Captain America Movie

I downloaded the Matt Sallinger 1990 movie just to remind myself what torture is like.


I'll probably watch it some time next week.
 
I've completely changed my opinion relating to this movie and CAPTAIN AMERICA and think pulp is the wrong direction. :/
 
Bass said:
I've completely changed my opinion relating to this movie and CAPTAIN AMERICA and think pulp is the wrong direction. :/
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You wouldn't be Bass if you were happy with it.

Glad to have you back, buddy.
 
As I said I didn't like how the teaser was made, it couldn't really get me excited. Now if it was like this, than that would be a different story
 
E said:
You wouldn't be Bass if you were happy with it.

Glad to have you back, buddy.
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It wasn't just whimsy. I was talking to Adam who is a big Captain America fan in an attempt to get psyched, and he pointed out that a full-on pulp Captain America has two problems; the first is that if he's essentially fighting with GI Joe against Cobra, then he's not super anymore, he's just another bizarre character. The second is that if you focus on two secret fictitious factions fighting behind the scenes, why both setting it in World War II?

And my entire viewpoint changed. I have never cared for Cap, and always because I thought he was too dour, too serious. And I realise, that is never what bothered me. What bothered me was Arnim Zola. The crazyness annoyed me. Because it's a cliche. Zombie Nazis, Alien Nazis, whatever, it's all the same. And who the hell is going to do weird Nazis better than HELLBOY? That's right, no one.

Adam is now, ironically, more pro-pulp-Cap than I am at the moment. So I hope the movie is fun, because I just think Cap fighting the Red Skull over the Cosmic Cube is really kinda pointless. I have such a low interest in Cap that I'm very open to the possibility that the movie could be pulp and push me back to "pulp Cap is where it's at", it's just that right now, I have a hard time getting excited by the silliness.
 
Bass said:
I just think Cap fighting the Red Skull over the Cosmic Cube is really kinda pointless.
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I don't like it either; not because it's pointless but because it's too comic book-y. You can have Captain America fighting Red Skull and not need to bring the cosmic cube into it (which is a fundamentally stupid concept itself).

I would assume that the cosmic cube stuff will tie into Avengers, but Ultimates proved very well that you don't need ridiculous cosmic-style plots to tell a "big" story for the Avengers.
 
It shouldn't be all about the cube, But you also really can't have the Red Skull without the cube. It should just be used as a weapon of Red Skull, not the main point of the movie. That's just what I think
 
I actually think you don't even need the Red Skull. I think all you need is the super-missile that Cap 'dies' defusing at the end. The Nazis with their super-tech (from a 40s point-of-view a missile that can reach across the globe is super-tech) is enough of a dramatized threat that can make Steve Rogers and the Allies desperation to turn him into a super soldier compelling.

Think about STAR WARS. The trench run is super-exciting. Granted, it has Darth Vader, so I'm not opposed entirely to the idea of there being some super-villain needed to keep the plot going, but I don't think he has to be anything other than a cool-looking SS officer with a cool name like Hans Landa from INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS or even Toht from RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK.

I'm not a fan of supervillains who are identical to the hero but 'evil'. Abomination and Iron Monger, for example. I think it's very uncreative. Red Skull isn't awful, he's better than Abomination and Iron Monger, but I'm tired that the villain is just the hero in a black suit and a Dick Tracy disfigurement. (How can you tell he's evil? He's black and ugly.) Spidey's quite lucky in that he has Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Electro, Sandman, and even a good black-ugly doppelganger in Venom. Batman too, has so many inventive villains, and Superman even has two or three (Lex, Brainaic, Darkseid). But these other guys... blerg.

I would think if you must have an evil Nazi super-soldier to fight Cap, something like Titanium-Man (with a better name) would be more compelling (especially if he was designed by Howard Stark) than "Captain Nazi". Even a villain like the Leader or Lex Luthor would be more interesting; the German super soldier is super-smart, the American is super-strong. I dunno.
 
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I don't see a problem with the cube it's always had ties to Captain America. And like having a super missile or high tech what ever it's simply something that adds urgency to the plot. If it's not "we have to stop him before he uses the cube" it would be "we have to stop them before they finish their missile". And I doubt the cube is being used as a set up for the Avengers to have a huge cosmic battle or for anything really. I think it will remain in Cap's corner save for maybe for a cameo or a blink-and-you-miss-it side effect.

Also it seems they're already planning on a sequel
 
Random said:
I don't see a problem with the cube it's always had ties to Captain America. And like having a super missile or high tech what ever it's simply something that adds urgency to the plot. If it's not "we have to stop him before he uses the cube" it would be "we have to stop them before they finish their missile". And I doubt the cube is being used as a set up for the Avengers to have a huge cosmic battle or for anything really. I think it will remain in Cap's corner save for maybe for a cameo or a blink-and-you-miss-it side effect.

Also it seems they're already planning on a sequel
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yes....this.
 
Bass said:
I actually think you don't even need the Red Skull. I think all you need is the super-missile that Cap 'dies' defusing at the end. The Nazis with their super-tech (from a 40s point-of-view a missile that can reach across the globe is super-tech) is enough of a dramatized threat that can make Steve Rogers and the Allies desperation to turn him into a super soldier compelling.

Think about STAR WARS. The trench run is super-exciting. Granted, it has Darth Vader, so I'm not opposed entirely to the idea of there being some super-villain needed to keep the plot going, but I don't think he has to be anything other than a cool-looking SS officer with a cool name like Hans Landa from INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS or even Toht from RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK.

I'm not a fan of supervillains who are identical to the hero but 'evil'. Abomination and Iron Monger, for example. I think it's very uncreative. Red Skull isn't awful, he's better than Abomination and Iron Monger, but I'm tired that the villain is just the hero in a black suit and a Dick Tracy disfigurement. (How can you tell he's evil? He's black and ugly.) Spidey's quite lucky in that he has Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Electro, Sandman, and even a good black-ugly doppelganger in Venom. Batman too, has so many inventive villains, and Superman even has two or three (Lex, Brainaic, Darkseid). But these other guys... blerg.

I would think if you must have an evil Nazi super-soldier to fight Cap, something like Titanium-Man (with a better name) would be more compelling (especially if he was designed by Howard Stark) than "Captain Nazi". Even a villain like the Leader or Lex Luthor would be more interesting; the German super soldier is super-smart, the American is super-strong. I dunno.
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Except Red Skull isn't an evil twin villain per say, but instead is the opposite of Captain America, like Lex Luthor is the opposite of Superman.

Both Red Skull and Cap were born in poverty, Cap growing up in Depression Era America, while the Skull grew up in post WWI Germany. Both had abusive dads. But the difference is Cap rose above his environment to become a hero, while the Skull used it as an excuse to became a monster. Red Skull isn't evil because he is a Nazi, he is a Nazi because he is evil, Nazism just gave his evil form. You don't have that contrast with a generic SS officer. Their differences are more important then their similarities, at least with 616 Cap. 616 Cap represents freedom and tolerance, an idealized version of America's values, which are sometimes ignored by the American government.

Red Skull represents tyranny and hatred, even if the Nazis are gone, those evils still exist. The Red Skull's evil is far beyond Nazism, otherwise he could have given up after WWII. Red Skull blames the entire world for his crappy life, his motive isn't power, oh no, its revenge. There are some people who have a grudge against the world in real life, its not a unrealistic motive. Someone like Dr. Doom would simply come up with the some direct plan towards conquest, like controlling everyone's minds. Red Skull often develops plans that serve no purpose beyond sadism, he often used the power of the cosmic cube for extremely sadistic purposes, when he could have just used to take over the world. An individual that filled with hate is truly scary and frankly I think there are almost that hate filled in real life.

The Skull is way cooler then Kleiser or Master Man, were both pretty generic Nazi villains. Someone like Master Man would be just a generic Nazi Super Soldier, Red Skull's evil is far beyond that. Red Skull gave up being a Nazi in the 80s and frankly he has managed to become more evil in the process.
 
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You have some good points there but I have to point out
The Overlord said:
Both Red Skull and Cap were born in poverty, Cap growing up in Depression Era America, while the Skull grew up in post WWI Germany. Both had abusive dads. But the difference is Cap rose above his environment to become a hero, while the Skull used it as an excuse to became a monster.
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You basically just described an evil twin. But what Bass means as evil twin is Iron man is a guy in a suit of armor, Iron Monger is a guy in a suit of armor. Hulk is a man transformed by science into a monster, Abomination is a guy transformed by science into a monster. As oppose to Spider-man who was bitten by a radioactive spider and the green goblin who got super strength from a rush to human testing experiment. For Superman he has powers and Lex does not. So if both Red Skull and Cap have super human abilities thanks to a super soldier serum they will follow that same format which Bass finds boring. I personally don't mind it cause it streamlines the story a bit more, creates a tighter mythology, and can allow more focus on the hero. Though that can get boring if repeated.

I would agree that I don't want Red Skull to have super soldier powers but I would like him to become a force to be reckoned with, with the cube.
 
Firstly, Red Skull is an evil Captain America. There is nothing else to his character. He is Captain Nazi. That's all he is and has ever been. Lex Luthor is not an evil Superman, nor is he his opposite (surely, if he were his opposite, he'd be a woman). Joker is not Batman's opposite. Mandarin is not Iron Man's (magic is no more an 'opposite' to science than a Chinaman is 'opposite' to an American, or a clown is to a bat). Red Skull, however, is the evil Nazi result of the evil Nazi version of the super soldier experiment. As Random reiterates; Abomination is the evil Hulk, Iron Monger the evil Iron Man, Sinestro is the evil Green Lantern, Zoom is the evil Flash...

Secondly, it's not that I find the idea of the doppelganger inherently boring or bad, but rather, it is simply the least creative method of creating a villain. When you're six years old trying to come up with a villain for your awesome superhero, the first thing you do is draw him 'evil', invert the colour scheme, and give him the same powers and origin. The problem with such a character is that they are weaker than the hero, because they are identical except they don't have the backing of society. The other problem is, as I say, a lack of creativity which spreads through all the choices inherent in the character.

Part of what makes a great villain is what their antagonism brings out of the hero. Let's take a look at Batman for a second (because he has awesome rogues) and look at the seven villains for the Nolan movies; Scarecrow, Ra's Al Ghul, Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, Bane, and the (much-rumoured) Riddler. When Batman takes on Scarecrow it brings out his courage. Ra's Al Ghul brings out his sense of justice and principles. Joker brings out his willpower. Two-Face, his friendship. Catwoman, his romantic nature. Bane forces Batman to exercise military thinking and stamina. And the Riddler, with all his wonderful clues, brings out Batman's deductive intelligence.

Dopplegangers, by and large, do not do this. The reason is that they attack the hero on only a superficial level. Red Skull taxes Captain America's... patriotism. Iron Monger exposes Iron Man's... technical skill. Abomination forces Hulk to... be strong. It is nothing more than top trumps, a contest between imaginary abstractions of strength.

Now, this can of course have its pleasures, particularly in the short story of 22-pages, but it simply lacks substantive depth to avoid repetition when applied to a long-form story. As much as I like IRON MAN, let's be honest: Iron Monger wasn't "good". THE INCREDIBLE HULK was fine, but the end fight is clearly the weakest part of the movie. And certainly, they are the most repetitive, shallowest, experiences in their stories.

But the best rogues attack the hero on a level that he is, in someway, not prepared for. Batman is supposed to be intimidating, so Scarecrow makes him scared and exposes his courage. Batman is methodical and rational, so Joker attacks him with unpredictable insanity. The weapon the hero uses to fight (Batman's fear, intelligence, or skill; Spidey's taunts and super-powers...) is in contrast with the villain's weapon of choice (Catwoman's stealth and manipulation, or Green Goblin's insanity and resources). Doppelgangers revolve around two people hitting each other with the same sword.

This is simply the problem inherent in doppelgangers, but it does not preclude them from being awesome. Venom is probably the best doppelganger that springs to mind, and I feel that's to do with solving the problems I mention above; he's more powerful than Spidey (he knows his secret identity, does not trigger his spider-sense, and can turn invisible), he brings out Spidey's fear and his guilt, as well as a self-sacrificial nature all of which is key to Spidey's themes of power and responsibility, and finally, his method of choice, which is to hunt Spidey, plays at odds with Spidey's evasive, wise-cracking nature. Venom is a doppelganger, and he is much better and more creative than Kraven who is not. He is a vast improvement.

Now, of course, a writer can improve a doppelganger or destroy it, and certainly, the execution of the Red Skull will determine his success and his nature as a doppelganger is not a hindrance to his potential success. All I am saying is that a doppelganger is the least creative choice you can make for a villain, but that doesn't mean it will always be a bad one.
 
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