Lost *spoilers*

[Captain Canuck]

Anyway, I think the writers were trying to make it out to be that Jack was primarily responsible for having Ben become who he now is. Had he helped him, there would have been a good chance that he would have turned out alright... But because he didn't, Kate and Sawyer had no other choice than to give him up to the Others.

right, b/c this episode is called "whatever happened, happened"

so Jack doesn't want to help Ben b/c he's going to grow up to be manipulative Ben, but by not helping him he made it happen.

the part with Miles and Hurley was awesome, especially in light of the debate we had in this thread last week about Ben remembering Sayid. "....hmmm...I hadn't thought of that?" hahahaha

And also... any significance of Ben wanting Hurley, Jack, Kate and Sawyer at the end of Season 2? They're the Dharma Days people, so... significance?

i've been wondering the same thing.
I really hope Ben does remember...the memory wipe would be a dumb cop out

i've also been wondering if this "loss of innocence, he'll always be one of us" thing is some how related to "the sickness" that made Danielle's crew turn against her when they went down the cerebrus vent. I know they went down the hole and Richard and Ben went in a door, but it kind of looked like the same building to me (is it the temple? Danielle's boyfriend says the smoke doesn'tguard the island, it guards the temple)

one more thing. Did you catch the song Kate was singing to Aaron when she went to see Clementine's mother for the first time? "Catch a falling star" When Claire was going to give Aaron up for adoption in season one, she asked the couple to sing that song to him (this is the scene where she's going to sign the papers and a bunch of pens don't work and she runs out of the room and says, "I'm sorry, I can't do this!") I wonder if that's another reference to "The Little Prince"

 

[Goodwill]

It's important to note that Ben does return to the DHARMA Initiative. My brother thought that Ben was gone from them, but we know that he returns and becomes a Janitor himself for a time.

 

[robje]

I didnt like this episode as much as most others this season, mainly because it seemed like they put to much emphasis on the "will Ben survive?" question. Which was silly because there was absolutely no way the writers could get away with killing him. That was the first thing everybody said after Sayid shot him in the chest instead of the head (profesional killer, my ***). If they wanted to kill him they would have done so right there.

After reading through the thread I saw some interesting things I had missed. Might have to go back and rewatch it.

so Jack doesn't want to help Ben b/c he's going to grow up to be manipulative Ben, but by not helping him he made it happen.

Exept they made it quite clear that they can't change the past. So even if Jack HAD gone to help Ben, it still would have turned out like this. So Jack isnt guilty of making Ben evil. He just correctly refused so waste energy on something he couldnt affect.

i've also been wondering if this "loss of innocence, he'll always be one of us" thing is some how related to "the sickness" that made Danielle's crew turn against her when they went down the cerebrus vent. I know they went down the hole and Richard and Ben went in a door, but it kind of looked like the same building to me (is it the temple? Danielle's boyfriend says the smoke doesn'tguard the island, it guards the temple)

That was the Temple yeah. And I realy like the idea of the loss of innocence being related to the sickness.

Also, the "Loss of innocence" line got a lot of laughs out of my friends last night. Especially because it was about a 12 year old boy.

Same thing happend with us. Especially after Richard passionately hunched over the uncontious Ben just before they entered the temple. We really thought he was going to kiss him.

 

[Sacred&Profane]

On the note of Sayid not administering a fatal kill shot-
Professional killer or not, he's never been a remorseless killer. Even if that is what we saw him accept as his nature, he was still shooting a ten year old boy who was extraordinarily kind to him, going so far as to save his life.

Ben Linus or not, it was still (and we can see it on his face when he does) a monumentally difficult thing for Sayid to do.

 

[DIrishB]

Spoiler

According to IMDB, we have not yet seen the younger Eloise Hawking... They've cast someone else as her.

I'm calling a screw-up on IMDB's part (incorrect info posted by some random person) or a red herring. Mainly because having two characters named Elle and Eloise is unnecessarily confusing, and Elle (the girl from the 50's "Jughead" episode) certainly seems likely to grow old and become Eloise. She has certain knowledge of the island, realizes time travel is possible (or suspects, anyway), etc.

As far as I can tell, its the same woman.

On the note of Sayid not administering a fatal kill shot-
Professional killer or not, he's never been a remorseless killer. Even if that is what we saw him accept as his nature, he was still shooting a ten year old boy who was extraordinarily kind to him, going so far as to save his life.

Ben Linus or not, it was still (and we can see it on his face when he does) a monumentally difficult thing for Sayid to do.

Very good point.

 

[Random]

That was the first thing everybody said after Sayid shot him in the chest instead of the head (profesional killer, my ***). If they wanted to kill him they would have done so right there.

Pros only go for a head shot at point blank range, at the distance Sayid was, using a hand gun with one hand, no pro would aim at the head, way to easy to miss. Though a pro would shoot at least three times in the chest, but as stated Sayid is a remorseful killer.

How do I know this *cocs gun* do you really want to know?

 

[Captain Canuck]

Exept they made it quite clear that they can't change the past. So even if Jack HAD gone to help Ben, it still would have turned out like this. So Jack isnt guilty of making Ben evil. He just correctly refused so waste energy on something he couldnt affect.

but that's the irony

Jack didn't want to save him b/c he knew he would grow up to be "evil" Ben, and he figured that he couldn't change anything anyway, but Ben became "evil" b/c they had to take them to the others to save his life, so while it isn't Jack's fault that Ben is "evil", Ben is "evil" b/c destiny prevented Jack from helping.

But I guess we've seen from previous episodes that even if Jack had intervened and saved his life something else would have happened later to make Ben become "evil"

so i see your point.

"No matter, what I do Ben, you're going to be 'evil'" [\Scottish accent]

 

[Planet-man]

"No matter, what I do Ben, you're going to be 'evil'" [\Scottish accent]

 

[Captain Canuck]

exactly

 

[Goodwill]

According to IMDB, Matthew Perry (Chandler from Friends) will be in this season's finale.

I think this would've been better timed if it were posted LAST Wednesday.

 

[Random]

I had a feeling the next Ben episode would be great and god damn it was spectacular. Ben is an amazing actor, the use of the monster was great. I know most people here like the all knowing all controlling Ben, but I really don't. The idea that he has been manipulating every little thing as part of an continually growing scheme is very stale. He is so much more compelling as a man who is obsessed at controlling everyone and loses that control. It's just the role reversal theme that provide such great new character development. Sawyer the scrounger becomes the provider, Jack the leader becomes a pacifist, Juliet who hates the island doesn't want her life on it to change, Locke the unsure follower of faith is now the leader of it.

Also I love that Locke has a subconscious knowledge of the island, he has a new sense of purpose and it's just great for him to get that validation after 4 and a half seasons of struggle. I'm also so ****ing relieved that Penny is alive, ever since 316 when Ben says "I have to keep a promise to an old friend" I've been nervous. Desmond and Penny are one of the couples that actually deserve a happy ending.

 

[DIrishB]

According to IMDB, Matthew Perry (Chandler from Friends) will be in this season's finale.

I think this would've been better timed if it were posted LAST Wednesday.

As long as Ross and the monkey don't show up, I'm fine with it. Well, ok, the monkey can come, but keep Schwimmer the **** out of the party.

Surprising casting, though. Well, not really, I suppose. I just never would've assumed I'd see Perry on Lost. Course, a couple years ago, I'd've said the same about Jeff Fahey.


I enjoyed tonight's episode. Loved the role-reversal of Locke and Ben, and how it played out. Also liked that we saw the smoke monster as Alex and its--and presumably the island's--warning to Ben to leave John Locke alone. Wonder how thats going to turn out. :wink:

Also nice to see the explanation of Ben's injuries. It was kind of obvious it tied into Desmond and Penny, but I'm glad they were at least granted a temporary reprieve. Or is the island done with Desmond now? I doubt it.

Overall, while I enjoyed the episode and interplay between Locke and Ben, I don't think enough happened. I did enjoy the whole plane survivors finding guns and taking control through them angle. There's something more going on there than just a power grab, though it simply tying into Widmore just seems too obvious. I also enjoyed the episodes explanation for Widmore's banishment and his and Ben's bitter feud.

Speaking of which, when are we going to get an explanation on Libby? Is that still supposed to happen? Goodwill, I'm looking at you, since I know you're very informed. Help me out.

I had a feeling the next Ben episode would be great and god damn it was spectacular. Ben is an amazing actor, the use of the monster was great. I know most people here like the all knowing all controlling Ben, but I really don't. The idea that he has been manipulating every little thing as part of an continually growing scheme is very stale. He is so much more compelling as a man who is obsessed at controlling everyone and loses that control. It's just the role reversal theme that provide such great new character development. Sawyer the scrounger becomes the provider, Jack the leader becomes a pacifist, Juliet who hates the island doesn't want her life on it to change, Locke the unsure follower of faith is now the leader of it.

Also I love that Locke has a subconscious knowledge of the island, he has a new sense of purpose and it's just great for him to get that validation after 4 and a half seasons of struggle. I'm also so ****ing relieved that Penny is alive, ever since 316 when Ben says "I have to keep a promise to an old friend" I've been nervous. Desmond and Penny are one of the couples that actually deserve a happy ending.

Completely agree.

 

[Random]

Overall, while I enjoyed the episode and interplay between Locke and Ben, I don't think enough happened. I did enjoy the whole plane survivors finding guns and taking control through them angle. There's something more going on there than just a power grab, though it simply tying into Widmore just seems too obvious. I also enjoyed the episodes explanation for Widmore's banishment and his and Ben's bitter feud.

I think the 316's just got hit with the sickness

Speaking of which, when are we going to get an explanation on Libby? Is that still supposed to happen? Goodwill, I'm looking at you, since I know you're very informed. Help me out.

The creators have been fickled on that. They've once said Libby's story isn't done but has recently said it is done. But I know we will see Libby again and get some closure, it's really the logical climax to Hurley's dead people visions

 

[DIrishB]

I think the 316's just got hit with the sickness

But the French survivors (Danielle's crew) only got sick because they went into the temple underground (which we saw Ben do in this episode).

Did the new survivors also find the temple? Did I miss that, or is that likely future flashback material? After all, none of the original survivors got sick, why should the new ones?

I just assumed they'd found guns, and had ulterior motives. The bounty hunter woman (can't remember her name) certainly has a larger agenda, which I'm sure ties into Widmore.

The creators have been fickled on that. They've once said Libby's story isn't done but has recently said it is done. But I know we will see Libby again and get some closure, it's really the logical climax to Hurley's dead people visions

Good point.

 

[Random]

But the French survivors (Danielle's crew) only got sick because they went into the temple underground (which we saw Ben do in this episode).

Did the new survivors also find the temple? Did I miss that, or is that likely future flashback material? After all, none of the original survivors got sick, why should the new ones?

I just assumed they'd found guns, and had ulterior motives. The bounty hunter woman (can't remember her name) certainly has a larger agenda, which I'm sure ties into Widmore.



Good point.

I don't know I mean how would Widmore know which flight in time to stock it with his men. And Illana asked Lapidus something along the lines of "What is in the shadow of the statue?" Which sounds like a code phrase referring to the four toed statue. There might be another way the sickness is spread and she asked that to see if he was infected as well and therefore trust worthy. It really intrigues me what's going on with them. Also Was anyone else shocked as hell Caesar was taken out so swiftly?

And one more thing, so in order to summon the black smoke all you have to do is flush an ancient toilet?

 

[Dancanread]

Boy, that Ben will SHOOT a mofo, won't he?

Here I was thinking we were gonna get a Caesar flashback episode or something at some point. Not so much. Heh.

And so apparently at least some of the 316's are more than they seem. Nice.

 

[DIrishB]

I don't know I mean how would Widmore know which flight in time to stock it with his men.

By attaching his agents to the survivors. Like the bounty hunter to Sayid. By following the survivors, they'd lead Widmore to the island. Theoretically.

And Illana asked Lapidus something along the lines of "What is in the shadow of the statue?" Which sounds like a code phrase referring to the four toed statue. There might be another way the sickness is spread and she asked that to see if he was infected as well and therefore trust worthy.

I'd almost completely forgotten about that line. Still, it could be something Widmore told them to look for, etc. This episode reminded us that Charles was intimately familiar with the island (enough so to lead the Others for awhile) and was still trying to get back.

I'm glad the statue was mentioned again, either way.

It really intrigues me what's going on with them. Also Was anyone else shocked as hell Caesar was taken out so swiftly?

Was kind of surprised. I thought they'd been setting him up as a recurring.

And one more thing, so in order to summon the black smoke all you have to do is flush an ancient toilet?

The same thing happens with the dirtiest toilet in Londonderry.

 

[Random]

By attaching his agents to the survivors. Like the bounty hunter to Sayid. By following the survivors, they'd lead Widmore to the island. Theoretically.

Yeah that's possible, but the personality change is what's leading me to the sickness

Was kind of surprised. I thought they'd been setting him up as a recurring.

I know, I nearly jumped at that because I never saw it coming.

The same thing happens with the dirtiest toilet in Londonderry.

A big amorphous dark cloud with either tear me to shreds or give me a pleasant experience? Sounds like a British dominatrix

 

[Goodwill]

Yea, as far as I know Lindelof and Cuse have said they are done with Libby. Most recently, they admitted that there were characters that merely popped up and had no further purpose in the story and Libby was one of these. Fans are outraged that they've said this... But I don't think they'd just leave Libby alone. Personally, I think they're up to no good, but we'll see.

 

[DIrishB]

Yeah that's possible, but the personality change is what's leading me to the sickness

That can easily be explained as dropping cover now that Caeser (or is it Ceaser?) has been shot by Ben. Or just responding in kind.

A big amorphous dark cloud with either tear me to shreds or give me a pleasant experience? Sounds like a British dominatrix

Moony is only like that when he's stalking Bass.