Who is more evil, Ultimate Hulk or the Maestro?

E said:
Symantics. The therapy itself doesn't mean anything, it's the desire for therapy. Many/most prisoners who get this kind of treatment have it as part of their sentence - I've never heard of a prisoner requesting it. We saw Banner in his cell, crying over what he had done, saying something along the lines of "at least I'm sitting in here 18 hours a day trying to do something about it."

It's the showing of remorse that makes the difference, not the application of therapy.
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My point is that the fact that he seeks out therapy can prove that he's more evil, not less, because as a very well-educated man, I have no doubts that Bruce is aware that there IS no practical treatment for antisocial personality disorder. Therefore, it can be argued that he is requesting the therapy because he is in fact evil and is using it to further feed his psychopathic tendencies.
 
jtg3885 said:
My point is that the fact that he seeks out therapy can prove that he's more evil, not less, because as a very well-educated man, I have no doubts that Bruce is aware that there IS no practical treatment for antisocial personality disorder. Therefore, it can be argued that he is requesting the therapy because he is in fact evil and is using it to further feed his psychopathic tendencies.
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Well educated man - yeah, but he's also an aggressive scientist who isn't likely to give up on something just because someone else says it can't be done. He never gave up work on the Captain America serum.

Besides there have been plenty of other instances where he has shown remorse other than just his therapy sessions: the speech he wrote for his funeral, his looking for the Buddhist monk guy to cure his condition, etc. etc.

All you're doing is turning this into a big "what if" - "what if" he was only getting therapy so that he could figure out how to be more evil? It light of the character and how he's been portrayed, the question doesn't realy make sense.
 
E said:
Well educated man - yeah, but he's also an aggressive scientist who isn't likely to give up on something just because someone else says it can't be done. He never gave up work on the Captain America serum.

Besides there have been plenty of other instances where he has shown remorse other than just his therapy sessions: the speech he wrote for his funeral, his looking for the Buddhist monk guy to cure his condition, etc. etc.

All you're doing is turning this into a big "what if" - "what if" he was only getting therapy so that he could figure out how to be more evil? It light of the character and how he's been portrayed, the question doesn't realy make sense.
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The whole point of the second issue of Hulk vs. Wolverine is the chicken vs. the egg question. Does Bruce turn into the Hulk, or does the Hulk turn into Bruce? And Bruce can now maintain his intellect while transformed. I think that it shows that the two minds aren't as separate as everyone else wants to believe.

I mean, what would you expect a person in his situation to be like? "Yup, I killed 'em. Ate some of 'em. It was fun too." They wouldn't have even needed a trial or somesuch, it would have been a simple matter to publicly execute him immediately after the Manhattan Incident. Instead, by expressing remorse and being given therapy, it bought him time to work on Hank Pym. Hank then misdosed him or something to that effect, allowing him to escape and be free in the world again.

Just because a psychopath is incapable of FEELING remorse does not mean they are incapable of EXPRESSING remorse.
 
cmdrjanjalani said:
Maestro's more evil. Hulk's senseless killings and bloodthirst isn't exactly coming from a rational mind, but one based on pure instinct.

For example, it would be much scarier to be confronted with an extremely ravenous lion than a terrorist, but the latter fully knows what he is doing while the lion simply sees you as food. If we use the same argument with the crazy Ultimates Vol.1 Hulk, we would be saying that the lion is more evil.
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Of course an animal like a lion almost always kills in order to survive. Ultimate Hulk is more like a rabid beast, a creature who kills out of bloodlust rather than survival instinct.

jtg3885 said:
The whole point of the second issue of Hulk vs. Wolverine is the chicken vs. the egg question. Does Bruce turn into the Hulk, or does the Hulk turn into Bruce? And Bruce can now maintain his intellect while transformed. I think that it shows that the two minds aren't as separate as everyone else wants to believe.

I mean, what would you expect a person in his situation to be like? "Yup, I killed 'em. Ate some of 'em. It was fun too." They wouldn't have even needed a trial or somesuch, it would have been a simple matter to publicly execute him immediately after the Manhattan Incident. Instead, by expressing remorse and being given therapy, it bought him time to work on Hank Pym. Hank then misdosed him or something to that effect, allowing him to escape and be free in the world again.

Just because a psychopath is incapable of FEELING remorse does not mean they are incapable of EXPRESSING remorse.
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But that's just hearsay. Your saying that Ultimate Banner may be a psychopath who is putting on act, maybe he is, but I doubt it and I see no conclusive proof of that. Compare that to the Maestro, who we know for sure is a psychopath and minus the eating people, has committed as many evil acts as Ultimate Hulk, perhaps even more.
 
Ultimate Fried said:
My opinion ultimat hulk is more evil, because anyone who eats innocents must be evil or just a friend or relative.:twisted: :rockon:
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So eating innocent peope is more evil than torturing innocent people or beating them to death?
 
jtg3885 said:
I mean, what would you expect a person in his situation to be like? "Yup, I killed 'em. Ate some of 'em. It was fun too."
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If they were evil, yes. And that's the question here.

jtg3885 said:
Just because a psychopath is incapable of FEELING remorse does not mean they are incapable of EXPRESSING remorse.
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I don't see your point. Nobody is talking about psychopaths. Either way, Bruce Banner has shown that he feels remorse AND he has expressed remorse.
 
E said:
If they were evil, yes. And that's the question here.



I don't see your point. Nobody is talking about psychopaths. Either way, Bruce Banner has shown that he feels remorse AND he has expressed remorse.
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I think what he is saying is that in his opinion Ultimate Banner is a psychopath who is merely pretending to show remorse in order to avoid a harsher punishment. However I find that unlikely and believe that Banner's remorse is real.
 
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The Overlord said:
I think what he is saying is that in his opinion Ultimate Banner is a psychopath who is merely pretending to show remorse in order to avoid a harsher punishment. However I find that unlikely and believe that Banner's remorse is real.
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What he said for the first part. But for Bruce to deliberately Hulk-ify himself... I don't care how upset and jealous you are. There's something deeper at work when you deliberately (as opposed to Norman's ****-up) turn yourself into a giant green monster.
 
jtg3885 said:
What he said for the first part. But for Bruce to deliberately Hulk-ify himself... I don't care how upset and jealous you are. There's something deeper at work when you deliberately (as opposed to Norman's ****-up) turn yourself into a giant green monster.
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I doubt Banner could fake crying for 12 hours a day, he would have to be a very talented actor to do that and I doubt he is. Banner taking the serum was very stupid, but its more akin to driving while drunk than anything else. He knew that something bad could happen, but he didn't know that he would end of killing 800 people. That's not as evil as the Maestro who kills hundreds of people and is fully aware of conquesences of his actions, but merely doesn't care.
 
When it comes down it Ultimate Hulk simply isn't "evil". He is like an animal. He's not plotting schemes to blow up or take over the world. He's surviving and following his instincts/emotions.
 
The Overlord said:
I doubt Banner could fake crying for 12 hours a day, he would have to be a very talented actor to do that and I doubt he is. Banner taking the serum was very stupid, but its more akin to driving while drunk than anything else. He knew that something bad could happen, but he didn't know that he would end of killing 800 people. That's not as evil as the Maestro who kills hundreds of people and is fully aware of conquesences of his actions, but merely doesn't care.
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I speak from experience when I say that you'd be amazed at what a person with antisocial personality disorder is capable of.
 
jtg3885 said:
I speak from experience when I say that you'd be amazed at what a person with antisocial personality disorder is capable of.
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Still seems like your reaching to me.
 
The Overlord said:
He knew that something bad could happen, but he didn't know that he would end of killing 800 people.
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And besides that, he gave 2 reasons for doing it:

1) He missed "being big". Pretty said, not evil.

2) He wanted to give the Ultimates something to fight to justify their existance. Stupid, but with good intentions in a twisted way.
 
"Ultimate Hulk" doesn't seem evil to me, although when I stop and really think it out, it IS a bit more complicated than I first thought. I guess, for me, the Ultimate Hulk is a being who is almost incapable of "calming down". It isn't the same as you or me losing our temper, it isn't a matter of him refusing to rein in his impulses...I get the impression he simpy CAN"T. He isn't MADE that way. He is all about anger and impulse and insecurity (funny that he shares this with Banner... however, Banner's insecurities lead him to work harder, to over-reach, to push himself, and to take some foolish chances...whereas the massively insecure Hulk simply wants to SMASH when he feels he is mocked...*S*) and rage. He isn't knowingly choosing "evil"... I almost doubt he is capable of really CHOOSING anything, in a really meaningful way. He isn't bright enough, and he isn't wired that way.

He isn't entirely bestial though, which may require some modest qualification to all of that... I don't know that I would say he is INCAPABLE of evil, in the sense that a shark or a tiger would be. But I think he is closer to an animal, or a personification of baser impulses, than he is to a being capable of real evil...

We do get into some WEIRD, fun stuff here, don't we....*S*

Shadow
 
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No Maestro is clearly more evil, cause his actions are premeditated. U Hulk is pretty much "you make fun of Hulk? *SMASH*" He's basically an angry child with no remorse acting on impulse without considering consequences or the morality of it.
 
Maestro is (at least for now) the more single-dimensionally evil of the two. In a black and white world, he's the black.
Ultimate Hulk is a Jekyll & Hyde situation. Nobody's going to argue that the Ultimate Hulk's actions aren't evil, or his intent (killing everything in his path with the intent, I assume, to unleash his libido on betty ross). He's stupid and enraged, but I wouldn't say he's "Insane" any more than Mr. Hyde was "Insane" - he's just all the collected bad parts of a human personality, given super strength and endurance and let loose.
Up 'til Hulk vs. Wolverine, the question appears to be more of Banner's culpability for Hulk's actions - and, when judging UH on his own, that's ultimately irrelevent. Ultimate Hulk IS evil. More-or-less than some other evil guy (Maesto or otherwise) is splitting hairs. A little evil in your soul is like a little spit in your water. The question, then, is "is ultimate banner evil?"
For the answer to that, we'll have to see how Hulk vs. Wolverine pans out, no?
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
How did this conversation get this far?
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It borrowed a car and drove.

And for the record, are we talking about Ultimate Hulk or Ultimate Banner? Because, however strange it sounds, I have always kept those two as two separate beings, just in the same body. :?
 
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