Ultimatum series discussion [spoilers]

Are you guys really going to start an initiative complaining about a book that's already complete in a market that bought it published by an imprint that was stagnant long before the book came out?

It's not like you guys aren't getting what you want. Bendis and Millar are the two main guys staying on board, and they're the two architects of the universe. Ellis is writing the first miniseries. What's there to still complain about?
 
E said:
You guys could just post articles here in the form of regular threads.
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Well I was thinking a site that has those article as a primary focus. And it's more like a movement with the intent of reaching Marvel and encouraging them to stop throwing things away. I doubt it will ever reach that height, but I'd rather keep this forum as is. Maybe we can link to articles here or whatever here.
Zombipanda said:
Are you guys really going to start an initiative complaining about a book that's already complete in a market that bought it published by an imprint that was stagnant long before the book came out?

It's not like you guys aren't getting what you want. Bendis and Millar are the two main guys staying on board, and they're the two architects of the universe. Ellis is writing the first miniseries. What's there to still complain about?
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But Loeb is still doing Ultimates 4 and I doubt Marvel is done letting him ruin ****.
 
The petition, in my opinion, is a waste of our time.

Since the Loebification of recent time, and the crappy big events of the big 2, I've spent my time, instead of complaining or creating a grassroots approach, looking for comics that I'll enjoy.

I found GREEN MANOR which is, without a doubt, one of my most favourite comics I've ever read.

A petition gives this crap attention. The only way for it to do is to not buy it, not talk about it, not let it exist in any meaningful way.

As it stands, I would rather see Marvel and DC collapse and us never see another X-Men comic, than give them the time of day and ideas how to 'fix' it. Marvel and DC should not be putting out the rubbish that they do, and I certainly am not interested in the nonsensical uphill battle to fix it.

They just should not be making these kinds of mistakes at the level at which they operate.

There are better and more interesting comics out there, and they deserve our support, not the comics that continually disappoint.

In the cinema, it occurred to me that Michael Bay will never make a good movie. His movies will be gratuitous nonsense. I did not right a petition to get rid of Michael Bay, nor did I swear off cinema, and instead, watch other movies.

In television, I eventually realised that Tim Kring will never 'fix' HEROES and that JJ Abrams will never give any method of sophistication to FRINGE and that Ronald D Moore had no intention of returning the integrity to BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. So I dumped them all. I did not dump television. I did not try to save the show with spec scripts. I went out and found THE WIRE and ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT.

To put it another way... In football (soccer), I got sick and tired of referees who didn't curb the antisocial behaviour of the players on the pitch that physically threatened my teammates, and I got sick and tired of no one doing anything about it.

See, the way it works is that, on the pitch, if a player threatens to beat up another player, it's 'bad form' but not a big deal. Provided it stays on the pitch. Between two players. If a third player gets involved, it's 'wrong'. If it's a person on the sidelines, it's 'wrong'. If it's the goalie, it's 'wrong'.

I, on the other hand, think that when a 19-year old skinny kid who does a perfect tackle on a big guy that makes him fall, and said big guy threatens to punch the kid in the face if he does it again, is antisocial behaviour and the man must be sent off for at least 2 minutes.

(An aside - footballers are the most hypocritical men in the world. They act all manly like they'll take your 'block off', but if you touch them, they dive to the floor and roll around begging for a penalty. Wankers.)

I play in goal and thus could not, ever, stand up for a friend. Seriously. If my friend got threatened and I stood up for him, everyone on the pitch would act like I did something wrong.

My options were to become a referee or to just 'put up with it'. The latter seemed untenable to me, so I considered becoming a referee... for three seconds. It took that long to realize my solution to my problem of "I spend too much time with retards" was to spend more time with them.

So I picked a third option: I only play on Wednesday night, when my friends on my team TRAIN. We play for an hour. Just us. Friends. I don't do any of the rest.

I enjoy football.

Why would I want to spend my time complaining about people who don't give a tenth of the attention to their work that we do? Why would I want to spend time thinking about a mysterious plot line in LOST when the writers have so obviously not bothered? Why would I actively give my time and effort to something I want to disappear from the face of the Earth and never be involved with?

I don't want to spend any time with Ultimatum, or any of that garbage. I want to sit back, read PUNISHER MAX, THE AGE OF THE SENTRY, BATMAN: THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD (the comic is better than anything Jeph Loeb has written, and it's just an okay book) and look for things like GREEN MANOR and SCOTT PILGRIM. I want to go back and re-read MIRACLEMAN and HELLBOY and EMPOWERED. I want to get excited about the next thing Oni Press is going to put out.

I don't want to be involved in a world where the biggest question on everyone's lips is, "Will Spider-Man fight Green Goblin?"

I don't care if they kill Wolverine or Superman. These aren't these characters.

This is fanfiction.

A petition would only legitimize it. A comic that was put out without any consideration or care of any kind.

No, sir. I'm done. I'm happy to talk about comics I like. I'm happy to discuss just why this comic is bad on any level. But I will not involve myself in any attempt to 'fix' it.

They shouldn't be making these types of mistakes. I don't condone it, and I don't intend to teach them how to fix it. Firstly, I'm not qualified to do so, and secondly, I shouldn't have to.

I wash my hands of all this crap.

And I urge you to do the same.

Go into your comic shop and ask for one of the following:

GREEN MANOR
SCOTT PILGRIM
EMPOWERED
BONE
ASTERIX
THE UMBRELLA ACADEMY
HELLBOY
FABLES
RANMA ½
THE LAST CALL
JIMMY CORRIGAN: THE SMARTEST KID ON EARTH
TOM STRONG
100 BULLETS
THE SPIRIT
GLOBAL FREQUENCY
TINTIN

Or something that you see on the shelf that looks like it might interest you.

Pick these up. Read them. Then come back to me and ask if ULTIMATUM is worth one scintilla of your time.
 
Bass, you should give Madame Xanadu a go, its by Matt Wagner, and the art is terrific.

What's funny about this post, is I can envision Bass saying this. All those Italics, he's waving his hands around, making a point, the sharp stops there, he's giving you a look.

And yes, it's an intelligent one.

Bass is very charismatic, on the flip side, he supposedly can't get women.

I highly doubt that.
 
Well I think it's a common symptom of fandom.

People like to believe that the characters belong to them and not the companies, and then terrible stories are a direct insult to them. This isn't to say that **** like Ultimatum isn't insulting, because it certainly is, but as Bass pointed out, demanding better stories just shows them that you're still paying attention and they can keep stringing you along. It's voting with your dollar. I love plenty of Marvel and DC characters but if the comic is crap then why the hell should I be reading it?

Though I think the Ultimate Universe really hits people here because there was so much potential there. (The first volume of the Ultimates really was excellent. Thinking about it today in relation to the Miracleman reference I made, I really think it, The Authority, and some other comics from the beginning of the decade were like 'reconstructionist' takes on the superhero genre in contrast to Moore's deconstructions. Superheros placed in a real world context, but not to condemn them as silly or ultimately a negative thing, but to paint a more ambiguous and maybe positive picture of the 'superhuman'. But this is a bit off-topic.)
 
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Bass said:
The petition, in my opinion, is a waste of our time.
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I'm not picturing it as a petition, but as say a movement, to try and get people on this bandwagon of not accepting stuff like this, the post you just wrote is brilliant, image a site that featured alternatives like that as a focal point? Rather than just a comment in a forum only about a hundred people may read.
moonmaster said:
Well I think it's a common symptom of fandom.

People like to believe that the characters belong to them and not the companies, and then terrible stories are a direct insult to them. This isn't to say that **** like Ultimatum isn't insulting, because it certainly is, but as Bass pointed out, demanding better stories just shows them that you're still paying attention and they can keep stringing you along. It's voting with your dollar. I love plenty of Marvel and DC characters but if the comic is crap then why the hell should I be reading it?
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Well that would be a part of the site educating people on the idea of not paying for crap
Though I think the Ultimate Universe really hits people here because there was so much potential there. (The first volume of the Ultimates really was excellent. Thinking about it today in relation to the Miracleman reference I made, I really think it, The Authority, and some other comics from the beginning of the decade were like 'reconstructionist' takes on the superhero genre in contrast to Moore's deconstructions. Superheros placed in a real world context, but not to condemn them as silly or ultimately a negative thing, but to paint a more ambiguous and maybe positive picture of the 'superhuman'. But this is a bit off-topic.)
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That's definitely why I'm so ticked off, I mean I haven't even bought an Ultimate comic in like a year or two. But I'm still so thoroughly pissed off, not only because I bought an issue on a whim and fell in love with the line, but that there was so much endless potential for just absolutely great stories. It could have easily gone on for another decade or two of absolutely fantastic storytelling. So I'm very pissed off and just want Marvel to know of my intense dissatisfaction, and somehow writing an easily deletable e-mail just doesn't seem worth it. But if there a way I can just start a snowball down the hill then I may consider it. I never said this idea would work, or that it would be effective. I just feel something needs to be done.
 
You guys are wasting time even bothering to talk about this. Bass is right; don't bother talking about Ultimatum or any bad comics - just go read ones you like.
 
Ultimate Houde said:
Bass, you should give Madame Xanadu a go, its by Matt Wagner, and the art is terrific.

What's funny about this post, is I can envision Bass saying this. All those Italics, he's waving his hands around, making a point, the sharp stops there, he's giving you a look.

And yes, it's an intelligent one.

Bass is very charismatic, on the flip side, he supposedly can't get women.

I highly doubt that.
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I will give Xanadu a go once I've worked through the billions of comics I've not yet read.

Also, if I WERE saying thing, there would be lots of swearing. Stupid filter.

And I can't get women. Stupid gender.

moonmaster said:
Well I think it's a common symptom of fandom.

People like to believe that the characters belong to them and not the companies, and then terrible stories are a direct insult to them. This isn't to say that **** like Ultimatum isn't insulting, because it certainly is, but as Bass pointed out, demanding better stories just shows them that you're still paying attention and they can keep stringing you along. It's voting with your dollar. I love plenty of Marvel and DC characters but if the comic is crap then why the hell should I be reading it?

Though I think the Ultimate Universe really hits people here because there was so much potential there. (The first volume of the Ultimates really was excellent. Thinking about it today in relation to the Miracleman reference I made, I really think it, The Authority, and some other comics from the beginning of the decade were like 'reconstructionist' takes on the superhero genre in contrast to Moore's deconstructions. Superheros placed in a real world context, but not to condemn them as silly or ultimately a negative thing, but to paint a more ambiguous and maybe positive picture of the 'superhuman'. But this is a bit off-topic.)
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I like the reconstructionist thing. I think you're right.

Also, the "why the hell should I be reading it?" The way I see it, there are more comics than I can ever read in my lifetime. Therefore, I cannot afford to read comics I know are going to be rubbish.

Random said:
I'm not picturing it as a petition, but as say a movement, to try and get people on this bandwagon of not accepting stuff like this, the post you just wrote is brilliant, image a site that featured alternatives like that as a focal point? Rather than just a comment in a forum only about a hundred people may read.
Well that would be a part of the site educating people on the idea of not paying for crap


That's definitely why I'm so ticked off, I mean I haven't even bought an Ultimate comic in like a year or two. But I'm still so thoroughly pissed off, not only because I bought an issue on a whim and fell in love with the line, but that there was so much endless potential for just absolutely great stories. It could have easily gone on for another decade or two of absolutely fantastic storytelling. So I'm very pissed off and just want Marvel to know of my intense dissatisfaction, and somehow writing an easily deletable e-mail just doesn't seem worth it. But if there a way I can just start a snowball down the hill then I may consider it. I never said this idea would work, or that it would be effective. I just feel something needs to be done.
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I don't care if Marvel knows my dissatisfaction. It implies that, somehow, I need them to do better. I don't. They need me. They need you. And everyone else. But comic fans act like we need them. We pay for the garbage we get, and then wonder why it's garbage. We shouldn't have to beg Marvel for good stories. They should have to beg us for our time, money, and attention.

ProjectX2 said:
You guys are wasting time even bothering to talk about this. Bass is right; don't bother talking about Ultimatum or any bad comics - just go read ones you like.
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Indeed. I am right. I am always right. Even when I'm wrong.
 
Now Bass I think you are being a little unfair to Marvel and DC, saying they should collapse, that's a bit harsh IMO.

I think they make good stuff and they make crap, most of the stuff written by Brubaker is still great for example, like Captain America. Its just Ultimatum was such crap that it makes whole industry seem bad, but if ultimate Avengers and UsM vol. 2 were well reviewed I would consider getting them somehow.

I personally would just avoid the bad stuff Ultimatum, I did, I just leafed through some of the issues at a friends house and I would pick up the good stuff, like Captain America or Daredevil.

Anyway personally I read a lot of TPDs by getting them library, now there's a free and legal way to read comics and if you don't like the comic you got you can just return it. I got 52 from the library and I liked it and I saw Linkara's video review of countdown, thought was funny, but then I knew enough not to get Countdown from the library.

But really there is no point in trying to "save" the comic industry, the comic book format is rather dated and print media itself is dying (newspapers that have existed for over a century are in danger of closing). The character concepts are more important comic book format itself and the characters will survive in cartoons, video games and movies.

On another note I heard Linkara may review Ultimates Vol. 3 some time in the future.
 
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The Overlord said:
Now Bass I think you are being a little unfair to Marvel and DC, saying they should collapse, that's a bit harsh IMO.

I think they make good stuff and they make crap, most of the stuff written by Brubaker is still great for example, like Captain America. Its just Ultimatum was such crap that it makes whole industry seem bad, but if ultimate Avengers and UsM vol. 2 were well reviewed I would consider getting them somehow.

I personally would just avoid the bad stuff Ultimatum, I did, I just leafed through some of the issues at a friends house and I would pick up the good stuff, like Captain America or Daredevil.
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I dunno. I think if Marvel and DC were on the bottom rung of the comics industry, it might make 'em actually work really hard.

But you're probably right.

The Overlord said:
But really there is no point in trying to "save" the comic industry, the comic book format is rather dated and print media itself is dying (newspapers that have existed for over a century are in danger of closing). The character concepts are more important comic book format itself and the characters will survive in cartoons, video games and movies.
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Newspapers aren't dying because print media is dying. Print media is fine. Newspapers are dying because the internet and television can deliver information much faster and with greater interactivity than newspaper.

Just as newspapers made word of mouth obsolete, the internet and 24-hour news is getting rid of the newspaper. By the time you pick up a newspaper, you know everything in it. That's why it's dying. Not because it's printed on paper.
 
Bass said:
I will give Xanadu a go once I've worked through the billions of comics I've not yet read.

Also, if I WERE saying thing, there would be lots of swearing. Stupid filter.

And I can't get women. Stupid gender.



I like the reconstructionist thing. I think you're right.

Also, the "why the hell should I be reading it?" The way I see it, there are more comics than I can ever read in my lifetime. Therefore, I cannot afford to read comics I know are going to be rubbish.



I don't care if Marvel knows my dissatisfaction. It implies that, somehow, I need them to do better. I don't. They need me. They need you. And everyone else. But comic fans act like we need them. We pay for the garbage we get, and then wonder why it's garbage. We shouldn't have to beg Marvel for good stories. They should have to beg us for our time, money, and attention.



Indeed. I am right. I am always right. Even when I'm wrong.
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Yeah, but this time you are so completely right, it's not even funny.
 
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Bass said:
I dunno. I think if Marvel and DC were on the bottom rung of the comics industry, it might make 'em actually work really hard.

But you're probably right.
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But see Marvel and DC are not some collective, they aren't the Borg, they are of bunch individual writers, some good and bad and that's always going t be the case. There is always going to be good and bad output from them, you never going to get an output that is all quality or all crap, its always going to be hit and miss and the quality of comics is certainly better now then it was in the early 90s.


Look at this way, most movie companies make quality and crap at the same time. In the 90s WB made the Shawshank Redemption, as well Batman and Robin. Just because Batman and Robin sucked, doesn't mean I should avoid the Shawshank Redemption, just because both movies were made by the same company?

Bass said:
Newspapers aren't dying because print media is dying. Print media is fine. Newspapers are dying because the internet and television can deliver information much faster and with greater interactivity than newspaper.

Just as newspapers made word of mouth obsolete, the internet and 24-hour news is getting rid of the newspaper. By the time you pick up a newspaper, you know everything in it. That's why it's dying. Not because it's printed on paper.
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I should have mentioned books as the exception to that, but Newspapers and mags are going out of business because of the net.

But really I think comic book companies will make more money from cartoons, TV shows, video games, movies and other merchandise then the comics themselves, printing the comics is a good way to ensure the trademark rights remain though.
 
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My opinion of this whole Ultimatum mess has actually changed since the first issue.

I think it sucks a lot worse now, and I think it sucks a lot worse in retrospect. That concentrates the power of the suck. Ultimatum is like a ink-and-paper vaccuum that grabs everything within it's reach and turns it into more suck, like a giant black hole of suck. If you own any of these comics, you should keep them as far away from other comics as possible, or one day you might pick up your favorite issue of Preacher or Ultimates v1 or 2 and find that it now sucks, too.

Seriously, I'm having a hard time understanding why the PTB at Marvel let Loeb take a big, brown duke all over the Ultimate Universe. It wasn't perfect before, but now... *gag*...
 
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