All-Star Superman Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[John Q. Public]

Birthright was the biggest crock of **** to happen to Superman since his death. There was no need to give Superman yet another origin. It felt like they just wrote it to tie Smallville into the comics. And don't get me started on the whole complex Lex Luthor-making-holographic-Kryptonian-ships crap.

Wait! What was "Birthright" and how did it change the most worn-out origin in history? 'splain, please.

 

[Doc Comic]

And I'm about to kill John Q. Public for playing stupid in a bunch of different threads.

 

[John Q. Public]

...I think I'm going to go vote in that poll now...

Kaufman.

OK. This is the second time somebody said I was somebody named Kaufman. Cough it up.

And I'm about to kill John Q. Public for playing stupid in a bunch of different threads.

Thanks for pointing out a pattern of which I was unware of. Happy it annoys you.

 

[DIrishB]

You did? I missed that.

I did.

This is why I am maddened by the current trend of decompressed arcs. You can, in 12-issues, get to really know a character from the start, watch them grow, and change. 20 years ago, if in 12-issues you couldn't do that, you didn't have a job. I'm trying really hard here not fly off the handle, but sufficed to say - buying a 12-issue mini-series and thinking it won't grant you the opportunity for catching a story from the start and watching the characters within it grow and change is just - well, it saddens me.

But thats not at all what I'm saying. I just think the opportunity to see a gradual, realistic, and more relatable change is less likely in a mini. You're arguing in very absolute terms, and I'm just pointing out why I'd like to see an ongoing, updated for modern times type approach to the character. You're acting like I'm slamming this story and not willing to give it a chance, which is the furthest thing from the truth.

Wasn't bad. It's exactly what you're after - you really ought to get it. It's only twelve issues, but if you ignore that aspect, it is exactly what you're asking for.

I'll start with All Star Superman and go from there.

He's changed more than Spidey has in 40, really.

How so? Honestly, like I said I never got into the comics, so I really would like to know.

As an actual character, true character change or morals, passions, and desires - he hasn't, not really. But then neither has Spider-Man or any other mainstream superhero, since it's somewhat inappropriate to the genre.

I agree with that. Hence me not being into 616 Spidey either.

As for the new DC universe that takes on classic characters - Seven Soldiers of Victory is that, on a smaller scale. What you're asking for is called "One Year Later". It is a huge reset button for newbies to jump onto and catch all these new stories from the new beginning of the DC universe. (I think.)

I've read about that. Isn't there also supposed to be a series tentatively called "52" which shows what happens during that year?

My attitude was also not me being a purist, nor a fanboy, but maddened that I thought someone was refusing to pick up All-Star Superman because it didn't retell an origin that is being retold in at least two mediums at the moment, and wasn't long enough. Had I been aware you were picking up the title, I wouldn't have been so incensed.

I gotcha. I didn't think I gave that impression, but if I did I apologize. I tend to respect the members' opinions here on the board, and it was actually your review couple with a few others which prompted me to want to check AS Superman out.

My problem (and it is my problem) is that you are essentially asking for a 'trendy' Superman - no continuity, revamped, streamlined, ongoing, etc - which is not only being done, but is a current trend in the mainstream superhero genre ignited by Hollywood's current and no doubt, short-lived infatuation with superheroes and the success of the Ultimate titles. The tragedy of this is - all the recent superhero films are, at best, just mediocre - okay, entertaning to some extent, but certainly too long and uninspiring, like Daredevil, Spider-Man, Batman Begins, and X-Men. There isn't a truly good one among them that will ever stand the test of time like films from other genres. Those that aren't mediocre or a bit better than average, are atrocious, like Fantastic Four. Then there's Hulk which tried to be a brilliant film, and shot itself in the foot by being ridiculously boring and 'character-driven' - but at least it tried.

I agree about the films, but I'm not asking for a "trendy" take on Superman. It has more to do with me being a completist elitist (like how that rhymed?). I enjoy being able to have a firm grasp on the entirety of a character and the universe they dwell in, which is impossible to do at this point in either DC or 616 Marvel. My wanting an ongoing, new take on Superman and other titles has nothing to do with not wanting continuity (as you should know by now from the many timelines I post, I'm a bit obsessed with it), or the title to be "streamlined", as you put it. Do I want it to be a fresh start and more accessible, with possibly a slightly different approach but not overall change to the character? Yes.

One of the most important aspects of Superman that I think is often over-shadowed by his do-gooder attitude is the fact that he's an alien making a life on our planet. Not to say this hasn't been touched on or explored in the past (even in great detail), just that I think it should be a defining aspect of who he is. I want to see his motivations explored from the beginning which shape him into the hero he becomes. And while Smallville might offer that, I'm more interested in the hero aspect of the character, not a 90210-esque approach about him as a high school student. I want to see him question why he does what he does, to what end? I also want him to question what the world would be like were he not to do it. I also want to see a certain regret and remorse over the fact that the very race of people he tries to help also spawn some of his greatest enemies. I want to see his eternal hope and optimism come into question.

Like I said, I'm sure these points have all been explored before, but often by different writers with their own take on the character. I'd like to see a creative team have a nice long run on the character and really explore the darker side of Superman, without making it some depressing Truman Capote like story.

The best superhero film to come out recently is The Incredibles, which has the important distinction of not being based on a comic book.

I'm going to have to get around to seeing that, everyone I talk to says it was a great movie.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the Ultimate line is just boring too. Ultimate Iron Man is a joke. The Ultimate Gah Lak Tus Trlogy is an empty threat, because of it's schedule and lack of consistency with other Ultimate titles. Ultimate Fantastic Four is, instead of being fantastic, a cliche. Ultimate X-Men was quite good, but nothing groundbreaking or industry shaping. Ultimate Spider-Man is now awful, despite having genuinely clever moments every now and again. The Ultimates, the best of the line by a long way, has become tired and annoying because it doesn't come out, and is to be followed up by two creators who's previous track record are far from desirable.

I agree on all points (especially concerning the shipping lateness, as I'm also one of the most vocal complainers about the constant delays of the Ultimates titles), just not to as severe a degree as I believe you view it.

If that wasn't bad enough, Superman: Man of Steel, was for all intensive purposes, "Ultimate Superman" and it was done in the early 80s. Here we are, 20 years later, and people want a new revamping of continuity. I think that alone proves just how short-lived the Ultimate universe is.

Eh, we'll see. Most fans thought the Ultimate line would die out within the first few months, but here we are over 5 years later and almost every title is a consitently strong seller. Though if the constant delays continue I don't doubt many fans will drop the titles and the Ultimate line will go the way of the dodo.

And people, like yourself, are asking the comics industry to ape these two short-lived, and artistically-failed enterprises.

The Ultimate line is only short-lived because its young, not because it was a failed venture by any means. Like I said, it tends to outsell its 616 counterparts. And artistically-failed? Just remember without it you wouldn't have your precious Ultimates.

I'm just asking for a different but not extremely alien take on the DC characters without decades of pre-established continuity, thats all. And I could get that from reading any "out-of-continuity" or Elseworlds stories, I know, but thats still truly not what I'm looking for.

*U2's "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" plays in the background*

And tell me you wouldn't at least give an "Ultimate" DC line a chance. And assuming it was up to your standards, tell me you wouldn't continue to buy it. Because if so that kind of makes you out to be a bit of a hypocrite.

One of the only superhero comics I'm really enjoying right now, is All-Star Superman, and here I thought, you weren't buying it because it's not trendy - but in fact, you are giving it a shot, and I, through my ranting, have probably ruined some of the enjoyment from it for you. Yay me.

Nah, not at all. I can respect your viewpoint, and wouldn't even entertain the notion that its wrong. I'm just asking you to do the same for me.

As I said, it's my problem, but that's how I see things from up here on this high horse of mine.

Just don't fall off.

I liked this new Sentry-like character, but was confused by the first four panels. "Doomed planet" -- what planet? Uranus? "Desperate scientists" -- what are they desperate about? Are they boyfriend and girlfriend? Third panel -- I forget.
Fourth panel -- Kindly coupla hillbillies, look like Jed and Granny Clampet.

Then we see this guy in a costume flying. WTF? And he is immeasurably strong. And some scientist is creating monsters to replace him, because he flew into the sun and caught a bad virus.

And who is this Clark dude? What does he have to do with the Sentry-like character? Why are there oranges spilled on the sidewalk in the last panel?

Don't get it. Was this guy bitten by a radioactive spider, stuffed full of super-soldier serum, or cursed with the X gene? Gamma rays? And why does he look so fat?

Confused by everything. Reminds me of "Evolve or Die," which started months ago.

And I'm the one taking **** from Bass. *shakes head*

And I agree with Bass. This series establishes everything .Theres really no need for any drawn out arc establishing things we already know. And if you wan that get the Superman: Birthright trade. A good read by Mark Waid establishing and building everything you seem to want.

I don't feel an origin story is necessarily drawn out. Depends on how its written of course, but like I said a four panel origin isn't going to offer that early character evolution I was talking about (in regards to AS Superman). That doesn't mean I won't like the book, just saying in regards to what I'm looking for. As for Birthright, I'll probably pick up that trade after I grab the first couple of issues of AS Superman.

This Sentry dude is called "Superman?" Geez. That's like a ripoff of George Bernard Shaw's "Man and Superman." Which is like 80 years old. Why not some other name, like, "UltraMan" or, hell, "Thor." Or "He-Man?" Superman. Sheesh. You serious?

You never grasped the fine art of taking a lame joke too far, huh?

Birthright was the biggest crock of **** to happen to Superman since his death. There was no need to give Superman yet another origin. It felt like they just wrote it to tie Smallville into the comics. And don't get me started on the whole complex Lex Luthor-making-holographic-Kryptonian-ships crap.

And Doc chimes in with his usual optimistic tone. Hmmm, now I'm a bit wary of checking out Birthright, but we'll see. I'll ask around, see what others think of it.

But rest assured, Bass, I'll definitly be picking up AS Superman.

 

[John Q. Public]

You never grasped the fine art of taking a lame joke too far, huh?

Nope. Thanks for noticing.

 

[DIrishB]

Nope. Thanks for noticing.

It what I was born to do...that is, notice and point out others faults.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

This Sentry dude is called "Superman?" Geez. That's like a ripoff of George Bernard Shaw's "Man and Superman." Which is like 80 years old. Why not some other name, like, "UltraMan" or, hell, "Thor." Or "He-Man?" Superman. Sheesh. You serious?

Wow. Wow. They announced the next writer on Ultimate Superman.

Here's the link:


http://www.hatrack.com/osc/about.shtml

Can JQP get banned for such Blasphemy?

...

yeah.

And anyways, i don't have a problem with Birthright, if anything it's reestablishing some of the pre-crisis origins of Superman (which is why it's becoming the new official origin, methinks), because the Earth-2 Superman met Lex as a kid... It was an accident from when the two of them were friends that made lex go bald.

And It reestablishes Lex as simultaneously the evil genius of Earth 2 and the corporate leader of the post-crisis earth.

(keep in mind, they've had Identity Crisis on their minds for quite some time now)

The other issue is that as long as they want superman to be somewhere from his late 20's to late 30's, he will be a constantly reinvented character.

I think that's good, because it makes him more meaningful for the new generations...

 

[DIrishB]

Can JQP get banned for such Blasphemy?

...

yeah.

And anyways, i don't have a problem with Birthright, if anything it's reestablishing some of the pre-crisis origins of Superman (which is why it's becoming the new official origin, methinks), because the Earth-2 Superman met Lex as a kid... It was an accident from when the two of them were friends that made lex go bald.

And It reestablishes Lex as simultaneously the evil genius of Earth 2 and the corporate leader of the post-crisis earth.

(keep in mind, they've had Identity Crisis on their minds for quite some time now)

The other issue is that as long as they want superman to be somewhere from his late 20's to late 30's, he will be a constantly reinvented character.

I think that's good, because it makes him more meaningful for the new generations...

Bass is gonna tear into you for that last sentence.

And its all the multiple reality stuff which puts me off about regular DC and prompts me to want a wholly separate and new universe created. I don't want to have to worry about 78 different Earths/dimensions (or however many there are) and the characters associated with each.

But this is also why I'll be picking up AS Superman.

 

[randomthoughts]

Picked this up, put it down, read an issue of USM which actually has something relevant to say. I wish DC would address a wider social context in their books. I love Vertigo and Wildstorm for this reason, but so far DCs all star line has no modern context or relevance like the Ultimate line established in three of their four titles. I'm simply not interested in a Superman tale or a Batman tale that occus in limbo.

 

[E]

Picked this up, put it down, read an issue of USM which actually has something relevant to say. I wish DC would address a wider social context in their books. I love Vertigo and Wildstorm for this reason, but so far DCs all star line has no modern context or relevance like the Ultimate line established in three of their four titles. I'm simply not interested in a Superman tale or a Batman tale that occus in limbo.

No offense, but I can't imagine needing a story to mean something to enjoy it. Why can't it just be an entertaining story? And that's not even to say theses bookes won't; we're only 2 issues into the oldest one.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Picked this up, put it down, read an issue of USM which actually has something relevant to say. I wish DC would address a wider social context in their books. I love Vertigo and Wildstorm for this reason, but so far DCs all star line has no modern context or relevance like the Ultimate line established in three of their four titles. I'm simply not interested in a Superman tale or a Batman tale that occus in limbo.

I believe that you honestly believe that...

But I don't believe the first six words of that statement at all.

And what is the social context of a book like the Books of Magic? or Hellblazer? or even Preacher (which is highly enjoyable, mostly because its a big action flick on paper)?

Notice how those are the two Vertigo titles I mention, because they all occur outside the mainstream Vertigo universe and the mainstream DC Universe. Books of Magic and Hellblazer in particular take place right in the blurred line between the two...

What is wrong with an honest to God good story appearing in so-called limbo, when they haven't been able to pull together a good Superman story in almost a decade?

And anyways, how is a story about hope and legacy, one that will probably have a happy ending that makes you feel better about being a person (in a highly morrisonized way), not having social relevance?

In a world of darkness and decay, what's wrong with optimism and hope?

EDIT: And -honestly- now, what SINGLE ISSUE of an Ultimate Spiderman issue has anything to say??!

 

[Bass]

How so? Honestly, like I said I never got into the comics, so I really would like to know.

Okay, Superman was originally, quite happy to kill supervillains back in the 40s, while Grant Morrison, talking about AS Superman stated, "Superman doesn't kill. Ever." a view shared by a lot of people it would seem. (An aside - a completely imperceptible costume change occured - Superman's cape in AS Superman is much shorter than normal. Somewhere along the way, his cape grew to its more standard size.) Superman properly died. I know he came back, but he was dead for a couple of months at least and all his titles featured other Superman characters in his stead (Steel, Superboy, Cyborg, and Eradicator) while he, himself, did not appear. Superman has had all kinds of weird powers come and go (for example, in his first appearance, Superman could not fly) and even gains a new power in AS Superman #1. Also, his powers have waxed and waned at various points - sometimes he can punch a planet, other times, he has trouble lifting a commercial plane. Not only that, but Superman has been powerless (and used huge mega-guns as well) and at other times, had electric powers that made him blue, resulting in a complete change of his appearance and powers. That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

I never said the changes were good.

I've read about that. Isn't there also supposed to be a series tentatively called "52" which shows what happens during that year?

THAT'S IT. Thanks, I'd forgotten the name.

I gotcha. I didn't think I gave that impression, but if I did I apologize. I tend to respect the members' opinions here on the board, and it was actually your review couple with a few others which prompted me to want to check AS Superman out.

I think it was more me just yelling without paying attention to other people. I do that, you know.

I agree about the films, but I'm not asking for a "trendy" take on Superman.

I only meant 'trendy' in the literal sense that the current trend is to do 'ultimised' continuity, and you want it to be that kind of Superman, as opposed to the connotation of 'trendy hollywood' or what-have-you. It was kind of a non-judgemental statement.

One of the most important aspects of Superman that I think is often over-shadowed by his do-gooder attitude is the fact that he's an alien making a life on our planet. Not to say this hasn't been touched on or explored in the past (even in great detail), just that I think it should be a defining aspect of who he is.

Kinda like Captain America's "Man Out of Time" thing. I agree 100% with you here. Christopher Reeve said that he always played Superman very much aware that he was not just a Kansas bumpkin in Metropolis, but an alien on Earth.

I want to see his motivations explored from the beginning which shape him into the hero he becomes. And while Smallville might offer that, I'm more interested in the hero aspect of the character, not a 90210-esque approach about him as a high school student. I want to see him question why he does what he does, to what end? I also want him to question what the world would be like were he not to do it. I also want to see a certain regret and remorse over the fact that the very race of people he tries to help also spawn some of his greatest enemies. I want to see his eternal hope and optimism come into question.

Smallville does suck.

Get Superman: Red Son. It answers all the questions you ask here, by changing the Superman mythos by having his spaceship land in Russia and not Kansas. It's written by Mark Millar and it's wonderful - and eternal. Superman: Red Son.

I'm going to have to get around to seeing that, everyone I talk to says it was a great movie.

Superb film. Wonderfully entertaining.

Eh, we'll see. Most fans thought the Ultimate line would die out within the first few months, but here we are over 5 years later and almost every title is a consitently strong seller. Though if the constant delays continue I don't doubt many fans will drop the titles and the Ultimate line will go the way of the dodo.

I don't think the Ultimate will die and be cancelled, I just mean how short-lived the novelty of a streamlined, fresh continuity is.

The Ultimate line is only short-lived because its young, not because it was a failed venture by any means. Like I said, it tends to outsell its 616 counterparts. And artistically-failed? Just remember without it you wouldn't have your precious Ultimates.

I specifically didn't say it was commercially-failed. And really, the line, I think is artistically-failed when only one title in the 6-title line is truly brilliant.

And tell me you wouldn't at least give an "Ultimate" DC line a chance. And assuming it was up to your standards, tell me you wouldn't continue to buy it. Because if so that kind of makes you out to be a bit of a hypocrite.

I'd give it a chance, definately. And if it was truly good - you're damn right I'd continue to buy it. I'm not against an "Ultimate" DC line (and they should call it "Infinite DC") in raw concept, but I think that it just sounds to me, like a marketing ploy and not an artistic endeavour. And considering I don't buy crossovers, I can't stand marketing ploys. But you're right, I would've bought House of M or Infinite Crisis if I didn't think they were trash.

Nah, not at all. I can respect your viewpoint, and wouldn't even entertain the notion that its wrong. I'm just asking you to do the same for me.

That you want Infinite Superman? I can respect that, no problem. As I said, the reason I was so... vehement was because I thought you were doing something you weren't doing - which was a misunderstanding on my behalf.

 

[Friday]

OK. This is the second time somebody said I was somebody named Kaufman. Cough it up.

Yeah, that was me too. Andy Kaufman? Ringing any bells? Was voted off SNL? Come on, Man in the Moon!

I can't be that old.

Anyway.

Picked this up, put it down, read an issue of USM which actually has something relevant to say. I wish DC would address a wider social context in their books. I love Vertigo and Wildstorm for this reason, but so far DCs all star line has no modern context or relevance like the Ultimate line established in three of their four titles. I'm simply not interested in a Superman tale or a Batman tale that occus in limbo.

...What has Ultimate Spider-Man said thats relevent in its 80 some issues? It's a good teen drama, with the occasional great action scene, but theres nothing in it thats overly powerful. I'm honestly curious as to what you found profound or meaning ful in it.

 

[Entropy]

Yeah, that was me too. Andy Kaufman? Ringing any bells?

Why are you comparing him to Andy Kaufman? Why don't you call him Clay or somebody equally unfunny?

 

[Friday]

Why are you comparing him to Andy Kaufman? Why don't you call him Clay or somebody equally unfunny?

Just for the vote thing. But then Kaufman never knew when a joke went too far either...

ALL STAR SUPERMAN ROCKS!

 

[moonmaster]

Picked this up, put it down, read an issue of USM which actually has something relevant to say. I wish DC would address a wider social context in their books. I love Vertigo and Wildstorm for this reason, but so far DCs all star line has no modern context or relevance like the Ultimate line established in three of their four titles. I'm simply not interested in a Superman tale or a Batman tale that occus in limbo.

I think you're missing the point.

AS Superman is meant to be timeless. Morrison has done plenty of social and political commentary, but this story is supposed to be something you could read in 100 years and still understand its message. Morrison is simply trying to write a book that plays to basic human emotions and inspires people to change the world around them rather than make them think about how much it sucks. Its about hope and courage and they'res no better hero to deliver a message like that than Superman. Unlike USM, AS Superman is meant to be relevant to everyone at any time instead of just modern audiences.

 

[Pandrio]

they'res

there's
But, otherwise, well said Mooney.

 

[DIrishB]

No offense, but I can't imagine needing a story to mean something to enjoy it. Why can't it just be an entertaining story? And that's not even to say theses bookes won't; we're only 2 issues into the oldest one.

I agree with that statement, but I also like to see an underlying message. So I can go either way basically.

Okay, Superman was originally, quite happy to kill supervillains back in the 40s, while Grant Morrison, talking about AS Superman stated, "Superman doesn't kill. Ever." a view shared by a lot of people it would seem. (An aside - a completely imperceptible costume change occured - Superman's cape in AS Superman is much shorter than normal. Somewhere along the way, his cape grew to its more standard size.) Superman properly died. I know he came back, but he was dead for a couple of months at least and all his titles featured other Superman characters in his stead (Steel, Superboy, Cyborg, and Eradicator) while he, himself, did not appear. Superman has had all kinds of weird powers come and go (for example, in his first appearance, Superman could not fly) and even gains a new power in AS Superman #1. Also, his powers have waxed and waned at various points - sometimes he can punch a planet, other times, he has trouble lifting a commercial plane. Not only that, but Superman has been powerless (and used huge mega-guns as well) and at other times, had electric powers that made him blue, resulting in a complete change of his appearance and powers. That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

I never said the changes were good.

Those sound more like gimmicks than changes.

Kinda like Captain America's "Man Out of Time" thing. I agree 100% with you here. Christopher Reeve said that he always played Superman very much aware that he was not just a Kansas bumpkin in Metropolis, but an alien on Earth.

I never really got that impression from Chris Reeve's interpretation of the character, but I haven't seen them in years.

I don't think the Ultimate will die and be cancelled, I just mean how short-lived the novelty of a streamlined, fresh continuity is.

Good point.

I specifically didn't say it was commercially-failed. And really, the line, I think is artistically-failed when only one title in the 6-title line is truly brilliant.

Another good point.

I'd give it a chance, definately. And if it was truly good - you're damn right I'd continue to buy it. I'm not against an "Ultimate" DC line (and they should call it "Infinite DC") in raw concept, but I think that it just sounds to me, like a marketing ploy and not an artistic endeavour. And considering I don't buy crossovers, I can't stand marketing ploys. But you're right, I would've bought House of M or Infinite Crisis if I didn't think they were trash.

Good idea on the "Infinite" tag.

Yeah, that was me too. Andy Kaufman? Ringing any bells? Was voted off SNL? Come on, Man in the Moon!

I can't be that old.

Anyway.

Thats an insult to Andy Kaufman.

...What has Ultimate Spider-Man said thats relevent in its 80 some issues? It's a good teen drama, with the occasional great action scene, but theres nothing in it thats overly powerful. I'm honestly curious as to what you found profound or meaning ful in it.

He liked the "With great power, comes great responsibility" line. He found it quite profound.

 

[John Q. Public]

Back a little bit on topic, one of the more original angles on this take on Supes is how he's a man of few words. No pontificating. Very terse. The brainy guy goes "I don't know how I should tell you this," and he says "just give it to me straight." Sort of Clint Eastwood in a cape.

And there's no emotional soul-searching when he gets the news. Gives the impression he's a very tough, taciturn character. No wasted words. Overall, in fact, there's an economy in the dialogue in general that's a nice break from the usual stuff. Like that Kevin Smith preview of the Black Cat thing. Blah, blah, blah.

Another nice touch is Superman has this very subtle, sardonic sense of humor. Like when the bomb guy calls him a fascist for preventing him from realizing his potential as a bomb, and Supes--as he pushes the guy away from the ship--says "But I'm to help you with that."

The little "working on my suntan" alibi toward the end was also a sign that this is a different guy altogether. Doesn't say much, but the wheels are turning. I agree with fnord -- never could stand the guy--but this character is almost relateable. He also figures that if he's going to pack it in, might as well go for a little bit of Lois on the way out.

 

[fnord]

This saved the All-Star line.

This makes me want to read Superman Comics, and i HATE Superman comics.

Best Superman Evor.