Ultimate Spider-Man #97 discussion (spoilers)

[Goodwill]

I'm not put off by the Scorpion being Peter so much that I would drop the title or dismiss the next issue... I'm just sore it was an obvious throwaway. I don't think characters should be taken so lightly in the UU. Deaths should have weight and characters should all have impacts... Granted, I know a clone would have an impact on Peter, but it didn't need to be Scorpion to do the same thing, you know what I mean?

 

[Zombipanda]

I'm not put off by the Scorpion being Peter so much that I would drop the title or dismiss the next issue... I'm just sore it was an obvious throwaway. I don't think characters should be taken so lightly in the UU. Deaths should have weight and characters should all have impacts... Granted, I know a clone would have an impact on Peter, but it didn't need to be Scorpion to do the same thing, you know what I mean?

I agree completely. I think when a writer wants to add a character to the mix he needs to ask himself, "Why should this character I'm writing be an ultimization of a pre-existing 616 character? Why should he be this universe's Vulture/Scorpion/Rhino/etc. and not jut some new character?" Bendis in particular needs to second-guess himself that way for every character he writes. I GET IT, Bendis! Scorpions hunt spiders. Awesome. I'm not saying your ultimizations need to be carbon copies of the 616 characters, but they should at least contain something of the original character's essence.

 

[Goodwill]

Yeah, man. Good call. There needs to be a reason for the more significant characters to be introduced. We could argue until the sun burns out about who is who in the 616 Universe... But there are characters, such as Vulture and Kraven, that fans attached themselves to. Since Bendis thought these villains were all joke characters in the 616, and then gives us Geldoff, I'm a little worried about this title after the clone saga.

 

[Zombipanda]

I don't know. I honestly liked how Bendis portrayed Kraven. I think he's one of the better ultimizations.

Anyway, I just picked up the issue and I really wasn't impressed. The dialogue between Peter and his girlfriends didn't really resonate with me at all and the banter fell flat. Plus, Scorpion seems kind of lame, and the art seemed kind of half-assed.

Although, let me go ahead and stop the speculation about who kidnapped MJ. It was the admissions officer from NYU... Someone doesn't want Mary Jane going to Barnard.

 

[Goodwill]

Although, let me go ahead and stop the speculation about who kidnapped MJ. It was the admissions officer from NYU... Someone doesn't want Mary Jane going to Barnard.

Woah.

 

[DIrishB]

You will never convince me that it's OK to do that.

It's a mask. You can't convey emotion from behind a mask.

It's stupid.

You can't swing throught the city on web-lines or stick to walls, but Spider-Man can, and you aren't *****ing about that.

I'm gonna draw spidey-sense into this again. When Spidey gets all tingly, we see those little "lightning bolts" around his head even though they're not actually there. They're just there for the reader. Same thing.

Score one for Vint.

So?

And if it's such a problem for him, he shouldn't wear a mask.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

If the reader really needs a fabric mask to change shape in order to tell when Spider-Man is surprised, then either the writer is doing a really crappy job setting up a scene, or said reader isn't paying close enough attention.

Considering emotions change mid-scene, the writer setting up the scene doesn't have as much to do with it as you seem to think. Point is, a certain amount of "dumbing-down" is required, to make it more accessible and appealing to a wider audience. You know this, so why are you still complaining about it? Its not something thats going to change, and its something which does have a reason behind it, whether you agree or not.





I was just thinking...what if the guy who kidnapped MJ was Shaw (you know, Norman Osborn's henchman who tried to run Peter over in the first arc, and appeared as a hallucination to Harry in the Hobgoblin arc).

Now, it can be argued he doesn't exist because of what happened in Hobgoblin, but at the same time, in the first arc of the series, Peter did see him and interact with him to a degree, which means he has to exist.

And this would be a direct connection to Norman Osborn, pulling the strings even while locked up.

 

[E]

I don't know. I honestly liked how Bendis portrayed Kraven. I think he's one of the better ultimizations.

Me too. Actually, I thought it was brilliant. And brilliant isn't a word I use to describe Bendis's Ultimate Spider-Man, but that really was good. That's the type of ultimization that BKV seemed to pick up on and do very, very well.

You can't swing throught the city on web-lines or stick to walls, but Spider-Man can, and you aren't *****ing about that.

As I pointed out several times in the original, classic squinty mask thread which now resides in The Museum, I never claimed that comics had to be scientifically accurate. If they tell me a guy can get spider-powers from a spider biting him, OK. I'm fine with it. But there is nothing that explains how a mask made of glass and fabric can change shape according to the emotion of the person wearing it. Apples and oranges.

Point is, a certain amount of "dumbing-down" is required

Funny, you are the first person to admit that it is dumbing down the comic.

Yeah, so I don't like my comics dumbed down. If you guys do, well, sorry to hear it.

I've said my piece in the original thread. No sense dragging it out. No one is going to change anyone's mind.

 

[Zombipanda]

Me too. Actually, I thought it was brilliant. And brilliant isn't a word I use to describe Bendis's Ultimate Spider-Man, but that really was good. That's the type of ultimization that BKV seemed to pick up on and do very, very well.

Agreed. Kraven definitely seems liked a BKV flavor.

As I pointed out several times in the original, classic squinty mask thread which now resides in The Museum, I never claimed that comics had to be scientifically accurate. If they tell me a guy can get spider-powers from a spider biting him, OK. I'm fine with it. But there is nothing that explains how a mask made of glass and fabric can change shape according to the emotion of the person wearing it. Apples and oranges.

Not agreed.

There is an explanation. It's called artistic license. I think what we tend to lose track of as comic book fans is that the telling of the story is more important than the semantics. We comb over everything to make sure it fits in continuity or stands up to the rules of the universe but we forget that sometimes these things can get in the way of telling a good story. Comic book writers only have so many panels to express the emotions of their characters where actors have a depth of changing expressions to do it with and writers have countless words to use. I just don't see how a stylistc choice like that gets in the way of enjoying the story.

Yeah, so I don't like my comics dumbed down. If you guys do, well, sorry to hear it.

I really don't get how it's dumbing down the comic. Could someone please explain?

I've said my piece in the original thread. No sense dragging it out. No one is going to change anyone's mind.

Now that's just stubborn.

 

[Ice]

Not agreed.

There is an explanation. It's called artistic license. I think what we tend to lose track of as comic book fans is that the telling of the story is more important than the semantics. We comb over everything to make sure it fits in continuity or stands up to the rules of the universe but we forget that sometimes these things can get in the way of telling a good story. Comic book writers only have so many panels to express the emotions of their characters where actors have a depth of changing expressions to do it with and writers have countless words to use. I just don't see how a stylistc choice like that gets in the way of enjoying the story.

And like it's been said, it doesn't move at all. It's only shown moving for the comic readers. If we were in their world, it wouldn't move at all.

 

[Gemini]

come on everyone stop ragging on bendis so much! let's see you write 97 issue's about the same characters and not get a little loose near the end good god

i liked this book and everyone here saw scorpion being a peter clone from a mile away

it's the clone saga not a let's endow someone with the same powers saga

i'm sticking with bendis all the way through his run keep up the hard work man

you all want bendis gone but once bendis get's a replacement you'll all be "this new guy doesn't live up to bendis" most of the people who come to this site just wine about averything good god if you don't like any of the ultimate books don't read em all i hear is:

bendis is uncreative
kirkman does'nt know what he's doing
land is not a good artist (a damnable lie)
millars always late (which is not true just the ultimates are frequently late)
the mini's are never good enough

wawawawawawawawawaH! :cry:

i see the same garbage everywhere people beg for something and then whine when they get it

i give this FIRST issue in a long arc 9/10 for a fun read

 

[Ice]

you all want bendis gone but once bendis get's a replacement you'll all be "this new guy doesn't live up to bendis"

Yeah, cuz we're all gonna say, "Bendis who? THIS GUY ROCKS!"

:lol:



Oh, and SIMMA-DOWN NOW!

:lol:

 

[Random]

I do not like where this issue is going, I'm glad to have scenes between Peter and MJ, thats what we've been missing in USM lately, Peter's social life and the characters around it. Its one of the problems with him dating Kitty, puts more on his costume life, and we've havent heard anything about him skipping school since Hobgoblin which would make a really good plot but their just ignoring it. And as for Scopion's identity I saw it coming from a mile away, the second he appeared, cause I realise the eyes on his costume is very simular to spidey's. And him being Peter was dumb, I was hoping for something alittle more original. Also the way he was talking I got the impression that he is from the future (though I doubt it). I have very low hopes for this arc. And if they make MJ into Spider-Woman I will be shooting someone, and that someone will be the Watcher... why? I dont know I guess I'm just crazzzy :crazy:

No not really I wont shoot Watcher .... yet :shifty:

 

[Zombipanda]

come on everyone stop ragging on bendis so much! let's see you write 97 issue's about the same characters and not get a little loose near the end good god

um... He's written 97 issues and things are starting to get sloppy. Maybe that's a sign he should take a break and let a fresh creative team take over. When you run out of ideas, you should stop for a while. Telling good stories should take precedent over beating a record.

And sure, I'll give the whole 97 issues thing the old college try. I'll also be sure to use punctuation and capitalization.

i liked this book and everyone here saw scorpion being a peter clone from a mile away

That's a good thing?

it's the clone saga not a let's endow someone with the same powers saga

Wait... What?

you all want bendis gone but once bendis get's a replacement you'll all be "this new guy doesn't live up to bendis"

Wanna bet?

most of the people who come to this site just wine about averything good god if you don't like any of the ultimate books don't read em all i hear is:

If we didn't like the Ultimate books, we wouldn't be upset about some of them not hitting the standards they should.

And why do you come here? To learn English? I bet it's to learn English, isn't it?

bendis is uncreative

It's starting to look that way.

kirkman does'nt know what he's doing

Kirkman's doing a pretty good job.

land is not a good artist (a damnable lie)

He draws *****in' zombies.

millars always late (which is not true just the ultimates are frequently late)

That's the problem. We all love the Ultimates, and it sucks when we have to wait four months to get an issue.

the mini's are never good enough

Well? They aren't.

i see the same garbage everywhere people beg for something and then whine when they get it

Or they praise things that are good and complain when they're bad.

i give this FIRST issue in a long arc 9/10 for a fun read

hm.... I'm glad you provided reasons why you thought the issue was good.



Oh, and Random... A hundred bucks says Gwen Stacy is Spider-Woman.

 

[E]

Now that's just stubborn.

Heh.

come on everyone stop ragging on bendis so much! let's see you write 97 issue's about the same characters and not get a little loose near the end good god

Actually it started going bad around 60 issues in or so, which a couple of minor bright spots.

 

[Random]

Oh, and Random... A hundred bucks says Gwen Stacy is Spider-Woman.

In that case I will be shootin jtg3885

Actually it started going bad around 60 issues in or so, which a couple of minor bright spots.

Yeah the Carnage arc is where it really went downhill. And the thing is the stories really havent been that great, I think Bendis is just runing out of steam, and should let someone else right for a while, though keep Bagley I love his art in USM and dont want that to change

 

[Goodwill]

come on everyone stop ragging on bendis so much! let's see you write 97 issue's about the same characters and not get a little loose near the end good god

i liked this book and everyone here saw scorpion being a peter clone from a mile away

it's the clone saga not a let's endow someone with the same powers saga

i'm sticking with bendis all the way through his run keep up the hard work man

you all want bendis gone but once bendis get's a replacement you'll all be "this new guy doesn't live up to bendis" most of the people who come to this site just wine about averything good god if you don't like any of the ultimate books don't read em all i hear is:

bendis is uncreative
kirkman does'nt know what he's doing
land is not a good artist (a damnable lie)
millars always late (which is not true just the ultimates are frequently late)
the mini's are never good enough

wawawawawawawawawaH! :cry:

i see the same garbage everywhere people beg for something and then whine when they get it

i give this FIRST issue in a long arc 9/10 for a fun read

WELCOME! :-D Always nice to have fresh blood on the site... Happy posting. ;-)

Oh, and by the way, I'm the person who doesn't think Land is all that great. Sue me. :roll:

 

[Ice]

Oh, and by the way, I'm the person who doesn't think Land is all that great. Sue me. :roll:

You mean just how other people don't think Bagley is all that great either? :wink:

 

[gondee]

I like Bagley just for the record. I'd have no one else on USM. IMO no one does faces better than him.

 

[Gemini]

WELCOME! :-D Always nice to have fresh blood on the site... Happy posting. ;-)

Oh, and by the way, I'm the person who doesn't think Land is all that great. Sue me. :roll:

thanks for the welcome

i beleive it's suit not sue i've got an aunt named sue

 

[DIrishB]

As I pointed out several times in the original, classic squinty mask thread which now resides in The Museum, I never claimed that comics had to be scientifically accurate. If they tell me a guy can get spider-powers from a spider biting him, OK. I'm fine with it. But there is nothing that explains how a mask made of glass and fabric can change shape according to the emotion of the person wearing it. Apples and oranges.

Funny, you are the first person to admit that it is dumbing down the comic.

Yeah, so I don't like my comics dumbed down. If you guys do, well, sorry to hear it.

I've said my piece in the original thread. No sense dragging it out. No one is going to change anyone's mind.

Whatever. Like I said before, it isn't going to change, and it isn't necessarily something I think should change, as it only helps add to emotional reaction of the character--which without the use of dialogue would pretty much be impossible for someone wearing a mask, no matter the skill of the writer. Considering a large portion of the story is told through the art itself in comics, some over-exaggeration like this is almost to be expected.

Do you have a problem with manga or anime when characters in those respective medias have their eyes go huge in surprise, anger, etc in response to something? Because thats oranges and oranges.

There is an explanation. It's called artistic license. I think what we tend to lose track of as comic book fans is that the telling of the story is more important than the semantics. We comb over everything to make sure it fits in continuity or stands up to the rules of the universe but we forget that sometimes these things can get in the way of telling a good story. Comic book writers only have so many panels to express the emotions of their characters where actors have a depth of changing expressions to do it with and writers have countless words to use. I just don't see how a stylistc choice like that gets in the way of enjoying the story.

Agreed.

I really don't get how it's dumbing down the comic. Could someone please explain?

I personally meant it in the cynical light of certain people needing extra, much more apparent factors and input for them to figure something out. You know, dumbing down.

My point is, I see where E is coming from, and can't whole-heartedly disagree, but at the same time I don't mind it and can see the need for it.

I like Bagley just for the record. I'd have no one else on USM. IMO no one does faces better than him.

Really? Have you seen Brooks work in the USM Annuals (both last year's and this year's, due out next month)?

I like Bagley, but I honestly like Brooks work much more. Its not too different from Bagley, but just different enough to bring some new life to the art.

I was just thinking...what if the guy who kidnapped MJ was Shaw (you know, Norman Osborn's henchman who tried to run Peter over in the first arc, and appeared as a hallucination to Harry in the Hobgoblin arc).

Now, it can be argued he doesn't exist because of what happened in Hobgoblin, but at the same time, in the first arc of the series, Peter did see him and interact with him to a degree, which means he has (or had) to exist.

And this would be a direct connection to Norman Osborn, pulling the strings even while locked up (or in cryogenic freeze, depending on which continuity Bendis picks up on).

What? No one thinks my theory has any merit? Come on, I called the Hobgoblin/Harry origin long before it was confirmed, and I bet I'm calling this one. Besides, Norman knows MJ is (or was) Peter's girlfriend and that he cares about her, so he'd seems like a likely connection for the kidnapping.