The Ultimates 2 #6 Discussion (Spoilers)

[Irish_4204]

The reason why the Defenders suck so much is because they don't have enough of clothing. I mean if they were truly in a battle, they are left so vulnerable to attacks.

 

[Goodwill]

Well, they wouldn't be able to defend themselves, either. Irony is really something, huh?

 

[Jackie Estacado]

Yes, the robot in Ultimate Nightmare was Ultimate Vision.

Thanks Ulxton

 

[Ice]

I have a question, after finally getting my chance to read the issue. Though it's probably nothing, but I found interesting.

At the end, the last page shows only Captain America from The Ultimates. If the whole team's supposed to be there, then how come only Cap is 'highlited' among the crowd? :?




Again, it's probably nothing, just me and my craziness. Just wanted to bring this up.

 

[leather_w0lf]

Wow. What a great issue.

I am not even gonna speculate on the traitor. All good theories around. Cap is a good choice, Clint, Natasha, Tony (ok, I will speculate - I don't think I saw this theory yet!) - he's got a brain tumor and he's possibly going insane and is deffinately going to die anyhow - so he helps Pym on the side with tech for the robots maybe? Who knows. He was closest to Thor, after all. He does have the media contacts and the money to shut people up.

Here's an I told you so when I said they would make Luke Cage low rent. Damn! He's so low now he can't even pay rent let alone kick anybody's arse.

Of course I think I thought the Defenders would be for real, too. I love how they were portrayed. Way to go Millar.

Peace!

Leather

 

[Bass]

At the end, the last page shows only Captain America from The Ultimates. If the whole team's supposed to be there, then how come only Cap is 'highlited' among the crowd? :?

I brought it up in my manifesto, because the traitor speaks with first hand knowledge of the operation. They make it very clear they were present, which means Captain America is the traitor. However, it's possible Iron Man and Black Widow were each lifting one of the missiles, and it's possible Wasp, Hawkeye and the rest were all there too... but I agree, the fact that the only Ultimate we can make out is Captain America implies he's the traitor - but it could be feint - discuss their disillusionment with the US, put Cap's costume on the bed, show Cap at the operation and we think it's Cap... we'll see...

 

[MoS]

I have a question, after finally getting my chance to read the issue. Though it's probably nothing, but I found interesting.

At the end, the last page shows only Captain America from The Ultimates. If the whole team's supposed to be there, then how come only Cap is 'highlited' among the crowd?

Same thing on the opening page with the giants clearing the train wreck - you can see the giants and the tiny figure of Cap.

http://www.theartofcomics.com/u13.htm -- this site has Hitch's pencils-and-inks for sale and some of the uncolored panels look better (IMHO) than the colored ones - especially the panel of Tiny Hank, looking out over the city. Sometimes it's easier to see panel details before they are colored, too. Plus you get to see Hitch's original drawing of naked Giant Man, instead of the artfully blurred one...

 

[Jackie Estacado]

lol, yes and sumone has bought it!

 

[Bass]

Y'know, Jackie? That really is the best avatar ever.

 

[Jackie Estacado]

lol, very kind of to say Bass and may i compliment u on your indepth Traitor Manifest thread - very good work son

 

[MaxwellSmart]

The reason I don't think that it's Captain America is that a good solidier doesn't question orders and Captain America is the perfect solidier.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Captain America is highlighted because he's the posterchild for The Ultimates.

 

[Ricky]

Finally got the issue

I personally found it great. Ultimaes 2 just keeps being the best comic out there. I loved the way the Defenders were just normal people trying to be something special. I also start to love Hank. He's just so human.
And I don't see any problems with him and Valkyry, either. He's got to start a new life eventually, soesn't he?

About the traitor:
I definitely think it's either Hawkeye or Wasp.

 

[Nurhachi]

I also loved the issue. I really liked the thing with Hank and Valkyrie, i mean, its more realistic having a "rebound" girl after a bad breakup for affection. Also liked Ultron and Vision 2. And that Scarlet Witch flirting with Vision was great. One thing i didnt like tho was that there is too many super humans. All those Giant Men and Super Soldiers, theres too many!

 

[DIrishB]

I also loved the issue. I really liked the thing with Hank and Valkyrie, i mean, its more realistic having a "rebound" girl after a bad breakup for affection. Also liked Ultron and Vision 2. And that Scarlet Witch flirting with Vision was great. One thing i didnt like tho was that there is too many super humans. All those Giant Men and Super Soldiers, theres too many!

This has been mentioned several times on the board, about there being too many super humans already in the Ultimate Universe. Perhaps Ultimate Extinction will indeed take place after Ultimates 2 and many of these copycat super humans (the Union, the other Giant Men, etc) will all be killed off by Ultimate Gah Lak Tus. Hopefully.

 

[MaxwellSmart]

On the issue of the number of super heroes from the union. I think that they are going with the idea that every country from the European Union, to which there are 25 member nations, has a captain. This does strike as a bit odd though.

 

[Guijllons]

But, if you consider that all the countries in Europe agree on a single course of action, only the effected countries will send their captain into a situation. Furthermore, one hero per nation may seem a little skimpy too. Captain Belgium only has 4 or 5 million people to the ultimate 240 million. whereas captain Britain has 60 million people to oversee.
Europe is of a comparable size to the US but with twice the population. I think it all kinda levels out really.
And if HYDRA are from the EU, then they certainly have things to worry about. As we have seen from the recent french referendum on the european constitution, Europe is a massively divided union. In this fictional universe, things could come to a head rather quickly, and the Union would certainly be earning their paychecks.

However, back to the issue at hand.
I'm curious as to why the "traitor" (in quotes, because the word used could equally be patriot) went to see Hank. As we saw from the scene in the treskillion, Hank wants to make amends, he wants to be part of the Ultimates again. He isn't showing real resentment towards them. If Hank knew who the traitor was, wouldn't he tell Fury to gain their trust again?
He's a desperate man, but would he rat out a friend?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

However, back to the issue at hand.
I'm curious as to why the "traitor" (in quotes, because the word used could equally be patriot) went to see Hank. As we saw from the scene in the treskillion, Hank wants to make amends, he wants to be part of the Ultimates again. He isn't showing real resentment towards them. If Hank knew who the traitor was, wouldn't he tell Fury to gain their trust again?
He's a desperate man, but would he rat out a friend?

That's a good point. I can relate to Hank at the moment with U.S. Government not allowing for second chances.... But still I wouldn't let someone destroy my country just because I ****ed up at one point and no one will take me back. Hank's gotta work at it and who knows how Hank's life will end up.

 

[Guijllons]

As I've mentioned before in real world terms about the US being hijacked, and that a true patriot could easily be seen as a traitor.. How patriotic is Hank?

how much does this man really believe in America, or the Ultimates for that matter? Does he just want a playground for his experiments, or does he deep down appreciate what it is that is the motivation behind the Ultimates. We know that both Fury and Tony are patriotic idealists, is Hank in it for similar reasons to Hawkeye for example? Just doing what he does, because that's all he can do.

I think this whole issue of the traitor really hangs over that one point. How patriotic IS Hank Pym?

 

[Solaris]

finally got a hold of that issue.

like a lot of people have expressed, the issue was a little underwhelming. i noticed in your comments that certain truths got revealed, issues explored. but none of them really came directly through the use of the defenders in this issue. the only thing was how 'low' hank would sink in trying to 'do good' (??) and get onto some kind of super hero team. hank is a good guy, i think, even if he has issues with temper and has beaten up his wife. that doesn't mean he doesn't want to 'do good' on a larger scale (maybe even to compensate for the failures on a personal level).

as for the traitor, i agree with those people who have excluded fury, cap america and the non-americans on the team, here and in the two 'traitor' threads. as to tony stark:

...the traitor says, "Oh, Hank" it sounds like something someone would say who was on a very personal level with Hank and it sounds like something a women would say. The other thing ... is that the dialogue between Hank and the traitor was very reminiscent of the dialogue between Hank and Wasp earlier in the issue.

i totally agree with this. gut feeling has it it must be a woman. however, there is another woman in the game who also has good relations with hank, albeit on a less intimate level. and that would be betty.

and whatever the ultimates were doing stealing weapons and disabling a country (in the last picture) turned my guts. how can it not turn the guts of a 'good guy' on the inside, too?

 

[Solaris]

...because the traitor speaks with first hand knowledge of the operation. They make it very clear they were present...

do they actually make it clear they were present?
Let's not forget that Betty would have excellent knowledge of all the going on in the team, and all the stuff the team is involved in, as she is the PR lady, no?

 

[ourchair]

As I've mentioned before in real world terms about the US being hijacked, and that a true patriot could easily be seen as a traitor.. How patriotic is Hank?

how much does this man really believe in America, or the Ultimates for that matter? Does he just want a playground for his experiments, or does he deep down appreciate what it is that is the motivation behind the Ultimates. We know that both Fury and Tony are patriotic idealists, is Hank in it for similar reasons to Hawkeye for example? Just doing what he does, because that's all he can do.

I think this whole issue of the traitor really hangs over that one point. How patriotic IS Hank Pym?

Valid question, but I'll counter by suggesting that Pym's patriotism isn't really important to the traitor.

All that matters is that Pym committed one inexcusable act that made him a less public-friendly and marketable individual as a member of the Ultimates. That interests the traitor because what matters to him/her is that Pym is an individual who feels that he has been brushed aside and ousted by the system simply because he didn't measure up to their stringent standards.

Regardless of whether or not one finds Pym despicable or noble, he is now the "guy who got shafted", and that's enough reason for the traitor to believe he can be courted.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Isn't it obvious that Hank is 100% behind the Ultimates. I mean even after he's been humiliated and ruined by them, he still wants to help. He's made his errors but he knows the side of good. It didn't really seem to me like he was just doing it so that he can become a huge celebrity.

 

[ranaj]

Betty, Betty, Betty ...

Yes, it is Bety. Betty is the traitor. She is the one who has been manipulating people. She manipulated Cap into attacking Hank following the attack on Jan (by claiming - with no supporting evidence - that Hank has ahsitory of domestic abuse). She was responsible for the fiasco of the Hulk cover story (which she then used to expose the Ultimates to public criticism). She was genuinely cynical about Fury's mock sympathy for the injured and grieving following Hulk's ramage in Ultimates Vol 1.

Betty showed genuine affection for Bruce Banner following the Hulk saga in Vol 1 (remember she wrote a letter every day for months, requesting personal visits with Bruce) and she showed genuine remorse when Bruce was facing a death sentence - blaming Fury and the Ultimates for the death of her beloved Bruce is more than enough reason for betrayal. Disgust at a cynically mourning Fury is enough reason to betray the Ultimates and her repulsion at the militarism of Captain America (who is so easily manipulated to act violently) is enough reason to betray the Ultimates.

Betty is the betrayer and she knows where all the Ultimates skeletons are buried! Question is, who are her allies?

 

[René]

Yes, it is Bety. Betty is the traitor. She is the one who has been manipulating people. She manipulated Cap into attacking Hank following the attack on Jan (by claiming - with no supporting evidence - that Hank has ahsitory of domestic abuse). She was responsible for the fiasco of the Hulk cover story (which she then used to expose the Ultimates to public criticism). She was genuinely cynical about Fury's mock sympathy for the injured and grieving following Hulk's ramage in Ultimates Vol 1.

Betty showed genuine affection for Bruce Banner following the Hulk saga in Vol 1 (remember she wrote a letter every day for months, requesting personal visits with Bruce) and she showed genuine remorse when Bruce was facing a death sentence - blaming Fury and the Ultimates for the death of her beloved Bruce is more than enough reason for betrayal. Disgust at a cynically mourning Fury is enough reason to betray the Ultimates and her repulsion at the militarism of Captain America (who is so easily manipulated to act violently) is enough reason to betray the Ultimates.

Betty is the betrayer and she knows where all the Ultimates skeletons are buried! Question is, who are her allies?

DUDE! THAT MAKES PERFECT SENSE. It's Betty. I agree with you 100%

 

[E]

Although I dismissed the idea when I first heard it, how awesome would it be if Bruce gave Betty Hulk serum like an STD?

 

[Goodwill]

Kind of odd, but realistic and something Millar would definitely do.

 

[Ice]

Yes, it is Bety. Betty is the traitor. She is the one who has been manipulating people. She manipulated Cap into attacking Hank following the attack on Jan (by claiming - with no supporting evidence - that Hank has ahsitory of domestic abuse). She was responsible for the fiasco of the Hulk cover story (which she then used to expose the Ultimates to public criticism). She was genuinely cynical about Fury's mock sympathy for the injured and grieving following Hulk's ramage in Ultimates Vol 1.

Betty showed genuine affection for Bruce Banner following the Hulk saga in Vol 1 (remember she wrote a letter every day for months, requesting personal visits with Bruce) and she showed genuine remorse when Bruce was facing a death sentence - blaming Fury and the Ultimates for the death of her beloved Bruce is more than enough reason for betrayal. Disgust at a cynically mourning Fury is enough reason to betray the Ultimates and her repulsion at the militarism of Captain America (who is so easily manipulated to act violently) is enough reason to betray the Ultimates.

Betty is the betrayer and she knows where all the Ultimates skeletons are buried! Question is, who are her allies?

But didnt Loki say that the traitor is on the team. Remember how he said about "super soldier" (not literally one, but you get the idea). Betty isn't on the team, so it can't be her.

 

[Goodwill]

Why would Betty sell out Banner? She's so fixed on him that it would be really out of character for that to be so.

 

[ranaj]

Sell out banner?

No. Not sell out Banner, but surely sell out the team which almost killed him, demoted him and embarassed/humiliated him.

Exposing the Ultimates cover-up of the Hulk connection was a means of embarassing the Ultimates Not Banner. Indeed, it may be seen as a means to having Banner freed. And it worked on both counts.