the first few seasons because they simply didn't have enough of a plan, and that was wrong of them. I'm not looking forward to half-heartedly defending it against people who are already posting "WORST FINALE EVER! TOTAL ****!" in their newsfeeds any more than I am to half-heartedly knocking it if people think it was perfect.

It was vintage Lost in many ways, and I teared up a bit here and there(Claire and Charlie in particular), but I'm just thinking back now to how utterly powerful the ending of "Exodus Part I" was and wishing this could've reached that.

 

[ProjectX2]

A personal detail I would've changed for effect would've been after Jack hits Smocke and he bleeds, have him go a bit smokey for a second and then turn into Titus Welliver for the rest of his screen time. Watching Jack fight that figure from the past would've been so cool and more epic, IMO.

Yes! Jack facing off against the smoke monster would have been epic and I was disappointed we didn't see it. The only other thing that disappointed me that I can remember is that Jack and Ben never talked to each other.

Jack and Locke running at each other in a storm on a mountain that was falling apart was awesome!

Michael Giacchino ****ing owned that finale too.

That Jimmy Kimmel Lost thing was pretty good too. Seeing all the actors having a laugh after all this intense stuff was kind of scary. The alternate endings were amusing too - they were all parodies of Survivor, Sopranos and Newhart.

 

[Goodwill]

I liked the episode. Very much so, too. Bittersweet, confusing, but every moment exemplified what Lost is and was. The ending is probably going to be controversial, but I could not think of a more suitable way to close the series out. Seeing much of the original cast and being reminded of the moments on this show that got you addicted to it in the first place was awesome.

I was as fan of how all of it played out on island, too... Jack dying and lying down where he originally landed was a great last image. Especially him smiling.

Hurley and Ben forming the unlikely partnership was a good alternative to just Jack leading, being the typical leader. I thought Hurley would have made a great protector.

All in all, a very suitable end to this show and I will miss it terribly.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Very satisfied with the ending and the explanation of the flash-sideways universe, which I suppose is their own personal heaven. Amazing that the most obvious answer kept eluding us.

I loved Hurley and Ben... That was perfect.

I think they answered the answers they needed to... I wouldn't have wanted a convuluted explanation of the statue shoved into this episode. The whispers HAVE been answered, and even more so by the fact that the flash-sideways verse was LITERALLY their spirits lingering on the island.

It wasn't perfect... I'm sure there will be better potential endings discussed for years... But it was satisfying and moving, and resolved the show for me in its entirety.

This definitely was the ending of the series I've watched now for six years. And it felt like it.

 

[Planet-man]

I think the answering of the whispers, given the way they were used throughout the series(especially the first couple seasons), is still not entirely satisfactory, although since they made an effort and combined with what the flashes sideways were, I can let it slide. But the statue, Walt's power, the curse of the numbers, etc were things they crafted specifically to be fascinating mysteries. Finding out that that's ALL they crafted them to be is disappointing. The show's shallower than I was deliberately lead to believe.

These aren't problems with the finale. It was pretty great. They're problems with the series that are real now because the finale has happened. I don't think they should've shoehorned explanations in the last 2 1/2 hours or anything.

Edit: George Lucas' letter to Lindelof and Cuse.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

If anything, this episode stressed just how unimportant the reoccurring mythology motifs were. The whispers and numbers are hardly even a factor. I've explained so many times why answers, explanations and a clearly defined backdrop are contrary to the entire notion of LOST that I'm just tired of it. It's a show about character interactions, and the finale hammered this point home, with an entirely comprehensive final statement on this aspect. I think that framing a show with deliberately surreal and unexplainable Sci Fi strangeness just helped exemplify the situation that the characters were in, working to accentuate certain points of the narrative. It's hardly implicative of shallowness. The producers have said numerous times that it's meant to be a show along the lines of Twin Peaks, where questions are raised that you have to answer for yourself. Theorizing, thinking and discussing is the whole point.

The only real problem I had with the finale was Jack's fight with MiB. I thought that was anticlimactic and poorly staged. Otherwise, it was great.

 

[Planet-man]

If anything, this episode stressed just how unimportant the reoccurring mythology motifs were.

To some people.

The whispers and numbers are hardly even a factor. I've explained so many times why answers, explanations and a clearly defined backdrop are contrary to the entire notion of LOST that I'm just tired of it. It's a show about character interactions, and the finale hammered this point home, with an entirely comprehensive final statement on this aspect. I think that framing a show with deliberately surreal and unexplainable Sci Fi strangeness just helped exemplify the situation that the characters were in, working to accentuate certain points of the narrative. It's hardly implicative of shallowness. The producers have said numerous times that it's meant to be a show along the lines of Twin Peaks, where questions are raised that you have to answer for yourself. Theorizing, thinking and discussing is the whole point.

I'm sorry, but to me(and legions), it's a show about both. The character stuff is MORE important, but it's not the whole thing. If things like the statue and the numbers weren't important enough to resolve, they shouldn't have made huge cryptic moments out of them, which probably accumulate to hours over the course of the series, in the first place.

Saying the show isn't about answers simply because they didn't answer a bunch of these in the end isn't accurate either. It's been packed with answers since the beginning, and they've been some of the series' pivotal moments. Locke's experience with the Hatch was more about his struggles with faith than the contents of a mysterious chamber, but they still opened it and it was a HUGE deal. "The Incident" they dropped tidbits around for years was also explained in a big way, the whole Dharma initiative too, Yemi's plane, the donkey wheel, etc. If theorizing and making stuff up for yourself is "the whole point", why didn't they let us with so many things? It adds up to them answering the things they could think of and not answering the stuff they couldn't.

When something appears to be really cool, or meaningful or complex on the surface, but is ultimately has nothing underneath, that to me means shallow.

 

[mike3717]

Meh. It was ok. I was actually kinda disappointed. I would have liked some explanation of the island more. Especially the time travel aspect. But that was all discarded. It seems the whole island mythology was pretty much just dumped. And the sideways world seemed like a season long waste of time since it turned out to just be them all dead IMO.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

To some people.



I'm sorry, but to me(and legions), it's a show about both. The character stuff is MORE important, but it's not the whole thing. If things like the statue and the numbers weren't important enough to resolve, they shouldn't have made huge cryptic moments out of them, which probably accumulate to hours over the course of the series, in the first place.

Saying the show isn't about answers simply because they didn't answer a bunch of these in the end isn't accurate either. It's been packed with answers since the beginning, and they've been some of the series' pivotal moments. Locke's experience with the Hatch was more about his struggles with faith than the contents of a mysterious chamber, but they still opened it and it was a HUGE deal. "The Incident" they dropped tidbits around for years was also explained in a big way, the whole Dharma initiative too, Yemi's plane, the donkey wheel, etc. If theorizing and making stuff up for yourself is "the whole point", why didn't they let us with so many things? It adds up to them answering the things they could think of and not answering the stuff they couldn't.

When something appears to be really cool, or meaningful or complex on the surface, but is ultimately has nothing underneath, that to me means shallow.

It's a framing mechanism. As simple as that. Some parts are elaborated on more than others to direct the story in a certain direction, but it's still just a method for exploring the characters; the world that they live in is full of intrigue, but not all of it requires an explanation. For all intents and purposes, the narrative is just a binding framework to examine the characters, but for it to remain interesting as a literary mechanism, sometimes it needed to be explored. And it was. We found out about The Others, the DHARMA Initiative and even a lot about the nature of the island (contrary to popular notions that this was never expanded upon). Regardless of how the story moved, though, there were a lot of peripheral elements that were introduced just for the sake of building an atmosphere. You and I argued before about whether or not the whispers count as this.

I think that what we have, instead, is a nebulously defined show, with almost nothing having been handed to us on a silver platter. The aforementioned story elements may have been explained, but a majority of the show's myth arc remains unexplored, merely hinted at. For me, that's much more interesting, given the backdrop that we're working within. So, yeah, the whispers are the ghosts of the island. You can take that literally, and find it disappointing, but for the sake of argument, think about what that implies in the wake of the finale. These are the people who were unable to move on. Who remained on the island, rather than convening in the Sideways universe, still desperate for meaning. I'd imagine that the deceased primarily consisted of Others before the Losties' crash, so it'd make sense for whispers to be isolated to their presence. The dead are still watching over their friends. That's more than an adequate explanation for me.

I'm not really sure what you were expecting. I realize that the show isn't perfect, and there's plenty that I'm unhappy with in retrospect. But I think that as a complete entity, it worked. The finale provided enough literary symmetry for me to feel content.

 

[Planet-man]

It's a framing mechanism. As simple as that.

I disagree it was ever that simple.

Some parts are elaborated on more than others to direct the story in a certain direction, but it's still just a method for exploring the characters; the world that they live in is full of intrigue, but not all of it requires an explanation.

For the umpteenth, I'm not saying all of it did.

For all intents and purposes, the narrative is just a binding framework to examine the characters, but for it to remain interesting as a literary mechanism, sometimes it needed to be explored. And it was. We found out about The Others, the DHARMA Initiative and even a lot about the nature of the island (contrary to popular notions that this was never expanded upon). Regardless of how the story moved, though, there were a lot of peripheral elements that were introduced just for the sake of building an atmosphere. You and I argued before about whether or not the whispers count as this.

In my opinion, introducing elements just to build atmosphere is okay, but pretending elements have complex meanings just to build atmosphere is not.

I think that what we have, instead, is a nebulously defined show, with almost nothing having been handed to us on a silver platter. The aforementioned story elements may have been explained, but a majority of the show's myth arc remains unexplored, merely hinted at. For me, that's much more interesting, given the backdrop that we're working within.

I truly agree with this concept in general, but I don't think it was used properly here.

For me, digging up puzzle pieces is interesting if I think there actually IS a whole puzzle for me to put together. I don't think there is here. I don't have reason to believe the writers know who really built Taweret, or why the Smoke sounds like a subway, or why the "Underworld" timer tiles were there other than to keep viewers watching, or how those three things are in any way connected. It doesn't interest me to look for meaning in something meaningless.

So, yeah, the whispers are the ghosts of the island. You can take that literally, and find it disappointing, but for the sake of argument, think about what that implies in the wake of the finale. These are the people who were unable to move on. Who remained on the island, rather than convening in the Sideways universe, still desperate for meaning. I'd imagine that the deceased primarily consisted of Others before the Losties' crash, so it'd make sense for whispers to be isolated to their presence. The dead are still watching over their friends. That's more than an adequate explanation for me.

As I said a few posts back, the revelations about the Flashes Sideways did make the Whispers more satisfying. I'm past that.

I'm not really sure what you were expecting. I realize that the show isn't perfect, and there's plenty that I'm unhappy with in retrospect. But I think that as a complete entity, it worked. The finale provided enough literary symmetry for me to feel content.

Simply, I was expecting(or hoping for) the unparalleled blend of incredible character moments AND incredible answers that the show, especially the finales, used to be made of. As a season finale I got that, but as a series one, not so much. I was expecting something as moving and satisfying as Exodus. To me, the show really was perfect back then.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

For me, digging up puzzle pieces is interesting if I think there actually IS a whole puzzle for me to put together. I don't think there is here. I don't have reason to believe the writers know who really built Taweret, or why the Smoke sounds like a subway, or why the "Underworld" timer tiles were there other than to keep viewers watching, or how those three things are in any way connected. It doesn't interest me to look for meaning in something meaningless.

I think that some of the more literary elements of the show are more difficult to argue, and we're just going in circles.

On the other hand, I do think that your point here can be easily addressed, because most of LOST's puzzles aren't meaningless. If you take a close look at Across The Sea, you'll notice that most of the reoccurring objects that are featured tend to be Ancient Egyptian in origin (the weaving loom, the proto-backgammon board, etc.), and if I'm up on my Egyptology, they date back to Egypt's Old Kingdom era, the same as most of the other Egyptian motifs we've seen in the series, including Tawaret. It's been awhile since I took an Ancient History class (and maybe it's time I Wiki'd this to be sure), but I think that this sort of qualifies the notion that it was Mother's people who were responsible for these things.

The Smoke Monster sounds like a subway because it's a cool sounding, menacing sound effect. Does it need to be more than that? It's like whether or not rat's can have constants. To me it's such a minute point that it could not conceivably effect my viewing experience. Same with the "Underworld" timer in the Hatch, which just appeared to be a (albeit strange) warning sign if the electromagnetic regulation failed. Whether or not these were designed to keep people watching seems a moot concern.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I don't know if I'm more annoyed with just the Sideways ending or if I'm even annoyed with the regular island ending at all. The Sideways universe was a huge waste of time. They introduced purgatory, a concept that people have guessed at since day 1, in the final season? And the island is a completely separate game, correct? So Hurley and Ben are on the island protecting the source? One of my friends was trying to tell me none of the island stuff happened it was in Jack's head from the 45 seconds it took him to die since he first crashed. He's wearing different clothes though. I mean I'll be happy with the ending cause it just leaves the island stuff way open with Hurley and Ben sitting there and there's no way Ben wouldn't be the antagonist for the next chapter unless they twisted it so that Hurley was or introduced a new one altogether. I mean the possibilities are endless... But the sideways ending was pointless, Jimmy Kimmel's "Alternate Endings" were hilarious but when I realized that was it made my wasted self even more angry, but that final scene was perfect.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I mean just let the island sink. There's no more evil to contain anyway with FLocke dead. Wouldn't it be safer underwater anyway?

It didn't make any sense though in the sideways universe. All those people weren't dead. Kate, Sawyer, Alpert, Lapidus, Miles, Rose and Bernard, Hurley, and Ben are all still alive.

 

[thee great one]

I would of rather the alternate universe be a alternate universe then heaven, where they all get 2nd chances.

Also I didn't like how Kate saved Jack from Flocke.

 

[Planet-man]

I think that some of the more literary elements of the show are more difficult to argue, and we're just going in circles.

On the other hand, I do think that your point here can be easily addressed, because most of LOST's puzzles aren't meaningless. If you take a close look at Across The Sea, you'll notice that most of the reoccurring objects that are featured tend to be Ancient Egyptian in origin (the weaving loom, the proto-backgammon board, etc.), and if I'm up on my Egyptology, they date back to Egypt's Old Kingdom era, the same as most of the other Egyptian motifs we've seen in the series, including Tawaret. It's been awhile since I took an Ancient History class (and maybe it's time I Wiki'd this to be sure), but I think that this sort of qualifies the notion that it was Mother's people who were responsible for these things.

I understand that it's all Egyptian, but after the finale I don't think they had a reason to ingrain all that stuff other than "Egyptian mythology is cool". How and why would any of it be on the island, how and why did the islanders build the largest statue in human history, etc? I don't think the writers know themselves, so for me, there's nothing to look for.

The Smoke Monster sounds like a subway because it's a cool sounding, menacing sound effect.

Same with the "Underworld" timer in the Hatch, which just appeared to be a (albeit strange) warning sign if the electromagnetic regulation failed.

There are millions of menacing sounds they could've used, but for some reason they chose an identifiable mechanical noise from a thousand years later on the other side of the planet, because it's something bizarre and specific enough to make fans speculate like crazy. They shouldn't do that with things that are meaningless.

Et all.

Whether or not these were designed to keep people watching seems a moot concern.

Why dismiss that as ever being a moot concern for television writers?

 

[Planet-man]

It didn't make any sense though in the sideways universe. All those people weren't dead. Kate, Sawyer, Alpert, Lapidus, Miles, Rose and Bernard, Hurley, and Ben are all still alive.

As Christian explained, some of them died "many years later". There's no "when" there.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

I don't know whether the writers actually thought all of this through. They say that they did. Even if they didn't, I think that with postmodern concepts like "the death of the author" allows for inference to trump implication. I've been arguing specific points with people all day in circles; if you can't reconcile certain elements for yourself, then I doubt I (or anyone else) will be able to change your mind.

For the most part, I really enjoyed the structure of the show. The finale is no exception.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

As Christian explained, some of them died "many years later". There's no "when" there.

Right. All right. Not too bad then. Still would love to see the rest of their stories though.

And really wished if they went with that concept that EVERYONE was present. Walt, Michael, Eko, etc... It seems like it was a cliquey thing to do to "move on" without certain characters. I mean if there's no concept of time then why wouldn't Aaron and Jin and Sun's kid be there? And Peggy Bundy for Locke?

 

[Planet-man]

Death of the author doesn't preclude there being a meaning in the first place they died before revealing.

Anyway, my opinion is that Lost is a framework, make-it-up-for-yourself show deliberately disguised as a creators-know-it-all MythArc show, that I grew to love as the latter and was disappointed when it fell back into the former. Textbook Chris Carter effect. It was at its best when they could come up with brilliant answers to their questions, and at its worst when they tried to and failed. I will just always be grateful that during all of it, they outclassed almost anything I've ever seen on television in characterization, catharsis, acting, music, atmosphere and overall art.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

Death of the author doesn't preclude there being a meaning in the first place they died before revealing.

What? Death of the Author has nothing to do with actual, literal death or revelation. I just meant to say that the division of interpretation/intention can go either way, depending on your view. A lot of peoples' opinions hinge on the dichotomy created by this concept.

Anyway, my opinion is that Lost is a framework, make-it-up-for-yourself show deliberately disguised as a creators-know-it-all MythArc show, that I grew to love as the latter and was disappointed when it fell back into the former. Textbook Chris Carter effect. It was at its best when they could come up with brilliant answers to their questions, and at its worst when they tried to and failed. I will just always be grateful that during all of it, they outclassed almost anything I've ever seen on television in characterization, catharsis, acting, music, atmosphere and overall art.

I don't know what the, uh, "Chris Carter effect" is, but I don't really think that LOST exists entirely within either of your proposed archetypes. Regardless, I do agree, at the very least, that the production of the show was stellar, regardless of our disagreements on the writing.