The New 52 general discussion

[J. Agamemnon]

Is there a Black Adam series? I would really like to just see a Black Adam series, possibly written by Ennis and under the Vertigo print.

 

[Zombipanda]

Is there a Black Adam series? I would really like to just see a Black Adam series, possibly written by Ennis and under the Vertigo print.

There isn't! But that's a good idea.

Though, Vertigo isn't doing DC properties any more.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

There isn't! But that's a good idea.

Though, Vertigo isn't doing DC properties any more.

Really? I wonder why.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Loved The Shade No 1!!! Splash page to remember at the end of the story...

It's totally building off the Starman series.

Ressurection Man No 2... Losing initial interest...really? Turned into water??!?

Everytime he dies he loses the power before and gains a new one, hence the water power.

 

[Zombipanda]

Really? I wonder why.

Because they've transitioned into a creator-owned properties imprint.

I think that's a good thing.

 

[E]

Because they've transitioned into a creator-owned properties imprint.

I think that's a good thing.

Maybe, but I would personally be more interested on stories that can't be done in the DCU proper. Like Marvel MAX.

 

[Zombipanda]

Maybe, but I would personally be more interested on stories that can't be done in the DCU proper. Like Marvel MAX.

Really? Because I'd rather have Sweet Tooth, The Unwritten, Scalped, Northlanders, DMZ......

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I like Sweet Tooth and Unwritten. Unwritten is my favorite of the two.

 

[Friday]

Out of curiosity, what books aren't you guys seeing from DC right now that you'd like to pick up month-to-month?

Honestly, I can't really think of any. I primarily like Horror and Superhero comics so what they're doing is right up my alley. Maybe something a little more grounded than what we've got now, something really street level and crime focused like Gotham Central was. Maybe a Vic Sage Question book like that.

I got Animal Man #2 at the comic shop in the Columbus Convention Center yesterday. I still don't have Animal man #1. I'm getting progressively more and more annoyed by this. If I don't have a copy by the release of issue 3 I'm just going to buy the damned digital copy.

So issue 2 of Grifter wasn't any better than issue 1. It was pretty repetitive compared to issue 1. He tries to tell Gretchen about the demonites, kills some, runs. Government is looking for him. I think that I might swap it out on my list for Frankenstein.

 

[E]

Really? Because I'd rather have Sweet Tooth, The Unwritten, Scalped, Northlanders, DMZ......

I didn't mean I'd rather have DCU character books over those, just that there's no reason why they can't do it.

It doesn't even have to be Vertigo; the name doesn't matter.

 

[Zombipanda]

I didn't mean I'd rather have DCU character books over those, just that there's no reason why they can't do it.

It doesn't even have to be Vertigo; the name doesn't matter.

They don't need an equivalent to MAX.

Just look at Wonder Woman.

It's so good....

 

[bluebeast]

Just look at Wonder Woman.

It's so good....

Agreed. Wonder Woman 2 was a huge step up from #1 which was already quite good to begin with.

I've been pleased so far with the titles I've got from the second month but this week was especially promising as Batman continued to be just as good (if not better) than #1 and Justice League was infenetly better (we still haven't seen Aquaman or Wonder Woman other than the backup feature though).

 

[Zombipanda]

Agreed. Wonder Woman 2 was a huge step up from #1 which was already quite good to begin with.

I've been pleased so far with the titles I've got from the second month but this week was especially promising as Batman continued to be just as good (if not better) than #1 and Justice League was infenetly better (we still haven't seen Aquaman or Wonder Woman other than the backup feature though).

Haven't checked out Justice League 2 yet and I'm not especially interested. Despite all the snark it gets, I'm actually pretty fond of Lee's art. But John's writing doesn't excite me (I didn't get into his "golden years" series' like Teen Titans and JSA in the same way others did; and while I can respect his work on Green Lantern, it's ultimately popcorn fare that I'll read, at best, in disposable collections. The only thing of his I was genuinely fond of was Booster Gold), and the new interpretations of the individual characters are generally strong enough and divergent enough from each other that their teaming up holds no interest for me.

I think the advantage DC has over Marvel is the inherent scope of each of their core franchises, and I think for the most part, this relaunch has done a good job of highlighting their individual strengths. Superman is this quintessential weird science action hero. And he represents the best aspects of the human (and, if you want to be nationalistic, AMUHRUHCAAAAN!) spirit better than Captain America ever could. Batman is street vigilantism and gothic horror. Wonder Woman is the menacing, gnostic intrusion of old world paganism into the modern world. Flash is an artist's showcase: kineticism and Kirbyesque high concepts splashed against colorful and visually/conceptually flamboyant threats. Seriously, the Flash at his best is superhero comics at its best. As far as portraying the inherent artistic advantages of comic books versus other mediums, this dude and Spider-Man are the uncontested champs, and Manapul and Buccellato are really slinging it out of the park. Green Lantern is cosmic space opera (and while I respect Johns' work and even more explicitly respect the work of Mahnke and Bedard, I'd much rather read Marvel's old cosmic stuff. Seriously. I've said it before and I'll say it again. With the right combination of writer, director, and actors, Marvel cosmic could be the next Star Wars. It could impact the current gen of kids in the same way that Star Wars has impacted kids since the 70's). Aquaman is.... ahem........ Aquaman is Aquaman. I think he could be one of the greatest, but that requires being in a book where both the starring character and the writer don't spend all their time convincing the audience that he's not a joke through the process of showing how much he's like Superman. Maybe I'll put my own pitch up some day, but I barely have an inkling of where I'd start.

So, yeah, that was roundabout. You can see the adderall kicking in. Prepare yourselves for a diatribe (not here, but in a mystery thread!) to match the epic proportions of my Spider-Island post. My point is this.
1) I don't think that either Marvel or DC is objectively better than the other. But I do think that, as far as their flagship characters go, DC is in a unique position of having leads who best exemplify the most electric sub-genres of the superhero tableau.
2) For the most part, the relaunch has done a fine job of exploiting these strengths (Cases in point: reinvigorating Superman as discontent proletarian hero, handing Flash over to the artists, stripping the pretenses of explicit superheroism from Wonder Woman). While some of the larger franchises clearly show the bloating of a fractured vision, each hero (barring Aquaman), has a really strong premise that stands on its own two legs. Action Comics, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern (or maybe GLC), Flash. In fact, they've done such a fine job that the intrusion of one character into the story of another would only detract from the individual strengths they've built.
3) These characters are strong enough and diverse enough (diverse in terms of art and narrative rather than demographic. Clearly, they're all conservative white bread) that I can't find a compelling reason to read about them as a team. That's not to say there aren't Justice League stories I haven't liked, or I won't find to like in the future, but I find myself asking myself, what will this story provide that isn't provided more effectively in their solo stories? I know it can't have the sublime wordless motion of Flash, or the gnostic brutality of Wonder Woman, or the gilded science-myth world building of Superman. All these things will be distilled by its nature. I don't think it inherently demeans their characterization. I can enjoy each solo book just fine in the awareness that their individual strengths will be softened by the needs of a team book. But I have yet to find a quantifiable core value by which JL would justify its existence. I'm not saying there isn't one, and would happy to hear an argument that would sell me on the concept.
4) Not really cogent to the resulting question, but I think credit needs to be given where credit is due..... I think this is a testament to the quality of this relaunch. There's a lot of garbage across the 52 titles but I've been impressed practically across the board with all of DC's core flagship heroes. If anything, I view my lack of interest in a team book as a testament to the strength of each character's strength. I don't begrudge the existence of a "core" JL title, but I desperately hope it doesn't interfere in their individual stories. It's a great blueprint for a shared universe that benefits from a minimization of crossover.

That being said bb, and making it clear that I haven't read the second part (but don't worry about spoilers), what makes the second issue better than the first?

 

[Joe Kalicki]

The second issue of Swamp Thing is an improvement from the mess of the first issue of Swamp Thing (which I thought was a mess) and reminds me of Alan Moore's story.

Hawk and Dove disappointed me immensely. I wanted to give it a shot, but the art is horrendous and story is so hokey. Look out for the new tag team of Condor and Swan! Who's next? Egret and Swallow?

Egret and Swallow is going to be the XXX parody.

 

[Bass]

I read WONDER WOMAN #2 and found it rather aggravating.

Zombipanda — your whole shebang about how "Superman is a great weird science action hero, Wonder Woman is paganism vs modern world", this are very intelligent critiques of these properties, and somewhat insightful but, the problem I have with them is the same problem I have with Grant Morrison's similar approach which is to take an outside metaphor, then apply it wholesale to these characters and turn them into a symbol-system. Here's the problem and why I found WONDER WOMAN to be so annoying: the idea of telling a story about paganism intruding on the modern world is a fine one, and is one of substance.

But Wonder Woman wears a metal bikini and has a lasso of truth and can fly and has an invisible jet.

This is writing from the outside-in. It's looking at these characters, trying to find an external system of thought or ideology or meaning and then applying it to the characters in order to legitimize them and give them substance, instead of writing inside-out, finding out about these characters and their world, and then developing stories from them. In the case of WONDER WOMAN, I just find it annoying that we have this dark, incestuous, vicious world of rape and death and supernatural occultism (taken from Greek Myth) and yet the protagonist is called Wonder Woman, has bright shiny jewellry and a golden lasso.

I can't enjoy the bizarre contrast.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Egret and Swallow is going to be the XXX parody.

I got Kalicki to post, suck on that *****es!

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Egret and Swallow is going to be the XXX parody.

They're not so coy these days. It's usually a "This is not ... ... :A XXX Parody"

 

[E]

They don't need an equivalent to MAX.

Just look at Wonder Woman.

It's so good....

I don't know what that means.

I think the advantage DC has over Marvel is the inherent scope of each of their core franchises, and I think for the most part, this relaunch has done a good job of highlighting their individual strengths.

I guess that's the difference - I wish they did do that and I'm just not seeing it. That's not to say that there aren't good books, because there are. But I don't think they are representing genres as well as they could be. Maybe that's different from representing the strengths of the characters but I don't think it should be.

 

[Jaggyd]

I read WONDER WOMAN #2 and found it rather aggravating.

Zombipanda — your whole shebang about how "Superman is a great weird science action hero, Wonder Woman is paganism vs modern world", this are very intelligent critiques of these properties, and somewhat insightful but, the problem I have with them is the same problem I have with Grant Morrison's similar approach which is to take an outside metaphor, then apply it wholesale to these characters and turn them into a symbol-system. Here's the problem and why I found WONDER WOMAN to be so annoying: the idea of telling a story about paganism intruding on the modern world is a fine one, and is one of substance.

But Wonder Woman wears a metal bikini and has a lasso of truth and can fly and has an invisible jet.

This is writing from the outside-in. It's looking at these characters, trying to find an external system of thought or ideology or meaning and then applying it to the characters in order to legitimize them and give them substance, instead of writing inside-out, finding out about these characters and their world, and then developing stories from them. In the case of WONDER WOMAN, I just find it annoying that we have this dark, incestuous, vicious world of rape and death and supernatural occultism (taken from Greek Myth) and yet the protagonist is called Wonder Woman, has bright shiny jewellry and a golden lasso.

I can't enjoy the bizarre contrast.

Honestly, the problem lies with the fans. Any time you try to change Diana from the Star Spangled Swimsuit look, people scream and piss and moan. Then everything goes back to the status quo. I hate to admit, the best thing to come out of Heinburg's run on WW was Terry Dodson's design for Donna's Wonder Woman costume. It was very Greek warrior in design, with nods to the traditional "Wonder Woman" design.

With that said, I'm enjoying the new run, I just ignore that for some reason that even with the colors changed, she's still wearing American iconography.

 

[Friday]

I've been picking up more issues...

I broke and got Wonder Woman #1 and 2. This is the best thing i've read from Azzarello that isn't 100 Bullets. I LOVE me some Greek Mythology so seeing it handled an unsanitized form makes me very happy. It got to me enough that I started work on a project i've had boiling in the back of my mind for years now...

I finally found Animal Man #1 (Third shops a charm) and its good. Once again i'm going to treat this as a true reboot and not try to force any of the old animal man stories into it. Having said that I love Maxine being more in tune with the Red and Buddy using her as a guide to find his way. And I know its a bit obvious but I can't wait to see his reaction when she sides with The Other at some point. Its like the rough ideas from Blackest Night and Brightest day are actually going to be used for something that doesn't suck. Having finally read this has me really looking forward to the upcoming Swamp Thing crossover.

I also got Nightwing 1 and 2, mainly on how much i've been digging Scott Snyder Batman and how they're supposed to be... related. Higgins enjoyment in writing Dick really shows through. I don't know if i'll keep up with it, but I liked it enough.

And in an unrelated note the shop I found all these in had Casanova V1 in Hardcover from the Image release. I had kinda given up hope of ever finding that.