Ultimate Iron Man #4 (Spoilers)

[E]

And in the first 4 issues of all the other ultimate books, the characters are fleshed out masterpieces of literary achivement? Sure, they're not the most original of character ideas, but they were what Card was given to write with. When exactly did Card say he didn't know anything about Iron Man? Because if it was before he started writing the book, then I dobut that he hasn't read at least some of the stories before he actually sat down and started writing. If it was after, then yes that was a bad move on someone's part. But I'm sorry, just because you don't like what he's done with a character you like, that doesn't make the book bad. Maybe his idea's aren't perfectly reasoned out or believable, but these are comics? What characters are 100% believable?

Another example of "x isn't bad because y is worse."

 

[DIrishB]

Another example of "x isn't bad because y is worse."

Exactly, and in this case "Y" isn't bad at all.

 

[Shi_Vral]

You know, there's really no point in me posting any more. Everything I say is wrong because your minds are made up, and so arguing my case is pointless because you'll skim the post, say "He still likes it, must be an idiot" and then post some comments on what I say. And really, its just a waste of time for me to post. I only joined this site a few months ago, but when I joined it looked like a nice place to discuss all things Ultimate. And with these UIM threads, its just gone to hell. I understand not likeing it, and I'm not saying you're stupid for not likeing it, but you sure implied I was with that last post. So, from now on, I'll lurk around the site, getting news, and maybe post when it feels like my ideas wont be shot down without a second thought.

 

[E]

You know, there's really no point in me posting any more. Everything I say is wrong because your minds are made up, and so arguing my case is pointless because you'll skim the post, say "He still likes it, must be an idiot" and then post some comments on what I say. And really, its just a waste of time for me to post. I only joined this site a few months ago, but when I joined it looked like a nice place to discuss all things Ultimate. And with these UIM threads, its just gone to hell. I understand not likeing it, and I'm not saying you're stupid for not likeing it, but you sure implied I was with that last post. So, from now on, I'll lurk around the site, getting news, and maybe post when it feels like my ideas wont be shot down without a second thought.

Honest to God - my purpose in discussing this with you is to change my opinion about this series. I don't want to hate it. I don't want it to suck. This is the first Ultimate anything that I've outright hated...maybe it's just me. Maybe it's just too drastic from what I'm used to or what I'm expecting out of it.

But so far - and of course I'm not blaming you for this - nothing has come close to convincing me of that. I WANT you (or someone) to show me I'm being unreasonable.

 

[DIrishB]

You know, there's really no point in me posting any more. Everything I say is wrong because your minds are made up, and so arguing my case is pointless because you'll skim the post, say "He still likes it, must be an idiot" and then post some comments on what I say.

Now you're just assuming again. I read through your posts thoroughly and just as thoroughly point out the faulty logic you use.

And really, its just a waste of time for me to post. I only joined this site a few months ago, but when I joined it looked like a nice place to discuss all things Ultimate. And with these UIM threads, its just gone to hell. I understand not likeing it, and I'm not saying you're stupid for not likeing it, but you sure implied I was with that last post. So, from now on, I'll lurk around the site, getting news, and maybe post when it feels like my ideas wont be shot down without a second thought.

Seriously, if that was directed at me I don't know what to tell you. I've already said 8,000 times in the past ten minutes I wasn't calling you stupid, and actually listed intelligent and well-thought-out reasons for why I think UIM sucks, and asked for your opinion on those, which you didn't give because you probably didn't have an answer. Which is fine, but don't resort to this crap. I never called you stupid, and I defy you to find a post where I said just that. All I've said is that I think Card's version of Iron Man sucks, and listed the many reasons. So if thats how you're going to act in a conversation, I really can't say I'll regret you not posting more. I wish you didn't feel that way, but I can't change you mind.

And honestly, I know MWoF's post was somewhere along those lines of calling you stupid, so I don't even know why this bull**** is aimed at me.

 

[Ice]

You know, there's really no point in me posting any more. Everything I say is wrong because your minds are made up, and so arguing my case is pointless because you'll skim the post, say "He still likes it, must be an idiot" and then post some comments on what I say. And really, its just a waste of time for me to post. I only joined this site a few months ago, but when I joined it looked like a nice place to discuss all things Ultimate. And with these UIM threads, its just gone to hell. I understand not likeing it, and I'm not saying you're stupid for not likeing it, but you sure implied I was with that last post. So, from now on, I'll lurk around the site, getting news, and maybe post when it feels like my ideas wont be shot down without a second thought.

Oh, dude, don't do that. It's all part of the discussion. Don't take it to heart like that, man. We all have our opinions and have the right to share them. And with that, you gotta expect some critizism somwhere. Just don't let it get to you the way it is. So people don't like what you say. Don't stop posting because of that. Just know that you had your voice heard, and move on if you want. But don't stop posting because of it. Don't let one bad experience ruin the whole thing. Come on.


You want some popcorn and a drink, too?

 

[DIrishB]

Oh, dude, don't do that. It's all part of the discussion. Don't take it to heart like that, man. We all have our opinions and have the right to share them. And with that, you gotta expect some critizism somwhere. Just don't let it get to you the way it is. So people don't like what you say. Don't stop posting because of that. Just know that you had your voice heard, and move on if you want. But don't stop posting because of it. Don't let one bad experience ruin the whole thing. Come on.

In other words, thicken up that skin.

You want some popcorn and a drink, too?

I do.

Again, seriously, I don't get how Shri was pulling what he was out of the debate.

 

[Shi_Vral]

I'm not going to stop posting, just stop posting where my opinion differs radically from what's been posted. I'm getting too upset about these posts (as is evident by the fact that I should have spent the past few hours working on a class project, and have spent more time responding with rather pointless arguments instead) and so I'm going to back off from the ones where I'm out numbered, because for me it can really start to feel like personal attacks when its 4 or 5 against 1.

Irish, if you don't mind, quote the arguments, and I'll respond. I get distracted rather easily (damn A.D.D.) and so I get on one point, and forget to respond to everything else. And sorry if the "stop calling me stupid" felt aimed at you in particular, it was more a general thing, and was my quick response to what felt like a lot of quick responses to what I was saying.

 

[DIrishB]

I'm not going to stop posting, just stop posting where my opinion differs radically from what's been posted. I'm getting too upset about these posts (as is evident by the fact that I should have spent the past few hours working on a class project, and have spent more time responding with rather pointless arguments instead) and so I'm going to back off from the ones where I'm out numbered, because for me it can really start to feel like personal attacks when its 4 or 5 against 1.

Irish, if you don't mind, quote the arguments, and I'll respond. I get distracted rather easily (damn A.D.D.) and so I get on one point, and forget to respond to everything else. And sorry if the "stop calling me stupid" felt aimed at you in particular, it was more a general thing, and was my quick response to what felt like a lot of quick responses to what I was saying.

Now see, thats fine. I thought that was aimed at me. I apologize on MWoF's behalf because he's an uncouth ruffian, but honestly no one thinks your stupid based on liking UIM. We just think you have bad taste. That was a joke by the way. I'll post the arguments in the next post.

 

[Shi_Vral]

I wont fight ya on the bad taste bit. Never did fit into the mainstream too well.

 

[DIrishB]

I wont fight ya on the bad taste bit. Never did fit into the mainstream too well.

Mainstream is epitomized by bad taste in my opinion, from pop music to crap movies.

As for the arguments, here you go:

Ok, aside from the skewed logic Card's using, lets look at the story itself. First of all, these are some of the most one-dimensional characters I've seen in awhile:

Tony - really smart freak
Rhodey - token angry black kid
Antonio - cliched rich guy who does the right thing
Zebediah - cliched rich guy who does the wrong thing
Obadiah - cliched evil really smart freak
Loni Stane - cliched money-grubbing wife

So lets see, out of the main characters none are actually original or show any characterization than beyond what I just said.

Not to mention this book is moving along with the pace of a handicapped snail. We've already covered 14 years in 4 issues and the plot really hasn't accomplished a whole lot. Maybe this is because Card is used to having more room to advance both his characters and plot, but thats not an excuse for calling this series good. Just because the guy isn't used to writing a comic book doesn't mean he deserves any more slack than someone who is. Its also apparent he did ZERO research on the character. Thats just unprofessional and irresponsible. Don't know how to make it anymore clear. There's absolutely no symbolism or underlying message to the series. I mean, Card has had a career as a writer for awhile now, you'd think he'd have picked up on these things and put them to use. Now again, I haven't read any of his novels (and you can be sure I won't after reading this trash) so I can't say whether or not he actually uses techniques like this in those, but he's surely not doing so here. Which probably means he either thinks comic fans are stupid and wouldn't pick up on them, or he thinks they're a bunch of science nerds who this stuff is enough for, or he has no concept of those things in the first place. Either way, to me that equals crap writing.

And then lets look at this issue itself. I mean come one, three kids are going to stuff another kid into a furnace and burn off his lower body because someone paid them $100? Does that seem a bit unpractical on so many levels to anyone else? And the "This one looks like coal" comment. You actually liked that? Most kids aren't cold-blooded killers, and would have a hard time holding someone in a furnace while they're burning alive, let alone three at once. Its just so unbelievable stupid. And then after doing so Rhodey is only going to give them attitude? And they're going to go run and fetch sandwiches and water for the kid they just tried to kill? Whether they were told Tony could be killed or not, its stupid, all the way around.

And just so we're clear, can you maybe explain why Card is writing this series like an amateur. As I stated above, no characterization (especially anything believable), no real plot progression, no research on the character. Doesn't those things alone make him seem like a hack?

Compared to Ultimate Iron Man they're all like Shakespeare. And at least they kept most of us wanting more, something which is definitly NOT the case with Ultimate Iron Man. And most of those characterizations were believable, at least much more so than anything in UIM. None of Card's characters in this story are even remotely relatable.

No, the other reasons I listed make the book bad. And as I said, they're not supposed to be believable, just interesting, something the Tony in this series isn't. Do you know anything about writing? Because honestly, if this series is an acceptable form of that for you, I'm going to have to say no.

 

[Shi_Vral]

Well, to me, Tony is more than just a smart freak. He's like a kid with cancer or some other major illness. He just acts so much older than he really is because of the crap life has dropped on him. I'll agree he's not all that original (feels a bit too much like Bean for my likeing, but maybe Bean is where he got some of the ideas for Tony from. Bean is the main character from Card's recient Shadow books (Ender's Shadow, ect.)) but I think he works for Tony. He had a bad/too short childhood, and so now, the Tony we know and love, is trying to make up for it with his millions of dollars by just having fun.

Rhodey is far from a token angry black kid. He is a perfect match to Tony, a smart kid who is a little too smart for his own good. He gets good grades, and so the other kids think he cheats or something and try to get/force him to help. Rhodey may not be well developed yet, but he's only had two issues, and it is called Ultimate Iron Man, not Ultimate Iron Man and Friends. It'll be interesting to see what the three kids do about school in the next issue.

Antonio may be the rich guy who tries to do the right thing, but at the end of 4, we see that he is really regretting sending Obadaih to the Baxter Building. He thought that by sending him there, he would keep him away from the rest of the world for a while, and maybe the kid would grow up and not be an ***. Its a failing of adults in a lot of liturature about kids, the "bad" kid is sent away or something similar in a hope that they will grow out of whatever it is that makes them evil. Antonio seems to have realised that maybe sending the kid there wasn't such a great idea after all.

Zebediah wasn't very fleshed out either, but we only saw him for a little bit. He was pretty much just a foil for some of the things Card wanted to set up. Force Antonio into running, making Tony grow up really fast. Card really likes forcing children to grow up fast.

Obadiah feels too much like (I'm not sure I'm remembering the name right, someone reading the Ender's Shadow books tell me if I'm wrong) Andre. Evil kid who likes to tourture/trick younger kids into doing what he wants them to. With a little edjucation, he becomes good at doing it with adults too.

Loni Stane was a crap character, but without her, Zebediah would never have had the lever to force Antonio on the run.

Next argument in the next post.

 

[ProjectX2]

Do you mean Achilles instead of Andre? I'm currently reading Ender's Shadow.

 

[DIrishB]

Well, to me, Tony is more than just a smart freak. He's like a kid with cancer or some other major illness. He just acts so much older than he really is because of the crap life has dropped on him. I'll agree he's not all that original (feels a bit too much like Bean for my likeing, but maybe Bean is where he got some of the ideas for Tony from. Bean is the main character from Card's recient Shadow books (Ender's Shadow, ect.)) but I think he works for Tony. He had a bad/too short childhood, and so now, the Tony we know and love, is trying to make up for it with his millions of dollars by just having fun.

Rhodey is far from a token angry black kid. He is a perfect match to Tony, a smart kid who is a little too smart for his own good. He gets good grades, and so the other kids think he cheats or something and try to get/force him to help. Rhodey may not be well developed yet, but he's only had two issues, and it is called Ultimate Iron Man, not Ultimate Iron Man and Friends. It'll be interesting to see what the three kids do about school in the next issue.

Antonio may be the rich guy who tries to do the right thing, but at the end of 4, we see that he is really regretting sending Obadaih to the Baxter Building. He thought that by sending him there, he would keep him away from the rest of the world for a while, and maybe the kid would grow up and not be an ***. Its a failing of adults in a lot of liturature about kids, the "bad" kid is sent away or something similar in a hope that they will grow out of whatever it is that makes them evil. Antonio seems to have realised that maybe sending the kid there wasn't such a great idea after all.

Zebediah wasn't very fleshed out either, but we only saw him for a little bit. He was pretty much just a foil for some of the things Card wanted to set up. Force Antonio into running, making Tony grow up really fast. Card really likes forcing children to grow up fast.

Obadiah feels too much like (I'm not sure I'm remembering the name right, someone reading the Ender's Shadow books tell me if I'm wrong) Andre. Evil kid who likes to tourture/trick younger kids into doing what he wants them to. With a little edjucation, he becomes good at doing it with adults too.

Loni Stane was a crap character, but without her, Zebediah would never have had the lever to force Antonio on the run.

Next argument in the next post.

So even you yourself now have to admit Card is just rehashing characters and themes from his novels. Not very imaginitive if thats the case, is it? I couldn't say that before because I haven't read his novels, but after learning from your post it makes me respect the guy even less. There's a lot to be said for originality, and that can be hard in this "seen and done everything" world we live in, but there are still people who do it all the time. Card doesn't seem to be one of them.

 

[Shi_Vral]

As for the plot moving slow, what would you have liked to happen? We've delt with why Tony has to wear the armor, why he wants to develop better armor ("I don't want to get beat just cause the other guy has some soap and water"), we're begining to see his save the weaker (in Ultimates, that's pretty much the rest of the world) mentality, how Tony and Rhoedy met, and a good bit of back story on Tony. That's what I really wanted from this Mini. Not Iron Man flying around kicking butt (that's what a monthly book is for) but why Iron Man is Iron Man. I understand you guys are upset about the whole "brain body" thing, and I agree maybe its not the most thought out idea, but as a few of you have said on many occasions "It would be good if it wasn't Iron Man." Well, to me, it's not Iron Man, its Ultimate Iron Man, who now has a reason as to why he made this cool armor, not just "Oh no, I'm a prisioner and they're forcing me to make the armor." But that's just me. Sure it's a little slow. But, he's got 5 books to tell part of the story (1 left) and then 5 more books to tell the rest. So, I'll tell you, if he screws up the ending (which Card has done once or twice) I'll hate the book too. But so far I haven't really found anything too outragouly bad to make me hate it yet. I love most of the rest of Card's writing, and to me, this just feels like one of his books with pretty pictures to go along with the words.

As to the research, well, he's still got time to match up Tony's life with the life we've had laid out for us, so give him some time. Maybe the first 5 books tell Tony's early life, and the next five talk about setting up his business and creating an acceptable history for the public eye (Tony" "Hey America, I'm a mutant and I want you to buy my stuff" America: "Oh my god, another Magneto, kill him!") and that's where the house he bought for his mother and things of that nature come in. Just because he can regrow skin and muscles doesn't mean he can overcome cancer. In fact, the cancer may be because he can regrow this stuff. The formula has gotten out of control and now cells in his brain are growing into a tumor (that's brain cancer for ya).

Ok, now the kids slamed his head into a brick wall last issue, and the brick wall broke. They there's something special. Then a guy says "I work for Tony's dad, the fire wont kill him, just hurt him, Tony's dad wants to teach him a lesson." Yeah, they're dumb. They're bullies, that's what bullies do. "I'm bigger/faster/richer/smarter than you, do what I say." We don't know how long it was before Tony's dad shows up, so we don't know how long it took his legs to grow back, and we know they're still not 100% at the end because Tony can't even walk into the house without help. So, he grows skin first, so do you. He just does it faster because of the stem cells throughout his body.

 

[Shi_Vral]

So even you yourself now have to admit Card is just rehashing characters and themes from his novels. Not very imaginitive if thats the case, is it? I couldn't say that before because I haven't read his novels, but after learning from your post it makes me respect the guy even less. There's a lot to be said for originality, and that can be hard in this "seen and done everything" world we live in, but there are still people who do it all the time. Card doesn't seem to be one of them.

Rehashing in that the characters are similar. But not as bad as some people say Millar does. I mean, Tony hasn't been sent into space to save the world from Alien Bugs, or snatched up by the government to be used as the ultimate (no pun intended) weapon in a war to take over the world. He's dealing with characters he's delt with before, so they're falling into similar roles, but he's not just reusing them. Obadiah was brought up in a very rich home, where as Achilles (thanks Project) had to make it on the streets of Amsterdamn as the leader of a gang smaller children. Obadiah doesn't strike me as the type to be able to manipulate the little kids into forming a gang, just into doing what he says to help their friends. Tony isn't growing out of control, or trying to "help" form a united earth government, or anything so global. Its more like Card had some experiance with these types of character (smarter than average children) and was able to use that to base the general idea of the character on. Maybe having read the other Card books gives me some insight into where he may be going with these characters, and so I'm interested because I want to see how he gets there. Anyway, no matter how you feel about Card right now, Irish, I'd say give at least Ender's Game a chance. They don't give out Hugo or Neubla awards for crap books. At least, they didn't in '83.

 

[DIrishB]

As for the plot moving slow, what would you have liked to happen? We've delt with why Tony has to wear the armor, why he wants to develop better armor ("I don't want to get beat just cause the other guy has some soap and water"), we're begining to see his save the weaker (in Ultimates, that's pretty much the rest of the world) mentality, how Tony and Rhoedy met, and a good bit of back story on Tony. That's what I really wanted from this Mini. Not Iron Man flying around kicking butt (that's what a monthly book is for) but why Iron Man is Iron Man.

Please don't assume I'm easily entertained and therefore only want fights in my comic books. I like a good story, something I don't find UIM to be. And as for what I want, I pretty much listed what I thought was missing from UIM above, those things which actually make a good story, and those things UIM is lacking.

I understand you guys are upset about the whole "brain body" thing, and I agree maybe its not the most thought out idea, but as a few of you have said on many occasions "It would be good if it wasn't Iron Man." Well, to me, it's not Iron Man, its Ultimate Iron Man, who now has a reason as to why he made this cool armor, not just "Oh no, I'm a prisioner and they're forcing me to make the armor." But that's just me. Sure it's a little slow. But, he's got 5 books to tell part of the story (1 left) and then 5 more books to tell the rest. So, I'll tell you, if he screws up the ending (which Card has done once or twice) I'll hate the book too. But so far I haven't really found anything too outragouly bad to make me hate it yet. I love most of the rest of Card's writing, and to me, this just feels like one of his books with pretty pictures to go along with the words.

Feels like or is a rehash of one of his books? Because the way you described the themes he uses in his books thats what it seems.

As to the research, well, he's still got time to match up Tony's life with the life we've had laid out for us, so give him some time. Maybe the first 5 books tell Tony's early life, and the next five talk about setting up his business and creating an acceptable history for the public eye (Tony" "Hey America, I'm a mutant and I want you to buy my stuff" America: "Oh my god, another Magneto, kill him!") and that's where the house he bought for his mother and things of that nature come in. Just because he can regrow skin and muscles doesn't mean he can overcome cancer. In fact, the cancer may be because he can regrow this stuff. The formula has gotten out of control and now cells in his brain are growing into a tumor (that's brain cancer for ya).

I guess I'm assuming an advanced healing factor that can regrow the entire lower half of your body wouldn't have a problem taking out cancerous cells. Ignorant me.

Ok, now the kids slamed his head into a brick wall last issue, and the brick wall broke. They there's something special. Then a guy says "I work for Tony's dad, the fire wont kill him, just hurt him, Tony's dad wants to teach him a lesson." Yeah, they're dumb. They're bullies, that's what bullies do. "I'm bigger/faster/richer/smarter than you, do what I say." We don't know how long it was before Tony's dad shows up, so we don't know how long it took his legs to grow back, and we know they're still not 100% at the end because Tony can't even walk into the house without help. So, he grows skin first, so do you. He just does it faster because of the stem cells throughout his body.

But if they're willing to seriously hurt the kid why bother bringing him sandwiches and water? Because they think his dad will kill them? Its just weak man, it really is. Weak in the stupid sense.

 

[DIrishB]

Rehashing in that the characters are similar. But not as bad as some people say Millar does. I mean, Tony hasn't been sent into space to save the world from Alien Bugs, or snatched up by the government to be used as the ultimate (no pun intended) weapon in a war to take over the world. He's dealing with characters he's delt with before, so they're falling into similar roles, but he's not just reusing them. Obadiah was brought up in a very rich home, where as Achilles (thanks Project) had to make it on the streets of Amsterdamn as the leader of a gang smaller children.

You're confusing back-story with characterization there. In all likelyhood they sound like the exact same character, just with a different history.

Obadiah doesn't strike me as the type to be able to manipulate the little kids into forming a gang, just into doing what he says to help their friends.

Despite the fact he convinced two kids to come out to the ledge with him and that if that kid Link jumped off he wouldn't die. Sounds pretty convincing to me. And these kids are supposed to be geniuses, so if they believe him that easily I don't see him having any problem getting regular street kids to follow him (assuming they don't beat him up on their first meeting).

Tony isn't growing out of control, or trying to "help" form a united earth government, or anything so global. Its more like Card had some experiance with these types of character (smarter than average children) and was able to use that to base the general idea of the character on. Maybe having read the other Card books gives me some insight into where he may be going with these characters, and so I'm interested because I want to see how he gets there. Anyway, no matter how you feel about Card right now, Irish, I'd say give at least Ender's Game a chance. They don't give out Hugo or Neubla awards for crap books. At least, they didn't in '83.

Thats true, and I'm not saying it is a crap book, especially as I haven't read it. But if he just keeps repeating and copying the same theme, characters and ideas over and over, that makes him a guy who had one good idea for a book, not a great author. In fact, it makes him completely unoriginal since then.

Tell you what, give me a rundown of the books of his that you've read, and tell me about the main character of each and the theme running through it. I bet right now they're both going to be very similar or exactly the same in all or most.

 

[Shi_Vral]

I can't really answer the second quote, because, well, I sorta covered most of your arguments already, and since I like the book, I don't see where you're getting 'hack' from. Maybe someone else that likes the book can handle that.

I have to say again that the characterizations aren't that bad, and so I'm perfectly happy with the way the characters have been handled by the story. Sure, maybe its not the best thing I've ever read, but I don't think I ever said that. I just don't think its the pile of crap most of you seem to think it is. Maybe I'm insane, maybe I like things to easily, who knows. But I've enjoyed every issue so far, and I plan on buying the rest of them because I want to read the story, and not just because I'd go a little crazy if I didn't have all the books in one form or another.

 

[DIrishB]

I can't really answer the second quote, because, well, I sorta covered most of your arguments already, and since I like the book, I don't see where you're getting 'hack' from. Maybe someone else that likes the book can handle that.

But you really didn't. You never pointed out just where any symbolism or fresh and original theme and character (something he hasn't covered to death already in his novels) is apparent at all in UIM. That was the main argument right there.

I have to say again that the characterizations aren't that bad, and so I'm perfectly happy with the way the characters have been handled by the story.

Not bad, just ignorantly simple.

Sure, maybe its not the best thing I've ever read, but I don't think I ever said that. I just don't think its the pile of crap most of you seem to think it is. Maybe I'm insane, maybe I like things to easily, who knows. But I've enjoyed every issue so far, and I plan on buying the rest of them because I want to read the story, and not just because I'd go a little crazy if I didn't have all the books in one form or another.

I'll buy them all too, and read them, not because I like them but because I'm an Ultimate completist. I'm even hoping the second mini is better than the first, as I think it'll focus on a grown up Tony and hopefully Card will pattern him after the Tony we all know and love. The only thing I'm really dreading (besides another crap story) is Card's handling of Tony's sense of humor. Card doesn't seem to have one, so I'm wondering how he's going to accurately write Tony's. Also, is he going to accurately address his drinking?