Captain America Movie

[The Overlord]

Fighting Aliens who were in leagued with the nazis is a very silly concept, its pretty amazing that it worked in Ultimates. I doubt it would work in a movie

Its a comic book, you have suspend your disbelief a bit.

The fact is putting aliens in a Cap movie wouldn't be pratical, it would just be uneeded drain on the special effects budget. The aliens worked in Ultimates because they were fighting the ultimates, not just Cap. Cap fought aliens in Avengers title, but not in his own title.

Cap on his own works best fighting human beings with political agendas like the Skull. A Cap movie should combine elements from the 616 and Ultimate universes.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

I'd keep the aliens outta this.


If anything, I'd have the Nazis have develop their own brand of super solider serum. And like Cap...only Red Skull's DNA took to the serum. And have Cap fight an army of genetically faulted super Nazis.

 

[SSJmole]

I'd keep the aliens outta this.


If anything, I'd have the Nazis have develop their own brand of super solider serum. And like Cap...only Red Skull's DNA took to the serum. And have Cap fight an army of genetically faulted super Nazis.

I love that idea , I'm also against Aliens been in the film but something like that works for me.

 

[ourchair]

If anything, I'd have the Nazis have develop their own brand of super solider serum. And like Cap...only Red Skull's DNA took to the serum. And have Cap fight an army of genetically faulted super Nazis.

That is ALSO cool.

I'm picturing something like the coolest parts of the first two minutes of Justice League Unlimited's "Patriot Act" and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's visualization of Mr. Hyde and the Hyde-Soldier.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

That is ALSO cool.

I'm picturing something like the coolest parts of the first two minutes of Justice League Unlimited's "Patriot Act" and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's visualization of Mr. Hyde and the Hyde-Soldier.

BINGO!

You have Red Skull be the one whose DNA actually accepts the serum...but everyone else rejects it and are disfigured.

Ourchair gets it. And believe it or not....I find it a bit more believable than aliens.



You get your Capt America origin story and current time villain battle. And it could realistically leave it open to sequels or set it up to tie into an Avenger film.

 

[ourchair]

BINGO!

You have Red Skull be the one whose DNA actually accepts the serum...but everyone else rejects it and are disfigured.

Ourchair gets it. And believe it or not....I find it a bit more believable than aliens.



You get your Capt America origin story and current time villain battle. And it could realistically leave it open to sequels or set it up to tie into an Avenger film.

Yay, your story and my story are bestest friends now!

Soon they will be holding hands... then kissing... then heavy petting...

And then after some special hugging... BOOM!

The Captain America movie!

 

[Planet-man]

Ourchair gets it. And believe it or not....I find it a bit more believable than aliens.

I believe it. The key to instant mainstream acceptance of any sci-fi plot is to keep it grounded on Earth. You can have the most ridiculous exaggeration of human science and be okay but the moment you add outer space or especially dimensional invasion, people start to say "Okay, it's a silly movie."(this is also why I have no interest in seeing Darkseid in a Superman movie).

You idea is awesome, VVD.

 

[The Overlord]

Millar and Hitch made it pretty clear that the aliens don't make the Nazis any less evil than they were in real history because they weren't the power behind the Third Reich.

It's not like they manipulated the events at the Beer Hall Putsch or controlled politics or anything like that. The idea is that they gave technological support to an undeniably fascist movement, because the Chitauri believed in encouraging humanity to turn upon itself.

The events of Ultimate 2 basically said that having failed the notion of 'covert destruction' they would now turn to 'overt annihilation'. So no, it doesn't lessen the evil of Nazism.

That kind of interpretation of sci-fi historical revisionist literature is like saying writing a story where self-aware cyborgs from the 23rd century gave white supremacists ray guns makes the white supremacists less evil.

As I've already said, the Red Skull is fundamentally a more interesting villain than Kleiser. But while a villain DOES make a hero, it doesn't necessarily follow that a villain makes the story. And the idea of the hypothetical story I've written out here is not that the villain himself is interesting or well-characterized, but that the villain (Kleiser) exists ENTIRELY to be subservient to the hero's character development.

Yes, there ARE stories where a good villain WILL help develop a character without being subservient to the plot. But THIS is not THAT story. Surely, you've read more than one Batman or Spider-Man comic in which the villain was a throwaway device who existed solely to define the hero for that story arc.

Sometimes you just don't NEED the multi-dimensional well-developed villain (Red Skull) for certain kinds of stories. Not ALL stories. Just certain ones. The opposite is true, sometimes you CAN'T use the throwaway villain (Kleiser) in certain stories. Surely you can appreciate that storytelling dichotomy.

The thing is the Red Skull is also way more pratical then Kleiser. Cap works best fighting human evils, terrorism and tyranny, not space aliens. Cap should be a somewhat realstic character, him fighting space aliens would ruin any sort of realism a cap movie should have.

A Nazi with a messed up face is far more realistc than space aliens allied with the nazis. Cap fighting a human being who is his complete ideological opposite is far more interesting and real then him fighting aliens. The Ultimates/Avengers fight aliens, Cap on his own should fight human beings with political agendas.

Edit: sorry, I was writing this before you all come to a different conclusion about the movie villain.

 

[ourchair]

The thing is the Red Skull is also way more pratical then Kleiser. Cap works best fighting human evils, terrorism and tyranny, not space aliens. Cap should be a somewhat realstic character, him fighting space aliens would ruin any sort of realism a cap movie should have.

A Nazi with a messed up face is far more realistc than space aliens allied with the nazis. Cap fighting a human being who is his complete ideological opposite is far more interesting and real then him fighting aliens. The Ultimates/Avengers fight aliens, Cap on his own should fight human beings with political agendas.

I already got your point the first time around.

I was never debating the whole aliens vs. a realistic villain business. I was merely disputing why alien-assisted Nazis does not equal less evil Nazis.

I was talking about substantial well-developed villains (Red Skull) vs. overly simple or throwaway ones (aliens).

Thank you for missing the point again by not actually paying attention to the second half of that post.

But then again, leave it to The Overlord to brow beat a point I never disagreed with.

 

[SSJmole]

I already got your point the first time around.

I was never debating the whole aliens vs. a realistic villain business. I was merely disputing why alien-assisted Nazis does not equal less evil Nazis.

Ah-ha , When you quoted the

Plus making aliens the power behind the third Reich kinda takes away from how evil the Nazis were supposed to be, IMO.

As SSJmole I've been trying to think "When did I post that?" turns out I didn't it was The Overlord


Not really relevant to convocation but been driving me nuts trying to figure it out :lol:

 

[ourchair]

Ah-ha , When you quoted the As SSJmole I've been trying to think "When did I post that?" turns out I didn't it was The Overlord


Not really relevant to convocation but been driving me nuts trying to figure it out :lol:

Wait, I'm confused... are you disagreeing with me... or are you saying you thought i was disagreeing with something you thought you said but didn't?

 

[SSJmole]

Wait, I'm confused... are you disagreeing with me... or are you saying you thought i was disagreeing with something you thought you said but didn't?

neither , I was just wondering about it , I read that and thought Ahhhhhh looked through topic till i found who did it say it. Not arguing or disagreeing I just found it funny as like i said I've just been trying to figure it out , now i have.

 

[ourchair]

neither , I was just wondering about it , I read that and thought Ahhhhhh looked through topic till i found who did it say it. Not arguing or disagreeing I just found it funny as like i said I've just been trying to figure it out , now i have.

I'm still confused.

I'll just stick with 'Mole thought he posted something but it turns out The Overlord did it' just for my own peace of mind.

Regardless of whether it's true or not.

Because my puny brain needs peace.

 

[The Overlord]

I already got your point the first time around.

I was never debating the whole aliens vs. a realistic villain business. I was merely disputing why alien-assisted Nazis does not equal less evil Nazis.

I was talking about substantial well-developed villains (Red Skull) vs. overly simple or throwaway ones (aliens).

Thank you for missing the point again by not actually paying attention to the second half of that post.

Jeeze sorry. I just thought you didn't address that point.

For purposes of time, a film would have to settle for a less developed version of the Skull anyway, they couldn't go into his past, like him growing in post WWI germany, there wouldn't be the time.

Also something I touched upon but you didn't address, is the iconic status of the Skull as Cap's arch nemesis. The Skull is cap's arch nmesis and has been since the 40s, he is Cap's Lex Luthor, to replace him with a throwaway villain would cause Cap fans to scream blue murder.

 

[ourchair]

Jeeze sorry.

For purposes of time, a film would have to settle for a less developed version of the Skull anyway, they couldn't go into his past, like him growing in post WWI germany, there wouldn't be the time.

If i didn't bring up the realism, it doesn't mean I disagreed with it.

Also something I touched upon but you didn't address, is the iconic status of the Skull as Cap's arch nemesis.

The reason I didn't touch upon it is because I never disagreed with that. As you should have figured out by now, when someone hasn't touched on a point, then it doesn't mean one has explicitly disagreed with it.

The Skull is cap's arch nmesis and has been since the 40s, he is Cap's Lex Luthor, to replace him with a throwaway villain would cause Cap fans to scream blue murder.

This I disagree with.

A movie with Cap and the Red Skull would be great. Doesn't mean a great movie with Cap HAS to have the Red Skull.

Let me put it this way... does a great Fantastic Four movie HAVE to have Doctor Doom? Does a great Superman movie HAVE to have Lex Luthor?

Agreeing with those questions doesn't mean that you're saying that a Fantastic Four movie SHOULDN'T have Doom... or that a Superman movie SHOULDN'T have Lex. It's just saying you can make a great movie without them.

That said, I'm saying you can make a great Cap movie without the Red Skull. And so far you haven't actually stopped to make a really good pitch about the Red Skull, other than justifying his importance to Captain America in the comics and to fans.

 

[Grocer Man]

If i didn't bring up the realism, it doesn't mean I disagreed with it.

This I disagree with.

A movie with Cap and the Red Skull would be great. Doesn't mean a great movie with Cap HAS to have the Red Skull.

Let me put it this way... does a great Fantastic Four movie HAVE to have Doctor Doom? Does a great Superman movie HAVE to have Lex Luthor?

Agreeing with those questions doesn't mean that you're saying that a Fantastic Four movie SHOULDN'T have Doom... or that a Superman movie SHOULDN'T have Lex. It's just saying you can make a great movie without them.

That said, I'm saying you can make a great Cap movie without the Red Skull. And so far you haven't actually stopped to make a really good pitch about the Red Skull, other than justifying his importance to Captain America in the comics and to fans.

:? Does Cap even have any other villains?

Other than Winter Soldier.

Or Nixon.

 

[ourchair]

:? Does Cap even have any other villains?

Other than Winter Soldier.

Or Nixon.

Hail HYDRA!

Seriously, there's this podcast interview with Brubaker I listened to once where he said he found it puzzling that Cap had to meet a 'REAL' Middle Eastern terrorist behind attacks on American soil... when it would have made just as much sense if it were HYDRA.

 

[The Overlord]

If i didn't bring up the realism, it doesn't mean I disagreed with it.

The reason I didn't touch upon it is because I never disagreed with that. As you might have figured by now, my M.O. is that if I haven't touched on a point, then I haven't explicitly disagreed with it.

This I disagree with.

A movie with Cap and the Red Skull would be great. Doesn't mean a great movie with Cap HAS to have the Red Skull.

Let me put it this way... does a great Fantastic Four movie HAVE to have Doctor Doom? Does a great Superman movie HAVE to have Lex Luthor?

Agreeing with those questions doesn't mean that you're saying that a Fantastic Four movie SHOULDN'T have Doom... or that a Superman movie SHOULDN'T have Lex. It's just saying you can make a great movie without them.

That said, I'm saying you can make a great Cap movie without the Red Skull. And so far you haven't actually stopped to make a really good pitch about the Red Skull, other than justifying his importance to Captain America in the comics and to fans.

Sorry I didn't know that was your style.

Anyway if you notice, almost every super hero movie starts out with the arch nemesis as the villain, another villain could be the main villain in the second film, but the first one almost always has the arch nemesis as the villain, its just how you start a film series:

Superman I-Luthor
BatmanI-Joker
X-Men I-Magneto
Spider-Man I-Green goblin

You always start out with your biggest gun and Skull is the biggest villain Cap has. You can't be sure you will get a sequel, so you always use your biggest gun first. That's why Firefly wasn't the villain in the first Batman movie.

If you ask why ask the Red Skull, I could ask why Klesier? One could argue, make not make Baron Zemo the villain? I think the fact that most of the good Cap stories involved the Skull and he has been his nemesis for 60 years, should count for something.

:? Does Cap even have any other villains?

Other than Winter Soldier.

Or Nixon.

Baron Zemo? No, wait he's not a villain anymore.

Here's the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemies_of_Captain_America

You get past the Skull, it gets a little thin.

 

[ourchair]

Sorry I didn't know that was your style.

It's not a style, it's an observation you should make based on fact that you can't assume someone has disagreed with something simply because he hasn't said it... even if he has disagreed with all the other points.

You always start out with your biggest gun and Skull is the biggest villain Cap has. You can't be sure you will get a sequel, so you always use your biggest gun first. That's why Firefly wasn't the villain in the first Batman movie.

The problem I've always had with that is that you end up having diminishing guns.

Unless you happen to be Batman, who has the luxury of choosing varied big guns for each film... which is why it was still possible to do a film that didn't have Two-Face or Joker in it (and admit it, Ras al Ghul ISN'T an iconic Batman villain to the general public, and neither is the Scarecrow)

Singer on the other hand, was smart because he found a villain (Stryker, and the support of a large American black ops division) that was just as threatening as Magneto, but still thematically resonant.

But in any case, a big gun nemesis is a problem if you have nothing left to play for future movies. At this point, I'm not talking about how this theory applies to Cap (and honestly, I DO think Cap would need a decent gun in his first movie, Red Skull or otherwise) but to superhero movies in general.

Think of a hypothetical Daredevil trilogy that has him facing Elektra in a lovers or enemies movie, only to end with her being killed by Bullseye... and then Bullseye is the villain of a personal nature (OMG! You killed my girl!) and then his defeat leads to the Kingpin.

Let's say we're not looking at a Captain America movie as a one off thing, what do you do after Red Skull? Diamondback? Batroc the Leaper?

IMO, one way of giving Cap REAL threats without taking away from Red Skull would be to have HYDRA or AIM thrown into his movie stories, while injecting them with a palpably real world sensibility a la 24.

 

[Random]

Sorry I didn't know that was your style.

Anyway if you notice, almost every super hero movie starts out with the arch nemesis as the villain, another villain could be the main villain in the second film, but the first one almost always has the arch nemesis as the villain, its just how you start a film series:

Superman I-Luthor
BatmanI-Joker
X-Men I-Magneto
Spider-Man I-Green goblin

Look at Batman Begins, though Joker is much more recognized as Batman's Major villain, Ras Al Ghul can substitute and still make a great movie. Studios usually put their best foot forward having the number one villain appeardoesn't mean it has to.

Baron Zemo? No, wait he's not a villain anymore.

Here's the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemies_of_Captain_America

You get past the Skull, it gets a little thin.

Cap doesn't really have any villains that have more emotional/dramatic impact on him since most of the ones he fought in the forties are not contemporary, and the ones he fought post ice are more like Avengers villains. That's the main problem