Who makes for a better nemesis for Cap, Kleiser or the Red Skull?

[ourchair]

The poblem is the Red Skull would really redundant in the Ultimate Universe, Kleiser has already been established as Cap's WWII nemesis and the threat from the past. What role would the Red skull serve in the UU? Some guy with a Skull mask who robs bank and gets beat up in one panel?

In the 616 universe, the Red Skull is the most evil human being in the world, that's his whole thing. If he isn't Cap's WWII nemesis how would that work in the UU?

Kleiser wasn't really much of a nemesis as he was a 'figure from the past' that made sense in the thirteen issues that introduced him, made him disappear, and then come back.

In effect, it means that there's NOTHING that stops Ultimate Red Skull entering the Ultimate continuity in a similar capacity as his 616 counterpart... a crazy Nazi threat from the past... after all, no one ever said Ultimate Captain America fought only ONE super-villain... the opening to Ultimates vol. 1 explicitly mentions at least three other missions that Cap had fought prior to the rocket incident.

Eh, that reminds me of the lame communist Red Skull. Almost every communist villain is lame, they come off as about as interesting as Captain Planet villains, they come across one dimensional and boring. Why not just introduce Ultimate Red Ghost or something instead.

"I will get you, you exploitor of the working class!" God, after 91 most of those 616 coimmunist villains became politically irrelevant. seriously communism is dead, the chinese are communist in name only, you can't have Nike factors and still be a coimmunist.

Eh, that reminds me of the lane Nazi Red Skull. Almost every Nazi villain is lame, they come off as about as interesting as Captain Planet villains, they come across one dimensional and boring. Why not just introduce Ultimate Swarm or something instead.

"I will get you, you promoter of the Jewish rights!" God, after 45 most of these 616 Nazi villains became politically irrelevant. Seriously, nazism, fascism and racism are dead. You can't have factories in China or Taiwan and be a Nazi.

 

[The Overlord]

Kleiser wasn't really much of a nemesis as he was a 'figure from the past' that made sense in the thirteen issues that introduced him, made him disappear, and then come back.

In effect, it means that there's NOTHING that stops Ultimate Red Skull entering the Ultimate continuity in a similar capacity as his 616 counterpart... a crazy Nazi threat from the past... after all, no one ever said Ultimate Captain America fought only ONE super-villain... the opening to Ultimates vol. 1 explicitly mentions at least three other missions that Cap had fought prior to the rocket incident..

The problem is we already had two Nazi villains come from the past for cap to fight, I rather wouldn't want a parade of nazi villains.

Eh, that reminds me of the lane Nazi Red Skull. Almost every Nazi villain is lame, they come off as about as interesting as Captain Planet villains, they come across one dimensional and boring. Why not just introduce Ultimate Swarm or something instead.

"I will get you, you promoter of the Jewish rights!" God, after 45 most of these 616 Nazi villains became politically irrelevant. Seriously, nazism, fascism and racism are dead. You can't have factories in China or Taiwan and be a Nazi.

Very funny, but the fact is most Nazi villans are lame, there are way too many nazis running around the 616 universe and someone like Baron Strucker always struck me as the poor man's Red Skull and someone like Captain nazi is pretty lame too. Most of them are very lame.

The Red Skull isn't even a nazi anymore, he is a nihilist.

 

[ourchair]

The problem is we already had two Nazi villains come from the past for cap to fight, I rather wouldn't want a parade of nazi villains.

Oh gosh, that must be such a problem. Then how hard would it be to use non-Nazi villains for two-three arcs THEN bring in Red Skull?

 

[SSJmole]

couldn't it work for ultimate Red skull to not be Nazi but be inolved with the current war with Iraq or involved with Al-Qaeda as it would suit the idea that Ultimate = more modern but still true to roots.


That or he could be the other guys secret boss we never knew about

 

[Random]

I don't know. The Skull is so evil in the 616 universe, its hard for me to see him as something else. Its like having non pure evil of Joker or Green Goblin, Ultimate Gobby may have different powers, but the fundamanmental personality is the same.

How would Ultimate Red Skull work in the UU at this point. I rather wouldn't they make him sympathetic or something.

If it was Millar introducing him, there would be no doubts he'd be a good character

 

[Joe Kalicki]

If it was Millar introducing him, there would be no doubts he'd be a good character

Like all the "good characters" in the Liberators?

 

[Bass]

Wait wait wait.

I thought we already had Ultimate Red Skull in the Islamic dude? I thought the whole point of something like Kleiser was to go, "We've done the Nazi thing so we can now have the Red Skull be a great Cap villain but not necessarily, a Nazi".

If it was between the Ultimate Red Skull and Kleiser - I say Kleiser.

Nazis are always much more entertaining than Al-Qaeda.

 

[ProjectX2]

I thought we already had Ultimate Red Skull in the Islamic dude?

I think that was supposed to be Ultimate Red Skull, but it was never stated, so another writer (see: Jeph Loeb) could come along in Ultimates 3-7 and introduce another Ultimate Red Skull.

 

[Bass]

 

[Random]

Wait wait wait.

I thought we already had Ultimate Red Skull in the Islamic dude? I thought the whole point of something like Kleiser was to go, "We've done the Nazi thing so we can now have the Red Skull be a great Cap villain but not necessarily, a Nazi".

If it was between the Ultimate Red Skull and Kleiser - I say Kleiser.

Nazis are always much more entertaining than Al-Qaeda.

That guy was called The Colonel, nothing other than the color of his uniform and his position as opposite of Cap shows he's the red skull

 

[fenway]

Can't the Colonel just be the Colonel? and not 'Ultimate fill-in-the-blank"?

I would love for the Ultimate U to have some of their own villains, that aren't just 'versions' of 616 ones. Geldoff was, and sucked. Can't the Colonel be one, and be cool? (dead cool)

I understand that the main allure of this Universe is in the 're-imaging' of some (actually most) characters... but that's what I like about 'Ultimates' as opposed to the other titles. Its not just 'Remember that cool Venom arc in 616 Spidey? We're ultimizing it. Then, remember that Hammerhead arc in 616? We're re-doing that next.' Ultimates was somewhat original, diverging from the source(s) in a less superficial way.

 

[DIrishB]

Red Skull III, Albert Malik, was a communist and he was lame in my opinion.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/rskul2.htm

I'd never even heard of him.

Russia is just becomming as generic police state, not a communist state. Putin is a nationalist and is establisinhing a nationalist government, he has no interest in a international workers movement. An ultra nationalist trying take over Russia would be more politically relevant.

You just wiki'd that, huh?

Name one interesting communist villain in all of comic books, ever. They are almost always lame political sterotypes, about as deep as a Captain Planet villain.

You said that already. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done.

Also I have read the Communist manfesto and child labor is strickly forbidden in purposed prole dictatorship. The Chinese are about as Communist as a Christian who who doesn't think Jesus is the son of God. There are rules to being a communist,sif you don;t follow them, you are not a communist.

Communism was also supposed to solve all the world's problems (social, economic, political, etc), yet failed to do so. Does this mean there's never been a Communist...EVER?

You have to apply a certain amount of realism to real life, man.

Considering one was from north Korea and they had red fists as their logo, I think a few commies were on the team.

No, that'd mean ONE was on the team. And since that character's political views were not addressed, you're only assuming.

Besides Cap already fought a bunch of commies in Ultimate Nightmare.

He fought one guy who was. The others were pretty much mindless beasts.

Red Son Superman.

POINT...

Kleiser wasn't really much of a nemesis as he was a 'figure from the past' that made sense in the thirteen issues that introduced him, made him disappear, and then come back.

In effect, it means that there's NOTHING that stops Ultimate Red Skull entering the Ultimate continuity in a similar capacity as his 616 counterpart... a crazy Nazi threat from the past... after all, no one ever said Ultimate Captain America fought only ONE super-villain... the opening to Ultimates vol. 1 explicitly mentions at least three other missions that Cap had fought prior to the rocket incident.

SET...

Eh, that reminds me of the lane Nazi Red Skull. Almost every Nazi villain is lame, they come off as about as interesting as Captain Planet villains, they come across one dimensional and boring. Why not just introduce Ultimate Swarm or something instead.

"I will get you, you promoter of the Jewish rights!" God, after 45 most of these 616 Nazi villains became politically irrelevant. Seriously, nazism, fascism and racism are dead. You can't have factories in China or Taiwan and be a Nazi.

MATCH.

 

[Random]

Can't the Colonel just be the Colonel? and not 'Ultimate fill-in-the-blank"?

I would love for the Ultimate U to have some of their own villains, that aren't just 'versions' of 616 ones. Geldoff was, and sucked. Can't the Colonel be one, and be cool? (dead cool)

I understand that the main allure of this Universe is in the 're-imaging' of some (actually most) characters... but that's what I like about 'Ultimates' as opposed to the other titles. Its not just 'Remember that cool Venom arc in 616 Spidey? We're ultimizing it. Then, remember that Hammerhead arc in 616? We're re-doing that next.' Ultimates was somewhat original, diverging from the source(s) in a less superficial way.

Definitely, Millar to a look at the characters and concepts in many different angles and set it with the style and feel the UU should have.

 

[Bass]

"I will get you, you promoter of the Jewish rights!" God, after 45 most of these 616 Nazi villains became politically irrelevant. Seriously, nazism, fascism and racism are dead. You can't have factories in China or Taiwan and be a Nazi.

And just where is this wonderful fairy cake land where fascism and racism are dead?

 

[DIrishB]

And just where is this wonderful fairy cake land where fascism and racism are dead?

The White House.

 

[Bass]

IRONIC DETECTOR OVERLOAD!

*michael bay explosion*

 

[DIrishB]

IRONIC DETECTOR OVERLOAD!

*michael bay explosion*

*cues Aerosmith music*

 

[ourchair]

I think that was supposed to be Ultimate Red Skull, but it was never stated, so another writer (see: Jeph Loeb) could come along in Ultimates 3-7 and introduce another Ultimate Red Skull.

Ugh.

You're right though. I think this wouldn't be the first time a villain was intended to be an Ultimatization of a certain character, but then they'll find a way to make 'the real deal' later.

One not so proper example of this is how they brought in Ultimate Silver Surfer.

And just where is this wonderful fairy cake land where fascism and racism are dead?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/Imaginationland.jpg

EXACTLY.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

The Colonel guy didn't have a skull, red or not. Why would anybody even think he was Red Skull? I never got that impression from him at all.

 

[Ice]

The Colonel guy didn't have a skull, red or not. Why would anybody even think he was Red Skull? I never got that impression from him at all.

People thought it was him because Mark Millar said he was using Red Skull in the second arc of the series before it came out.