Is Thor Crazy?

[Ice]

I also disagree with those who say Thor's story (in terms of his godhood) is over.

I'm there with you. 'Specially since Loeb says he's touching on Thor, as well.

 

[DIrishB]

I'm there with you. 'Specially since Loeb says he's touching on Thor, as well.

Exactly. But I'm speaking even in terms of the rest of Millar's arc. He'll definitly be a part of Loeb's story, but in terms of the rest of the "Grand Theft America" arc, I think he'll play an intrinsic role in the ending of the arc.

 

[cmdrjanjalani]

I fully expect Thor to play a part in the resolution of this arc.

I fully agree. Millar has virtually mirrored's Thor's experiences in Ultimates 2 with Jesus Christ since his appearance. The only differences are Thor's desire for political upheaval (which Christ avoids, and therefore a reason why he is still rejected by the Jews as the Messiah), his kicking *** in "The Passion" instead of calmly letting himself be arrested. Christ's "temporary accomodation" in the tomb, could possibly be the mirror of Thor's current imprisonment. Of course in Jesus' life, this is soon preceded by his resurrection and ascension, and I'm excited of what will happen to Thor as a parallel to this. It would be idiotic to have Thor locked away forever. He will get out, and I am looking forward for his resurrection.

 

[DIrishB]

I fully agree. Millar has virtually mirrored's Thor's experiences in Ultimates 2 with Jesus Christ since his appearance. The only differences are Thor's desire for political upheaval (which Christ avoids, and therefore a reason why he is still rejected by the Jews as the Messiah), his kicking *** in "The Passion" instead of calmly letting himself be arrested. Christ's "temporary accomodation" in the tomb, could possibly be the mirror of Thor's current imprisonment. Of course in Jesus' life, this is soon preceded by his resurrection and ascension, and I'm excited of what will happen to Thor as a parallel to this. It would be idiotic to have Thor locked away forever. He will get out, and I am looking forward for his resurrection.

Good points. So does that mean Thor will only be locked up for three days?

Maybe after his "resurrection", he'll start wearing a helmet with wings on it?

 

[fnord]

Is thor crazy?

Yes.

Is he also the Son of Odin?

Maybe.


My preference. i hope we never find out for sure. I woudl like no payof, i want to be on the cusp, never really knowing if he is mad or really a thunder god.

That would indeed rock.

 

[DIrishB]

Is thor crazy?

Yes.

Is he also the Son of Odin?

Maybe.


My preference. i hope we never find out for sure. I woudl like no payof, i want to be on the cusp, never really knowing if he is mad or really a thunder god.

That would indeed rock.

Thats still a possibility. A very real possibility.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

If you want to extend the Thor/Jesus parallel, a similar question would be: What was the point to Jesus being the Son of God? Really, what did this man do that was so Earth-shattering? In the Bible, we get descriptions of miracles, but they're all pretty low-key. Five loaves and two fish; healing the blind man and the lepers; changing water into wine at a wedding feast. About the most impressive miracle was bringing Lazarus back from the dead. That's one man being brought back, not a whole cemetery full, not an army, just one man. Moses parting the Red Sea and the subsequent decimation of the Egyptian army had more visual impact than pretty much anything Jesus did.

But maybe "big and splashy" isn't really the point. What Jesus did, what Thor seems to be doing, is changing the world one person at a time by talking. That's it. Talking. Setting an example. Nothing really huge. No parting the Red Sea, no blasting cities into rubble, nothing on a grand scale. Little miracles for small groups of people. Could either of them do something big and splashy? Absolutely. There are indications in the Bible that Jesus could have taken the planet apart. In The Ultimates, we saw Thor take out a sizeable part of an alien fleet by himself. But that's it. That's the one big event we've seen. Aside from his short fight with the Hulk and the battle with his teammates, most of what Thor has accomplished is done through conversation -- with individuals, on talk-shows, through books.

In a sense, that's where the real struggle has always been fought, in the hearts and minds of individual human beings. And while fear can sometimes force people to act a certain way, what really changes them is education and experience. Look at the places on Earth where warring groups have been subjugated by a more powerful and oppressive government. Once that government is removed, those groups go right back to fighting each other because the root causes of their disagreement weren't addressed and corrected. "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." ~Albert Einstein

So what if Thor has the ability to level New York City and half the surrounding countryside? What would that gain him? Would that, in the long run, achieve the goals of getting people to tolerate or love each other, take care of the environment, or whatever else his message really is? Some might do it out of fear, but wouldn't it be better if people voluntarily bought into his plans because they were convinced by his words?

Thor might well be waiting. He seems to know what's coming (at least to a certain extent). He's sitting in the Triskelion, which apparently is going to be Ground Zero of whatever's going to happen in the remainder of this arc. This part of the story might be the parallel to the Biblical event of the people mocking Christ on the cross. Why didn't he save himself? Was it because he couldn't, or because his death would allow something much deeper and more important to take place?

Ultimates2 still has at least four issues left. The story's not over yet.

It's beautiful...


Do you think Thor's physical body will be destroyed when the Trisk goes down?

As for the guys who say "I hope we don't get a resolution," Is there anyone out there who feels he's 100% God and this doesn't imply to them because there's already been a resolution to them?

 

[DIrishB]

It's beautiful...


Do you think Thor's physical body will be destroyed when the Trisk goes down?

Could be. But then will he be Spectre Thor? Hmmmm...

As for the guys who say "I hope we don't get a resolution," Is there anyone out there who feels he's 100% God and this doesn't imply to them because there's already been a resolution to them?

I really don't see how the Thor storyline has been resolved at all. And I don't only say that hoping for a cliched "good guys win" point of view. I'm saying there's a lot more Millar will do with this character in the remainder of the arc, and obviously he'll play a part in Ultimates 3, according to Loeb.

 

[Guijllons]

If you want to extend the Thor/Jesus parallel, a similar question would be: What was the point to Jesus being the Son of God? Really, what did this man do that was so Earth-shattering? In the Bible, we get descriptions of miracles, but they're all pretty low-key. Five loaves and two fish; healing the blind man and the lepers; changing water into wine at a wedding feast. About the most impressive miracle was bringing Lazarus back from the dead. That's one man being brought back, not a whole cemetery full, not an army, just one man. Moses parting the Red Sea and the subsequent decimation of the Egyptian army had more visual impact than pretty much anything Jesus did.

Ok, we're extending the Jesus parallel, but Millar based Thor on David Icke, the conspiracy theorist that claimed he was the son of God also. When Jesus in the Bible could create miracles, a real person cannot, such is the story of Thor.

But maybe "big and splashy" isn't really the point. What Jesus did, what Thor seems to be doing, is changing the world one person at a time by talking. That's it. Talking. Setting an example. Nothing really huge. No parting the Red Sea, no blasting cities into rubble, nothing on a grand scale. Little miracles for small groups of people. Could either of them do something big and splashy? Absolutely. There are indications in the Bible that Jesus could have taken the planet apart. In The Ultimates, we saw Thor take out a sizeable part of an alien fleet by himself. But that's it. That's the one big event we've seen. Aside from his short fight with the Hulk and the battle with his teammates, most of what Thor has accomplished is done through conversation -- with individuals, on talk-shows, through books.

Big and splashy is the point. When Thor talks to Volstagg he says that he's enjoying the global profile, because of a few brawls. He has protesters outside the triskellion and hundreds of disciples. This is hardly changing the world one person at a time. And I think requesting that a person to rationalise and develop their own opinion is far more important than converting. See, this is another problem. Thor gives information to open up peoples minds to new ideas, whereas Jesus gave instruction.

In a sense, that's where the real struggle has always been fought, in the hearts and minds of individual human beings. And while fear can sometimes force people to act a certain way, what really changes them is education and experience. Look at the places on Earth where warring groups have been subjugated by a more powerful and oppressive government. Once that government is removed, those groups go right back to fighting each other because the root causes of their disagreement weren't addressed and corrected. "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." ~Albert Einstein

Peoples fears make them seek security, if a government makes its people fearful, they shall rely more on the government. It's something we see in some of the worlds most developed countries, and is certainly the cornerstone to most organised religion - without hell, why seek heaven? And Einstein was absolutely right, if we can rationalise our actions, understand our prejudices, appreciate difference even, we will see far farther than had we just accepted our lot in life and played things out in accordance to our direct influences. It's essential that people question the ideals they hold dear and after a time, discard them.

So what if Thor has the ability to level New York City and half the surrounding countryside? What would that gain him? Would that, in the long run, achieve the goals of getting people to tolerate or love each other, take care of the environment, or whatever else his message really is? Some might do it out of fear, but wouldn't it be better if people voluntarily bought into his plans because they were convinced by his words?

People have voluntarily followed all manner of dictators throughout history. People were not forced to vote for Hitler for example, they were convinced it was the right thing to do. Were the people of Germany evil? Of course not, but they followed a cause that was not just. What is Thor's real plan anyway? What does Odin want? To battle the agents of the new world order, we know that much. But for what ends? If my question is "what is the point of Thor being a god?", then all we have so far is Thor having an idea, or his father having an idea. Just like every philosopher that ever lived, including composite figures like Lao Tzu and Jesus.
One does not need to be holy to want to change the world, to have a good idea or do great things for his fellow man. Nor does he have to have an absolute that he preaches to these people that listen. Thor is giving people a choice, because they wanted another way. I do not think that Thor needed to be the son of a god, just a good man with some wise words.

Thor might well be waiting. He seems to know what's coming (at least to a certain extent). He's sitting in the Triskelion, which apparently is going to be Ground Zero of whatever's going to happen in the remainder of this arc. This part of the story might be the parallel to the Biblical event of the people mocking Christ on the cross. Why didn't he save himself? Was it because he couldn't, or because his death would allow something much deeper and more important to take place?

Thor's death would mean that his words become forgotten in favour of the interpretations of his words. His memory would be battled down by the global religious elite that runs the country in which he is held and eventually incorporated into what currently exists.
Thor may be in the place that he needs to be, what has happened may have needed to happen, but that will be the truest Deus ex machina in the series so far.

Ultimates2 still has at least four issues left. The story's not over yet.

And if the father comes to save the day I'll eat my hat.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Ok, we're extending the Jesus parallel, but Millar based Thor on David Icke, the conspiracy theorist that claimed he was the son of God also. When Jesus in the Bible could create miracles, a real person cannot, such is the story of Thor.

Making a giant bomb disappears qualifies as a miracle.

Big and splashy is the point. When Thor talks to Volstagg he says that he's enjoying the global profile, because of a few brawls. He has protesters outside the triskellion and hundreds of disciples. This is hardly changing the world one person at a time. And I think requesting that a person to rationalise and develop their own opinion is far more important than converting. See, this is another problem. Thor gives information to open up peoples minds to new ideas, whereas Jesus gave instruction.

It's more believeable. If Jesus was contemporary, we would've had the same followings as Thor. It's all because of media. Would you rather only a handful of followers? I think there's a fine line between information and instruction.

"what is the point of Thor being a god?",

That's the point of the "Thor is a god angle". If we had the answer there wouldn't be a future Thor story to tell.

I do not think that Thor needed to be the son of a god, just a good man with some wise words.

You're not the only one. But that's part of the entire debate.

 

[Seldes Katne]

Ok, we're extending the Jesus parallel, but Millar based Thor on David Icke, the conspiracy theorist that claimed he was the son of God also. When Jesus in the Bible could create miracles, a real person cannot, such is the story of Thor.

Do you by any chance have a link or other source for where Millar said that? I tend not to read his interviews, so I may have missed it. Not that it's going to matter much -- I'm enjoying picking out the Biblical parallels, regardless of what Millar intended.

Big and splashy is the point. When Thor talks to Volstagg he says that he's enjoying the global profile, because of a few brawls. He has protesters outside the triskellion and hundreds of disciples. This is hardly changing the world one person at a time.

True. It's more of a snowball effect. Thor's been at this a while, and as MWoF mentions, he's doing this in the age of world-wide media. How much of his message is being passed on by other people when Thor's not around to explain himself?

And I think requesting that a person to rationalise and develop their own opinion is far more important than converting. See, this is another problem. Thor gives information to open up peoples minds to new ideas, whereas Jesus gave instruction.

This is where the narrative falls short, I think. Is an actual conversion expected? I'm capable of agreeing with what I've seen of his message (which really hasn't been given in much detail) without feeling as though I need to leave my present faith and become an Asatru (I think that's the right title -- a follower of the Norse pantheon, at any rate). A lot of what Thor seems to be "preaching" is included in Christianity, and in a number of other religions as well -- taking care of the environment (I was taught that Christians are "stewards of God's creation" in Sunday School), non-violent problem-solving, reaching out to others in need, etc. Are his followers his disciples because they are expected to convert, or because they feel converting is the right thing to do? How many protesters outside the Triskelion are converts, how many are just human/environmental rights supporters, how many are just curious?

As an aside, I'd be interested in seeing how other leaders of world religions view this whole thing. I'd also be interested in seeing what kind of reaction Thor gets from individuals within his own ranks. Surely not all of them agree with everything he says. (I don't expect Millar or any of the other Marvel writers will touch on this, I'm just curious.)

Peoples fears make them seek security, if a government makes its people fearful, they shall rely more on the government.

Or if they get scared enough, they'll up and overthrow it. Or move out of the country.

It's something we see in some of the worlds most developed countries, and is certainly the cornerstone to most organised religion - without hell, why seek heaven?

My personal answer to that is because heaven is where God and I should be able to communicate fully "face-to-face", as it were, and I've got about a zillion questions I want answered when I get there.

Of course, I'm also heard speculation that most of the really interesting people will be in Hell, so now I'm conflicted....

It's essential that people question the ideals they hold dear and after a time, discard them.

I'm not following this part -- why discard them?

Thor's death would mean that his words become forgotten in favour of the interpretations of his words. His memory would be battled down by the global religious elite that runs the country in which he is held and eventually incorporated into what currently exists.

I'm not expecting a literal death and resurrection out of this story. All joking and speculation aside, the Thor/Jesus parallel only goes so far, and that's as it should be. At the end of it all, Thor is not Jesus, and Odin is not God. I'm not expecting miracles from Thor, at least not Jesus-style miracles. I don't expect Thor to heal Tony's alleged brain tumor by laying on of hands or anything of that nature, for example.

And if the father comes to save the day I'll eat my hat.

Now, that sentiment I'll wholeheartedly agree with. But no hat-eating for me; I'll get my fiber from Frosted Mini Wheats, thanks. :wink:

Seriously, that would ruin the entire story. The Ultimate Deus Ex Machina. Urk. :? (And just once I'd like to have a Messiah-type claim that his mother sent him, instead of his father. I mean, really, is that too much to ask?)

Part of the fun of Thor's character is the "is he/isn't he" mystery of the whole thing. I don't think Millar's setting us up for Odin or any of the rest of the pantheon to come and save the day, anyway. From what I've seen, there's no real literary foreshadowing for it in the story.

The nature of being a god in the Ultimate universe is something which should be addressed, and being in god in general, obviously. You can't discount Thor and Loki's actions unless you appreciate how they're motivated.

I agree with this, also. What precisely is meant by a "god"? Is it based on abilities? Morality? The individual's origin?

Making a giant bomb disappears qualifies as a miracle.

There's a technological explanation offered for this, but the question at that point is: do you believe the technology available can achieve that goal? I have some issues with how much the hammer is supposed to be able to do, how Thor (or anyone else) actually makes it work, why the hammer and harness seem to be so different from anything else produced by the Supersoldier program, etc. Along with that are the questions: if Thor is just a human, why is he still apparently being held in Banner's old cell? (And yet when he meets with Tony Stark, the only restraint he's wearing are a pair of handcuffs.) Where is the hammer and harness at this point? They haven't been mentioned since Issue 5.

And we've got how long to go before this arc is finished? :?

 

[Bass]

And if the father comes to save the day I'll eat my hat.

I want this to happen.

And we've got how long to go before this arc is finished?

Oh about, SEVENTEEN QUINTILLION YEARS.

 

[DIrishB]

Ok, we're extending the Jesus parallel, but Millar based Thor on David Icke, the conspiracy theorist that claimed he was the son of God also. When Jesus in the Bible could create miracles, a real person cannot, such is the story of Thor.

Big and splashy is the point. When Thor talks to Volstagg he says that he's enjoying the global profile, because of a few brawls. He has protesters outside the triskellion and hundreds of disciples. This is hardly changing the world one person at a time. And I think requesting that a person to rationalise and develop their own opinion is far more important than converting. See, this is another problem. Thor gives information to open up peoples minds to new ideas, whereas Jesus gave instruction.


Peoples fears make them seek security, if a government makes its people fearful, they shall rely more on the government. It's something we see in some of the worlds most developed countries, and is certainly the cornerstone to most organised religion - without hell, why seek heaven? And Einstein was absolutely right, if we can rationalise our actions, understand our prejudices, appreciate difference even, we will see far farther than had we just accepted our lot in life and played things out in accordance to our direct influences. It's essential that people question the ideals they hold dear and after a time, discard them.


People have voluntarily followed all manner of dictators throughout history. People were not forced to vote for Hitler for example, they were convinced it was the right thing to do. Were the people of Germany evil? Of course not, but they followed a cause that was not just. What is Thor's real plan anyway? What does Odin want? To battle the agents of the new world order, we know that much. But for what ends? If my question is "what is the point of Thor being a god?", then all we have so far is Thor having an idea, or his father having an idea. Just like every philosopher that ever lived, including composite figures like Lao Tzu and Jesus.
One does not need to be holy to want to change the world, to have a good idea or do great things for his fellow man. Nor does he have to have an absolute that he preaches to these people that listen. Thor is giving people a choice, because they wanted another way. I do not think that Thor needed to be the son of a god, just a good man with some wise words.

Thor's death would mean that his words become forgotten in favour of the interpretations of his words. His memory would be battled down by the global religious elite that runs the country in which he is held and eventually incorporated into what currently exists.
Thor may be in the place that he needs to be, what has happened may have needed to happen, but that will be the truest Deus ex machina in the series so far.


And if the father comes to save the day I'll eat my hat.

Wow, Guij, that post gave me a total stiffy. Very good points.

Making a giant bomb disappears qualifies as a miracle.

Not if it was a result of the harness he wears.

Along with that are the questions: if Thor is just a human, why is he still apparently being held in Banner's old cell?

Its all Loki's doing.

Otherwise, more very good points Seldes. I could sit here all day and read this conversation between you and Guij.

 

[Guijllons]

Do you by any chance have a link or other source for where Millar said that? I tend not to read his interviews, so I may have missed it. Not that it's going to matter much -- I'm enjoying picking out the Biblical parallels, regardless of what Millar intended.

Afraid not. I saw it on this board first of all. And I think they are less parallels, more references.

True. It's more of a snowball effect. Thor's been at this a while, and as MWoF mentions, he's doing this in the age of world-wide media. How much of his message is being passed on by other people when Thor's not around to explain himself?

People shall be passing their own message using Thor's words. This is not communication, this shall be speechifying and dissection. Without Thor to pass the message on himself what he said will pass quickly into legend and will lose near all of its potency.

This is where the narrative falls short, I think. Is an actual conversion expected? I'm capable of agreeing with what I've seen of his message (which really hasn't been given in much detail) without feeling as though I need to leave my present faith and become an Asatru (I think that's the right title -- a follower of the Norse pantheon, at any rate). A lot of what Thor seems to be "preaching" is included in Christianity, and in a number of other religions as well -- taking care of the environment (I was taught that Christians are "stewards of God's creation" in Sunday School), non-violent problem-solving, reaching out to others in need, etc. Are his followers his disciples because they are expected to convert, or because they feel converting is the right thing to do? How many protesters outside the Triskelion are converts, how many are just human/environmental rights supporters, how many are just curious?

I think conversation is expected, Thor has set himself up as a public figure. In this day and age, a person would only place themselves in direct opposition to world leaders if they do feel that debate is a possible and favourable means of getting the message across. We see Thor on Larry King, I believe he's known for being hard nosed and to ask tough questions. Thor probably intends to move up the interview chain until he does reach those of direct influence on the world. Not necessarily to change the world directly, but if Bush were forced to debate with Thor, people would watch and be able to form a new opinion. One of two opinions is still better than only one.

You say a lot of what Thor is preaching is included in Christianity. Non-violent problem solving has never been top of the Christian agenda, throughout all of history. you continue to mention that you were taught that Christians were stewards of the world, the Earth religions in Northern Europe were adopted by Christianity as its own practices and the faiths themselves made illegal by conquerors. Much of what is said by Jesus in the Bible about peace and freedom is very clearly counterbalanced by the acts of his father.

Those outside the Triskellion will be a mix of hippies who believed as Thor in the first place, liberals who believe that Thor's goals are more important than the man himself and those that are on the 'next big thing bandwagon'. Ae they expected to convert? Thor's vision seems to be a very contemporary one, it's not new and certainly not unique. Simply a response to how the world is turning right now. He is not putting something new out there, he's just trying to get it to be seen as important. So no, I don't think they are expected to convert, because people already know the message. He'll certainly not be urging those following him to worship him, just for them to rethink their attitudes towards the world. Taoism over dogma.

As an aside, I'd be interested in seeing how other leaders of world religions view this whole thing. I'd also be interested in seeing what kind of reaction Thor gets from individuals within his own ranks. Surely not all of them agree with everything he says. (I don't expect Millar or any of the other Marvel writers will touch on this, I'm just curious.)

Clearly leaders of the three largest monotheistic religions will denounce Thor as a madman. Furthermore, none would even accept him as a prophet. Though new religions shall pop up in the mid-west with stories of angels and tankards inscribed with words from God telling of ancient viking cities just outside Texas. Oh, vikings, that will give the neo-facists something to ling onto as well. Thor's arrival will be seen as some sort of aryan call to arms. I could spin on that thought alone for quite a while, but suffice to say, it wouldn't be a happy and balancing situation.

Or if they get scared enough, they'll up and overthrow it. Or move out of the country.

People don't overthrow governments because they're scared, they do it because they're angry. Fear makes one seeks security, anger makes one seek change. It's human nature. And why move out of a country they love? To go offtopic and hit on American politics a touch, I have friends in America that hate Bush for what he has done to their country. It is still the citizens country, never those we have entrusted to run it.

My personal answer to that is because heaven is where God and I should be able to communicate fully "face-to-face", as it were, and I've got about a zillion questions I want answered when I get there.

Of course, I'm also heard speculation that most of the really interesting people will be in Hell, so now I'm conflicted....

Heh, and the devil has all the best tunes. Well I'm trying to find the answers here on Earth, and they are there, it just requires a bit more reading and a lot less faith.

I'm not following this part -- why discard them?

Unlearning. I'll use drawing as an example. One must first learn to draw, to understand proportion and form, get that face looking right, the eyes lined up, the mouth beneath the nose etc. get it looking real (which is actual a battle of unlearning in itself since were are all plagued by the smily face meme to start off with). Once we have something that is real we can then understand why a face looks like it does, and then forget that, and concentrate on what the face is trying to say, what expression, the emotion. We don't always think that the eyes need to be in place, just that the face speaks.
As with faith, when one understands we are requested to do things in the Bible, we can ignore the teachings because we have found equilibrium. It has been oft said that Jesus was Tao, balanced. He didn't need a book to refer to, he knew. The book and the faith are held in too high a regard over the actions of its subjects.

I'm not expecting a literal death and resurrection out of this story. All joking and speculation aside, the Thor/Jesus parallel only goes so far, and that's as it should be. At the end of it all, Thor is not Jesus, and Odin is not God. I'm not expecting miracles from Thor, at least not Jesus-style miracles. I don't expect Thor to heal Tony's alleged brain tumor by laying on of hands or anything of that nature, for example.

Well quite. And it would be an awful cop out for Millar to pull such a dirty stunt. The Ultimates is based in reality after all.

Now, that sentiment I'll wholeheartedly agree with. But no hat-eating for me; I'll get my fiber from Frosted Mini Wheats, thanks.

Seriously, that would ruin the entire story. The Ultimate Deus Ex Machina. Urk. (And just once I'd like to have a Messiah-type claim that his mother sent him, instead of his father. I mean, really, is that too much to ask?)

I'm certain it won't be happening, Thor has called ou to his father who has offered no aid. At least that we are immediately aware of. All part of the plan and all that. And I'm not really sure that the literal parallels with the real Thor and jesus and Odin and the Christian god would at all be complimentary, so I think it can be left there.

Part of the fun of Thor's character is the "is he/isn't he" mystery of the whole thing. I don't think Millar's setting us up for Odin or any of the rest of the pantheon to come and save the day, anyway. From what I've seen, there's no real literary foreshadowing for it in the story.

No, no I don't think that at all. I was just trying to to think of an amusing sign off to the post, which now seems terribly contrived now that I've been forced to admit it.

I agree with this, also. What precisely is meant by a "god"? Is it based on abilities? Morality? The individual's origin?

I wasn't specifically talking about any of those. I was more curious in spite of them. What Thor can do as a man (post-human in any sense or not) is no different to anyone in the Ultimate universe. His origin we know, he was born to a family, worked as a nurse, had a nervous breakdown and realised he was Thor, son of Odin. His morality is that of a 21st century liberal with a bee in his bonnet about those that run the world in our name, it's quite standard faire. The questionable aspect of Thor is that he is nothing more than any one of us. So if he is a god, so what? What difference does that actually make?

 

[Bass]

Thor's death would mean that his words become forgotten in favour of the interpretations of his words. His memory would be battled down by the global religious elite that runs the country in which he is held and eventually incorporated into what currently exists.
Thor may be in the place that he needs to be, what has happened may have needed to happen, but that will be the truest Deus ex machina in the series so far.

Just so you know, that isn't a deus ex machina. Also, I doubt Thor will die as he's already had his crucifixtion in #5.

 

[DIrishB]

Just so you know, that isn't a deus ex machina. Also, I doubt Thor will die as he's already had his crucifixtion in #5.

And he's confirmed for Ultimates 3 by Loeb.

 

[Guijllons]

Just so you know, that isn't a deus ex machina. Also, I doubt Thor will die as he's already had his crucifixtion in #5.

It is in its true form.

Incidentally, I never did claim that Thor would die, just continuing the Jesus parallel.

 

[cmdrjanjalani]

And he's confirmed for Ultimates 3 by Loeb.

Maybe he'll be wearing his winged helmet by that time.

 

[Bass]

It is in its true form.

Incidentally, I never did claim that Thor would die, just continuing the Jesus parallel.

Yeah, I know, just pointing it out, 'sall.

But what do you mean "in its true form"? The term deus ex machina comes from a greek term relating to a certain way of ending a story involving coincidence to turn an ending. Your ending is not turned by coincidence.

 

[E.Vi.L.]

Deus Ex Machina means "God on a machine".

That was when, in a greek play, an actor portraying a god was lowered on stage using a crane. Descending from Olympus, so to speak. And then the god would magically resolve any plot point.

So if Thor being seen as crazy is all the work of Loki, we are almost litterally talking about a "Deus Ex Machina". Put him in a car, and we're in business. Especially if he is also involved in the framing of Cap. Hopefully not, but you never know...