The Ultimates 2 #6 Discussion (Spoilers)

[Blacksword]

I liked the issues, very different in tone and as such a shock to the system but good in an offbeat kind of way. It also addresses the issue of other people wanting to be super heroes... which happened a lot in 616. This is what would really happen, a bunch of losers who get ridiculed and and have to deal with vigilante charges.

As to the traitor, the fact that it's unexpected and someone who seems to have believed in America once leaves out Wanda and Pietro as well as Natasha completely. I'd strike Tony off of the list as him being an idealist would make his turn a bit expected, but he doesn't strike me as the covert type. That leaves Janet, Cap, Fury, Hawkeye, with a slight possibility it's Tony. the "Oh, Hank." line makes me suspect Janet... though how much she could sabotage the operations... and the traitor is in league with associates of Loki.... To be honest I have no clue. If it weren't for that "Oh Hank" I'd be tempted to say Cap but oh well, next month I guess.

 

[MaxwellSmart]

This wasn't a great issue, but we learned a lot. Overall I would say I enjoyed it. It made me doubt the intentions of Shield and the Union.

As for the Defenders they turned out to be a bunch of loser as promised. They seemed to be there to accentuate what dire straits Hank Pym was in. I think if Valkyrie's outfit was any sluttier she would have had to be called Hooker Girl. I mean who goes into a fight wearing only a thong? That said I can't say I look down Hank for sleeping with her. I mean who says no to that, I don't think I could respect him if he hadn't. I thought the fact that no one else had superpowers, but Hank seemed kind of stupid. If you want to be a hero, but you don't have superpowers join the FDNY.

I thought that the thing with Ultron and Vision two was cool, but I think it should have been a bigger deal. Now I would like to see both of them, become Hank's personal bodyguards. Next we need to see them fight. I thought it was pretty funny that Wanda was flirting with one of them, presumably with Vision two.

As for the union member, I counted 22 ICBMs and two flying in the air. Assuming both Black Widow and Iron Man were carrying ICBMs. That means that there are at least 22 captains. Does this strike anyone else as too high? The whole thing with the two hundred foot tall Giant men was pretty stupid. I counted five of them in the background of the last page. They're great for lifting heavy things, but what use would they be in a war zone? What are they going to do stomp on the enemies? They would have to be the easiest target for a rocket or tank. That is like using the Goodyear blimp as your get away vehicle.

Finally who is the traitor, the million dollar question of the night? I was a firm believer that Black Widow was the traitor, but now I am shifting my vote to Wasp. Three things made me change my vote. First, the traitor says, "This isn't a nation I believe in anymore." This means that the traitor that once considered themselves patriotic. This pretty much stomps out Wanda, Pietro, and Natasha since America seems to be their adopted country and they haven't expressed any patriotic sentiment. Second, that Hank and the traitor are on such a casual basis implies that it's a member of the Ultimates that Hank has good relations with. This rules out Captain America, since I can't imagine them saying anything nicely to each other. Third, the traitor says, "Oh, Hank" it sounds like something someone would say who was on a very personal level with Hank and it sounds like something a women would say. The other thing that makes me think it's Wasp is that the dialogue between Hank and the traitor was very reminiscent of the dialogue between Hank and Wasp earlier in the issue.

 

[Goodwill]

So, with this Vision II stuff... Does Hank mention the first one that came along?

 

[Lynx]

Eh, not bad. Probably the weakest Ultimates issue out so far, but it was ok (And I was looking foward to the Defenders!) I HOPE some of the Defenders (Son of Satan, Power Man and Valkeryie) show up again with super powers, to give them some credibility. Was Vision II really necessary? I mean, unless the original Vision is destroyed fighting Galactus, why didn't he just call him something else? As for the traitor. . .I'm down to two, MAYBE three people. The Maximoffs and Natasha are out because Pym was suprised and they would have been obvious. The conversation was a little too personal for Hawkeye (Plus, he's a trained black ops soldier, I doubt he'd lose his patriotism over all of that). Thor's locked up, Banner is in hiding (And couldn't have leaked info about himself while he was locked up). This leaves Cap, Janet or Tony. Tony. . .well, he doesn't fit the bill, since like people have said, he's an idealist. Plus, Tony has a certain 1920's Great Gatsby way about him when he talks and I didn't get that from the Traitor. That leaves Janet and Cap. Cap could have been faking the whole "I hate you" thing to Pym to throw everyone off. Plus, he's a prime canidate for losing his patriotism since America was FAR different in the 1940s then today. Janet fits the bill because the conversation did have a personal vibe to it, plus it seems Janet was nice to Hank at the Triskellion. . .so, bets are on Janet or Cap. We'll see in July.

 

[E]

One more thing, anyone notice the part where Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch show up and Quicksilver asks Scarlet Witch if she was flirting with the Vision II robot. I thought that was a cool nod to their relationship in 616.

That was awesome. 8)

 

[Goodwill]

Did you guys think that the character was wearing a glove because they were trying to cover up their skin complexion? Perhaps this is our biggest clue. Since most characters are white in the title, if the traitor were to be Jan or Fury than they would have to make them wear a glove, you know? Hmm...

 

[Seldes Katne]

I was all set to really dislike this issue, but I just couldn't quite manage it. Parts of it were painfully funny (in what UltimateE once called a "train-wreck factor" kind of way). I could sympathize with some of the desire these people had for wanting to be superheroes, although when Hank commented that in order to be considered a hero, "you probably need to do something heroic", I mentally added, "You also have to be at least marginally competent at what you do". Maxwell Smart has the right idea above — you want to be a hero, become a fireman or a paramedic, or a tutor, or something. You don't even need a costume for that, but you do get some useful training in the process.

This issue certainly didn't have the emotional impact of #5. (Which is probably just as well—I'm still exhausted after the knock-down, drag-out fight....) We at least got to see little snippets of the big picture in the background around the Defenders storyline. Did anyone else notice "the glance" the two androids shared behind Pym when he was talking about "utterly expendable war machines"? I wonder just how sentient these things are at this point.

As for the Defenders they turned out to be a bunch of loser as promised. They seemed to be there to accentuate what dire straits Hank Pym was in. I think if Valkyrie's outfit was any sluttier she would have had to be called Hooker Girl. I mean who goes into a fight wearing only a thong?

Well, she's also wearing something that passes for a bra, but I agree — someone seriously needs to explain to this girl the superior crime-fighting advantage of wearing a decently-fitting pair of pants. Hellcat's outfit wasn't much better, but it was at least a step up from the bikini-babe look Valkyrie was sporting. (Did anyone else notice the name "Patsy Walker" appearing for the third time in the Ultimate Universe? She was blond the last couple of times, so either this is a different woman, or she's dyed her hair, or something....)

That said I can't say I look down Hank for sleeping with her. I mean who says no to that, I don't think I could respect him if he hadn't.

Well, I for one would have had no trouble at all saying NO to that. (In fact, had it been me, that girl would have been hustled home and bundled into a decent outfit pronto....) I had exactly the opposite reaction to the fact that Hank was sleeping with her; any sympathy I had for him pretty much evaporated at this point. Barbara isn't quite young enough to be his daughter, and I realize that 18 is the age of consent in the United States, but the whole episode had a "college frat-boy" air to it that really bugged me.

(At times like this I have to step back and remind myself that I'm really not a member of the target group for this title. I think it's being pitched to a younger, hipper, and mostly male audience, and I'm none of the above. I also have some very old-fashioned attitudes about sexuality. I realize that many people don't share those attitudes. Such is life. Moving on....)

I'll be interested in seeing the backstory on what happened with the Ultimates in terms of "crippling a nation this morning". Where were they, and why were they there? While I can support Captain America's rescue of the aid workers held hostage (as much as I like Thor, I disagree with him on this one), but a pre-emptive strike is another story altogether. However, at this point I don't have enough information to make a decision, so I guess I'll have to wait until the next issue at least.

Oh, and just wanted to add that for me, one of the funniest parts of this issue wasn't the story, the art, or the characters, it was the Discovery Channel ad for their Alien Planet special. The actual show aired a week and a half ago (and was quite good, by the way), and the ad just hit the stands yesterday. I hope they didn't pay for it in advance.... :wink:

 

[Wamu]

Did you guys think that the character was wearing a glove because they were trying to cover up their skin complexion? Perhaps this is our biggest clue. Since most characters are white in the title, if the traitor were to be Jan or Fury than they would have to make them wear a glove, you know? Hmm...

I think the person was white. the shading on the arm seems conclusive to me. also, I like to think that Millar plays fair with us. for example, with the whole gunnthar/loki thing. gunthar/loki was popping up all over the place in past issues.

look at cap. he and janet were the first to be confronted with the revalations about Hulk/Banner. later, Cap on his own goes to check on Thor to see if he was behind the leak. rather good move to remove doubt from yourself huh? and if I am right, the banner eulogy read by Cap adds a certain zing to that scene if cap is indeed the cause of Banner's trouble.

lastly, and I know this a bit of a stretch, but it just seems like something Millar would do. making Cap betray the chain-of-command.

 

[marvelman]

It's gotta be Hawkeye, Wasp, Natasha, or Cap'n A.

But I am pretty certain it's Hawkeye. Here's why:

Ultimates 1 Issue 9: As they prep to go out, Hawkeye is talking on the phone to his "wife"- plausible. Ok, so then, he starts talking about the "good old days"- when it was just Fury and him trying to save the world. Says how he misses those days.

Ultimates 2 Issue 2: Hawkeye comes in to the meeting late. No explanation.

Ultimates 2 Issue 4: Hawkeye comes home and "doesn't know how to work a cell phone." But he did in Ult. 1 Iss. 9... or so it seemed...

Ultimates 2 Issue 6: The traitor doesn't like what the U.S. is up to. Wishes the U.S. was like it used to be. This goes back to Ult. 1 Iss. 9.

Plus, he may feel helpless because he is the only one without superpowers... "Hey, man, we all woulda been great if we had frickin' IronTech armor back there." Ultimates 2 Issue 5.




Reasons for Cap: Misses how U.S. used to be. costume on bed.

Reasons for Wasp: no real GOOD reasons, but it could be her.

Reasons for Natasha: She's a frickin' Russian spy and a master of deception.

But I think evidence points to Hawkeye the most.

My two cents.

 

[ngnot]

The introduction of Vision 2 made me really resent (even more) the delays around the Galactus trilogy.

Why did they start it if they can't be bothered to finish it?!

Have they even selected an artist for the final chapter?!

The Ultimates is my favourite book and that stupid trilogy is taking away from my enjoyment of it :x

Oh well, summer is here, screw comics!

 

[Bass]

I'm just posting what I posted on Millarworld:

We LOVED doing The Defenders... I love these guys.

I have this personal hatred for a trend in super hero comics. The trend is for a writer to take pre-existing characters and ideas that have been around for decades that they personally don't like and then 'revamp' them by making them pathetic and proceed to just take pot shots at something that can't defend itself. This type of writing really disgusts me.

Because these writers hate the characters, they miss the point.

Here, Hitllar have done something wonderful. Millar said he loves them and you can tell that he and Hitch really do. It was a wonderfully funny issue which had me howling with laughter at the sheer ineptitude of these characters, as well as Pym's constant failure, as well as making me feel genuinely sorry for the bloke. Hitllar loved these losers so much, I fell in love with them too.

The next time I see another 'revamp', I'll calm down and read this issue again, because it stands as a testament: you can take any pre-existing character or idea and do what ever you want to them, no matter how awful, provided you truly love them. If you do, it'll be a celebration.

Just look at Hank. This guy is an arrogant, self-centred, proud, and weak man. He insults Banner, can't defend himself in a fight, beats his wife, tries to bully Captain America... but here I am, laughing at his misfortune, I catch my breath and then I hear myself say, "Oh, that poor man".

Well done guys, you walk as giants.

And for those of you who say it wasn't as intense as the first 5 - that's the point. It's a wonderful pacing issue where we are just allowed to unwind before Grand Theft America.

I loved this issue.

 

[E]

I was all set to really dislike this issue, but I just couldn't quite manage it. Parts of it were painfully funny (in what UltimateE once called a "train-wreck factor" kind of way).

Yeah, Millar had done a good job hyping how pathetic these guys were. He was dead on, and did a good job portraying it. How said is it that Nighthawk almost got killed by a bunch of thugs? I really thought they were going to kill him. And it was funny in a sad sort of way how they had to lie to themselves about their powers, funding, friendships, etc. Compare this with other superhero-wanna be groups (isn't that what the GLA are?) - THIS is exactly what it would be like. They are a joke, to be sure, but without turning the book into a goofy parody title. Excellent work by Millar on that.

Did anyone else notice "the glance" the two androids shared behind Pym when he was talking about "utterly expendable war machines"? I wonder just how sentient these things are at this point.

Oooh - I hadn't caught that! Nice catch.

Barbara isn't quite young enough to be his daughter, and I realize that 18 is the age of consent in the United States, but the whole episode had a "college frat-boy" air to it that really bugged me.

That's how you know it's a good book - when it can awe you, and make you sad like with #5, then just iritate you like it did in #6.

Oh, and just wanted to add that for me, one of the funniest parts of this issue wasn't the story, the art, or the characters, it was the Discovery Channel ad for their Alien Planet special.

Marvel might not care too much about irritating or angering the readers over the delays, but this kind of stuff will cost them. Even if they can pull ads in time, how much is that setting them back? How much of that loss gets passed onto us?

 

[E]

I'm just posting what I posted on Millarworld:

How does he take to being called "Hitllar"? :lol:

And for those of you who say it wasn't as intense as the first 5 - that's the point. It's a wonderful pacing issue where we are just allowed to unwind before Grand Theft America.

I loved this issue.

Agreed.

 

[MoS]

How does he take to being called "Hitllar"?

When Bass returns to earth, following Millar's comment about being called "Hitllar", I am sure he'll tell you...

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Few things.

Seldes on Pym sleeping with Barbara. We all know that it was wrong and whatnot but I seriously thought it was great because it really showed how human Pym really was. I mean that just sealed the deal for me. You see him trying to do good things but when he goes and pulls something like sleeping with a 19 year old hottie you know that he's still a very very flawed person. What's even better about it is the action of sleeping with her wasn't exactly and "evil" act that people would view him as a villain. It was temptation that drove and that just makes you think about how weak of a man he really is, even if his heart's in the right spot. Anyway, it was just a really human aspect of the character that was definitely a good move on Millar's part as far as characterizing Pym, IMO.

Vision II. Does Pym have the clearance now to know that there's a Vision I? I do like the idea of Vision I being downloaded into Vision II but Vision I already looks like the Vision we're expecting to see. Maybe they'll take the remaing parts and attach them onto Vision II like they were doing with the supersoldiers. As for Ultron, he'd probably get "jealous" and that's when his turn to the darkside would follow.

It's not ****in' Captain America. Get over it :x And if you think it is Cap, you're a dirty hippie.

 

[MoS]

Seldes on Pym sleeping with Barbara. We all know that it was wrong and whatnot but I seriously thought it was great because it really showed how human Pym really was.

The thing that "saved" the Hank-Barbara thing for me is the fact that I think he *does* actually care for her. Probably doesn't love her, exactly. Plus, I can't see someone who has quite the bruised and beaten ego that Hank has would turn down the (fairly flattering, at least on the surface) offer. It's also not a one-time thing, so it almost falls under the heading of "relationship." Just... not quite.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

The thing that "saved" the Hank-Barbara thing for me is the fact that I think he *does* actually care for her. Probably doesn't love her, exactly. Plus, I can't see someone who has quite the bruised and beaten ego that Hank has would turn down the (fairly flattering, at least on the surface) offer. It's also not a one-time thing, so it almost falls under the heading of "relationship." Just... not quite.

True but you know if Jan ever walked back into Hank's life... he'd drop Valkyrie in a second.

 

[MoS]

True but you know if Jan ever walked back into Hank's life... he'd drop Valkyrie in a second.

Maybe she did walk back in for that last scene...

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Maybe she did walk back in for that last scene...

:shock: OoOoOoo Deep. As long as it's not Cap, I don't care.

The traitor. I still don't see why Black Widow is out of the question. Though, if it was Jan and there was a fight between her and Scarlet Witch with some "you give mutants a bad name" dialogue that'd be sweet.

 

[E]

Maybe she did walk back in for that last scene...

Very true...