Ultimates V2 #10 Discussion (SPOILERS)

i have no problems with the hawkeye absurdity. dude kills a guy with a plate and the blunt ends of utensils in issue 7. 616 kills people with playing cards, which has actually been proven impossible on mythbusters, i believe. no one complains about that. this is just more proof that hawkeye is ultimate awesome.

think about it, everything the guy has done has been ridiculous. even in his first scene: no one can fire arrows that quickly.

i liked this issue. for once it shows every single Ultimate as being really really competent and confident, which wasn't the case last time around.
 
comic_geek21 said:
I really enjoyed this issue. I almost crapped myself when I saw what Hawkeye did. MOTHER******* FINGERNAILS??!!:rockon: Man, screw Captain America! Hawkeye is officially the baddest MoFo in Ultimate U!

And I can't wait to see Thor return. Thor has been through the ringer so much since Loki turned everyone against him, I can't wait to see Thor open an Asgardian can of Whoop*** on everyone!:D

Man, I've always been a huge USM fan, but The Ultimates is slowly passing up USM in my eyes. *sniff* I'm gonna miss Millar and Hitch when they leave, Loeb and Mad have a heck of a legacy to live up too.


aaammmmeeennnn
 
E.Vi.L. said:
I mentionned earlier that I hoped it was revealed that his real fingernail have been removed and replaced by small blade or something. Ultra sharp blade that can be removed effortlessly and have great penetrating properties.

See, I would hate that. It is adding to much explanation, kind of along the same lines of what Rhyo was saying. He's an archer - what would be the purpose of replacing his fingernails with blades? It's too much to suggest that he could have forseen a situation like this.

I think the fingernails work fine.
 
iceman said:
think about it, everything the guy has done has been ridiculous. even in his first scene: no one can fire arrows that quickly.

It's okay if he does something no one else can. That makes him a super hero.

It's not okay if he does something that can't be done (Not without invoking supernatural mutant power).

To understand the difference, consider this :

In the real world, no one can kill a grown man by throwing a fork. But a fork projected with enough force and in a way that insure it hits with the tip first can kill. It just can't be done by a real human being, but it can be done by a air pressure cannon of some sort or, in the UU, by Hawkeye.

In the real world, a nail can't be projected hard enough to hurt a man. In a world of fiction based on the real world... A nail still can't be projected hard enought to hurt a man. Not even by a powerful air gun.

See the difference?
 
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i'm pretty sure we don't have instand 'roids (genius roids, to boot), people that turn into giants, technology that can teleport, nanintes that control armor, people that move 400 miles per hour, people that can bend reality, suits that can fly, people with spider-powers, mutants with superpowers, giant killer robots, people that can stretch, people made of rock, people made of fire, and other stuff in t he real world as well.
 
2 things: i loved how there was a stream of like 8 pages with no ads. THat was very nice.

Second, I think that the Colonel is NOT receptive to the serum. remember Lieberman? He was fine for a while, right?

I think Abdul will be fine and suddenly he will have an adverse reaction, and then his skull will get f'd up (hence red skull); however, I dont think he will die. I think it will just mess up his physicality. Making it so that it only worked on Steve perfectly, and nearly perfectly on "the faithful" Abdul.
 
marvelman said:
2 things:

I think Abdul will be fine and suddenly he will have an adverse reaction, and then his skull will get f'd up (hence red skull); however, I dont think he will die. I think it will just mess up his physicality. Making it so that it only worked on Steve perfectly, and nearly perfectly on "the faithful" Abdul.
Awesome. Theory.

*Appulases*

*Throws roses*
 
marvelman said:
I think Abdul will be fine and suddenly he will have an adverse reaction, and then his skull will get f'd up (hence red skull); however, I dont think he will die. I think it will just mess up his physicality. Making it so that it only worked on Steve perfectly, and nearly perfectly on "the faithful" Abdul.

That would be an awesome set up for the character. :rockon:


As far as the fingernail thing goes----it's so absurd that its actually cool. I mean pulling out one's fingernails is not a one hand job. I've seen actual footage of it being done (closest accurate recreation I've seen is from "Syriana"). Now if his nails were long enough......popping them off with enough applied leverage is feasable (see the murder scene from "Stir of Echos") but the probability of them popping upwards and then catching them with your bound hand/wrist.....without anyone seeing you is so crazy that Tom Green called it absurd.

Plus the whole scene bugged me because I thought he was just an expert archer. Allowing him to be a marksman with any object is too "Bullseye-ish".

But that's neither here nor there.

The issue itself was awesome....yet a bit underwhelming. I guess we're all wanting the fight....but not the story behind it. I was hoping for the epic battle....and instead I got a wonderfully articulated story. I guess if I want mindless action I can go see a Michael Bay film or read New Avengers. :wink:


I give it 4.9/5..............only becauses I really wanted the fight. :(
 
And now we know why her implants were "itching" in issue 9.

A friend of mine that doesn't read many comics read that issue and said her boobs itch? Is she pregnant? I told him noooooooooooo! She has cyber and biological enhancements. He was like, Ohhhhhhhhhhhh! lol.
 
It was nice to see Jan do something not involving her relationships again. It's been a while.

Oh yeah, and will anyone believe Hawkeye when he tells them he escaped by using his fingernails as projectiles? I want to see that conversation.
 
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UltimateSpiderBuggy said:
Oh yeah, and will anyone believe Hawkeye when he tells them he escaped by using his fingernails as projectiles? I want to see that conversation.

I would hope so. It's all bloody and nasty where his fingernails were.
 
BTW : If Tony can download information from Natascha's brain, he could have learned of the conspiracy months ago. Think about it.

iceman said:
i'm pretty sure we don't have instand 'roids (genius roids, to boot), people that turn into giants, technology that can teleport, nanintes that control armor, people that move 400 miles per hour, people that can bend reality, suits that can fly, people with spider-powers, mutants with superpowers, giant killer robots, people that can stretch, people made of rock, people made of fire, and other stuff in t he real world as well.

Dude, I've heard this argument countless time. It's not a good argument because it is just a blanket statement that can be used to justify any outlandish occurence in a comic.

Ben Grimm kills the Abomination by blowing hard in his direction and propulsing him into space? Quicksilver goes back in time to warn the team by running very fast counterclockwise of the earth's rotation? Hawkeye runs out of bullets but kills the remaining guard by spitting his teeth at them? Reed use a gadget to give life to the Looney tunes character and they save the US?

Hey, why not, after all :

iceman said:
i'm pretty sure we don't have instand 'roids (genius roids, to boot), people that turn into giants, technology that can teleport, nanintes that control armor, people that move 400 miles per hour, people that can bend reality, suits that can fly, people with spider-powers, mutants with superpowers, giant killer robots, people that can stretch, people made of rock, people made of fire, and other stuff in t he real world as well.

Each comic universe has a certain 'degree of reality'. I would have thought that knocking out guards by flicking fingernails at them was not acceptable in UU but it seems I was wrong. I hope no author feel the obligation to outdo Millar on this one because it could lead to some pretty awful fight scenes that wouldn't look out of place in an ' Itchy&Scracthy ' cartoon.
 
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The good part about the Hawkeye scene is that Millar singled out Hawkeye as "the weakest" of the Ultimates several times before this (had characters actually say it on panel) and yet, here he is, the WEAKEST of the bunch and he's still scary and competent as hell. SHIELD and the Ultimates have spent the last few issues falling apart, and being replaced with the Ultimate Reserves (who absolutely crumbled under the onslaught of "The Liberators") and now the point is to build up the anticipation of how the team will come back together.

I wonder where the facility Hawkeye (and presumably the wounded Fury, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch) is being held is? Bet it turns out to be very NYC adjacent, otherwise they'd have a hard time getting the full team together by the last issue.
 
Rhyo said:
I wonder where the facility Hawkeye (and presumably the wounded Fury, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch) is being held is? Bet it turns out to be very NYC adjacent, otherwise they'd have a hard time getting the full team together by the last issue.

I don't know if we need the whole team together.

After all, there are so many critical points and so few Ultimates...

You can have Hawkeye hunting for the brains of the operation while Cap lead a counterstrike directly against the liberator. And so, whether Hawkeye is near or not of NYC becomes irrelevant.

After all, it plays to their respective strenght. In a way, Hawkeye IS one of the weakest ultimate. He wasn't a whole lot of use against Thor or against the Chitauri, was he? But playing Rambo and capturing the big wigs at the facility he was being held (and perhaps disocvering crucial intel in the process), this he can do as well as anyone else on the team. Better than some, like Iron-Man for example.
 
soooo, does ANYONE think the next issue will be out 4/12/06....??? In fact, im surprised they didnt make it 4/1/06, that way we would be like "OMG, The new issue of The Ultimates is coming out today!!!!!!!!!!!!!", and Marvel would be like "APRIL FOOLS!!!!!!!!!" :)
 
I'm actually thinking there's a small chance it will. Hitch has had sine January for this issue. So hopefully it will be.

Than again, that just might be wishful thinking. :(
 
And Hitch said in an interview he's working on #12, so maybe. In earlier interviews, Hitch has said that he prefers working on more than one issue at a time to keep the flow and connection together, so that might not mean that issue #11 is finished yet.
 
Rhyo said:
I wonder where the facility Hawkeye (and presumably the wounded Fury, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch) is being held is? Bet it turns out to be very NYC adjacent, otherwise they'd have a hard time getting the full team together by the last issue.
Fury, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch are on their way to Washington for a public execution. I don't know if that's where Hawkeye is or not, but they said that those three and Betty are goin' to Washington.
 
I'm going to post this then read the thread, so sorry if I repeat anything.

I was quite disappointed in #10.

First, we get exposition. #10 of a 12-issue series is too late for plot points. At best, this is #4 of the 6-part Grand Theft America story. At best, it's past halfway. Especially since this is supposed to have been 'plotted very carefully'.

Also, the 'suicide bomber' metaphor, instead of being on Red Skull, is on... THE ENTIRE ARMY. I'm sorry, having your leader be a living martyr (ain't that a great contradiction) is one thing - but the entire army of the Liberators is dead in a month.

... Is this a temporary invasion?

Pym is obviously going to betray the Liberators with his Ultrons, but those Ultrons were cool.

As was Red Skull being weak and sickly prior to becoming 'the Colonel'.

And Nick Fury's current predicament.

Iron Man does use those nanites that were mentioned once in #4. I think it was a bit hokey, but to be honest, it was pretty good. Especially clattering Natasha with a bottle.

Sadly, Black Widow being the traitor is still a bloody stupid idea. I'm not looking forward to it being brought up again. Also - "Oh please. The Russian spy? I can see why you'd think I'd be the last person to betray the team." Nice jab, Millar. However, Tony should've said, for the audience - "Sorry, but you're right. It's stupid of me to assume the Russian will betray America. This is the 1960s after all, you ****ing whore." It also isn't really fair to say, "It's the most obvious candidate, duh" when you've spent the last several months having characters going, "I didn't have you pegged as a traitor." which is now evidently shameful manipulation of the audience.

Black Widow being the traitor could've been good if the follwing things had happened -
1- Black Widow had become a developed character and not Tony's bit of fluff. Regardless, the reveal of the traitor should add to her character, and grant us insight into her. When people were imagining Cap or Stark as the traitor, the characters actually become more than they had been. Instead,Black Widow doing it because she's the Russian spy actually takes away from her character, by removing insight and turning her into a cardboard cut out.
2 - It had been set up in the actual comic effectively so it meant something. I did the Traitor and Loki manifestos. I've gone through the previous issues. There are NO HINTS that Widow is the traitor. There are numerous hints towards Cap and Tony, which were red herrings (which was great), but in there place there should've been real moments where, if we were to look back on them, they'd make more sense. As it is - we have Black Widow saving Hawkeye's life and telling Thor how great America is. It's shown that this traitor thing was always there, not a gradual turning like Pym. If it was the latter, these moments of heroism would be from her pre-traitor mindset. But it isn't. She's always been playing the part - so well it seems, that there is no hint of it at all. This, to me, makes it cheap and meaningless.
3 - We are told Black Widow is the traitor in #5, long before the team even know there is one. This would allow the set up of her motiviations and allies and create a sense of impending doom. What would be lost was the wonderful feeling this comic had from the first issue of the second volume, which was that there was something completely alien and unknowable coming to **** with everything and we couldn't stop it. Carbon copies of the superheroes kinda killed that though.
4 - Black Widow had been proven to NOT be the traitor. This would've at least given us the shock value of having a character we were certain couldn't be the traitor. It's red herring, the bluff, that's a wonderful convention of whodunits since the 20s. Imagine if Hulk or Thor had been the traitor. I know - it's doesn't make sense. But imagine if Thor had been playing us all this time. Imagine if Thor betrayed the team to make way for the Vikings of Asgard to claim the Earth. It's what he's been saying was going to happen for ages. Now imagine if he tried to do it through peace, but Fury's warmongering sped up the time table and there was no more time for diplomacy and Odin said that they had to strike. So Thor slowly took the team apart from the inside to make it as quick and painless as possible. That would've been ****ing out there.

Another little speculation - Black Widow is scarred and the Colonel has yet to be named. Either the Colonel is Red Fist, or BW may become the Red Skull as her face and brain may be messed up. Eh, whatever. I give up, back to the issue.

So then we get to Hawkeye. A quick not on Dragomir: if this series is plotted so carefully, it would've been nice to hear about so this scene means something, perhaps an ultimization of Swordmaster or one of Hawkeye's 616 villains - maybe he is? But a set up in Ultimates would've been nice.

Anyhoo, so then Hawkeye breaks out of his bonds using his fingernails. While it was established that Hawkeye is Bullseye in #7, I have to wonder how the hell Hawkeye actually took his fingernails off. I'm actually okay with him using his fingernails as weapons - what pisses me off is that he just developed the ability to remove his fingernails at that precise moment.

How about this instead?

Dragomir actually gets to torturing Hawkeye. Which is EXCRUTIATINGLY painful - but Hawkeye doesn't scream. The doctor jokes that since he's not screaming, they should give Hawkeye something to bite on so he doesn't swallow his tongue. Dragomir says he has a better place for it - he wants his scream.

As he uses the tongue depresser in an off-screen manner, we see all the soldiers and doctor very close, looming over Hawkeye, who has his teeth clenched, jaw locked, refusing to scream.

But there is a crack.

Blood starts pouring from Hawkeye's mouth - and he spits his teeth out at all those looming over him and kills them all.

Then, as the extra guards are sent in as people panic he's killed everyone, Hawkeye, the doctor lying, dead on his chest, using only his mouth, which is drenched in his own blood, to get the key and unlock himself.

Which he does. The rest plays as it does in the comic.

But now imagine how cool the "run" panel would look now. :twisted:

Then we get Captain America being 'freed'.

Why the hell was this issue the SAME SCENE repeated three times?

Tony is at the mercy of Black Widow - only he shows he never was! He was pretending and he takes her out.
Hawkeye is at the mercy of Dragomir and the doctor - only he shows he never was! He was pretending and he takes them out.
Wasp and Captain America are at the mercy of Schizoid Man and the troops - only he shows they never were! They were pretending and will no doubt, take them out next issue.

Also, these scenes would be a nice repeating theme if they were put in a progressive order - first Captain America, then Iron Man, and finally Hawkeye's "run" panel. But even then, they're too samey. Hawkeye and Iron Man end in the same place - their captors defeated, while Hawkeye and Captain America share the exact same scene (Hawkeye's just goes longer).

I dunno. I'm disappointed.

Mainly because #11 will be yet more of the same. People breaking out of prison to fight their opposites in #12. Really - come on. "Okay, now let's break out Thor. Now Hulk. Are we all together? Then let's fight" is monotonous.

This should've been a lot better considering the previous issues. It really feels like that they just kinda came up with it on a break.
 
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Too much reading again Bass.

I agree with the Hawkeye bit.

Still disagree with you about Natasha. There was nothing wrong with her being the traitor. You shouldn't have picked up any hints she was. She's the world's greatest spy. Er... was... I hope we haven't seen the last of her.
 

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