Miracleman (Marvel)

Sucked, doesn't mean they shouldn't have done it. The original still stands just fine. If you don't like it just don't read it.

So you're saying even though sequels to phenomenal original works almost always suck, they should still do them. Why, exactly?

Also, while the original is still the original and stands on it's own, Before Watchmen has cheapened the brand, and was a blatant and ridiculous cash grab.

Because they went stupid and put the character on an untouchable pedestal.

No, because they went stupid. Simple as that. I may have put Miracleman on a pedestal in my mind, and rightly so, but I'm not going to make death threats over it, because I'm not insane. I hated Ultimates 3, but I didn't put a contract out on Loeb.

Seriously, your claim is ridiculous. You're lumping in a respect and appreciation for a character/series, and a desire to see the quality level retained as much as possible, with nutjobs making death threats. It's a summarily ridiculous and completely false comparison.

Again, I really think you don't know what you're talking about here. You've only read the first ten issues of Miracleman, by your own admission. You haven't read the conclusion of Moore's run, or any of Gaiman's run. I think it's safe to say you really don't appreciate the series for what it is if you honestly think having writers like Bendis and Loeb on the title would result in a good thing. At the very least you're saying "let's just see what happens", which is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words.

Let Bendis do what he's good at. I like his USM work. Let Loeb do what he's good at: random mini-series with a subtitle of a color.

Keep them away from Miracleman. They're not suited for the character/book. You can misinterpret that any way you want, or accuse me of putting him on a pedestal. I call it recognizing a writer's strengths and weaknesses, and their suitability for a particular title.
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

So you're saying even though sequels to phenomenal original works almost always suck, they should still do them. Why, exactly?

Also, while the original is still the original and stands on it's own, Before Watchmen has cheapened the brand, and was a blatant and ridiculous cash grab.

Yeah, it was. Still should be allowed to happen.

No, because they went stupid. Simple as that. I may have put Miracleman on a pedestal in my mind, and rightly so, but I'm not going to make death threats over it, because I'm not insane. I hated Ultimates 3, but I didn't put a contract out on Loeb.

As I said, they went stupid.

Again, I really think you don't know what you're talking about here. You've only read the first ten issues of Miracleman, by your own admission. You haven't read the conclusion of Moore's run, or any of Gaiman's run. I think it's safe to say you really don't appreciate the series for what it is if you honestly think having writers like Bendis and Loeb on the title would result in a good thing. At the very least you're saying "let's just see what happens", which is so ridiculous I can't even put it into words.

Let Bendis do what he's good at. I like his USM work. Let Loeb do what he's good at: random mini-series with a subtitle of a color.

Keep them away from Miracleman. They're not suited for the character/book. You can misinterpret that any way you want, or accuse me of putting him on a pedestal. I call it recognizing a writer's strengths and weaknesses, and their suitability for a particular title.

Again, I'm saying I don't CARE about how good it gets. ANYONE should be allowed to write the book.
 
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Yeah, it was. Still should be allowed to happen. As I said, they went stupid.

But understand most fans, including those who place books or characters "on a pedestal", aren't that way. So your assertion that that's what leads to death threats is only true for a small percentage of nutjobs anyway. Not the majority.

Again, I'm saying I don't CARE about how good it gets. ANYONE should be allowed to write the book.

People qualify for jobs based on their qualifications and abilities. Not every writer can pull off certain characters and series. That's reality. You're calling for a complete dumbing down and downturn of quality by letting all those writers take a shot. Luckily, I think Marvel is smart enough not to alienate the Miracleman fanbase and do such a thing (thank God). Least I hope so.

Honestly I can't wait to see E weigh in on this. His response should be interesting, to say the least.
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

People qualify for jobs based on their qualifications and abilities. Not every writer can pull off certain characters and series. That's reality. You're calling for a complete dumbing down and downturn of quality by letting all those writers take a shot. Luckily, I think Marvel is smart enough not to alienate the Miracleman fanbase and do such a thing (thank God). Least I hope so.

Honestly I can't wait to see E weigh in on this. His response should be interesting, to say the least.

I'm calling for the allowance of a downturn in quality. It's up to the creative teams to make it so that there isn't. Which I'm sure they would rise to occasion due to the legacy this book has. Imagine if Spider-Man never got written after Stan Lee. All of those great stories that never would have happened.
 
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I'm calling for the allowance of a downturn in quality. It's up to the creative teams to make it so that there isn't. Which I'm sure they would rise to occasion due to the legacy this book has. Imagine if Spider-Man never got written after Stan Lee. All of those great stories that never would have happened.

Again, a lame comparison. Spider-Man has never competed with Miracleman in terms of pure brilliance, most especially when good old Stan was writing it.

As for the creative teams, you're right. But it's up to editorial to choose the right teams. Bendis or Loeb don't qualify as the right writers for the book.

You're wrong. This isn't even a matter of difference of opinion. You're just categorically wrong. "I'm calling for the allowance of a downturn in quality." Are you kidding me? I can't remember ever discussing a fictional product and someone being okay, or in your case, encouraging, the book to get worse. Do you not realize how insane that is?
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

Again, a lame comparison. Spider-Man has never competed with Miracleman in terms of pure brilliance, most especially when good old Stan was writing it.

My point went completely over your head. You're restricting what could be timeless stories.

You're wrong. This isn't even a matter of difference of opinion. You're just categorically wrong. "I'm calling for the allowance of a downturn in quality." Are you kidding me? I can't remember ever discussing a fictional product and someone being okay, or in your case, encouraging, the book to get worse. Do you not realize how insane that is?

I'm not encouraging it, I'm encouraging that other writers be able to step up to the challenge and write some phenomenal stories. I'm also being a realist by knowing that not all of them will be great. So yes, it is a difference in opinion.
 
My point went completely over your head.

Reign it in there. Nothing went " completely over" my head, nor did it even in part. Giving yourself way too much credit there.

You're restricting what could be timeless stories.

WTF? I'm not restricting anything. Are you under the impression I work for Marvel's editorial team? I don't. If I did I'd have stopped a hell of a lot more of the crap stories they've put out lately.

I'm not encouraging it, I'm encouraging that other writers be able to step up to the challenge and write some phenomenal stories. I'm also being a realist by knowing that not all of them will be great. So yes, it is a difference in opinion.

Let Marvel's editorial decide. That's their job. That's how the process works.

A writer submits a treatment to them, then an actual script. If it's any good then yes, they'll get the chance to write it.

Get real.
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

WTF? I'm not restricting anything. Are you under the impression I work for Marvel's editorial team? I don't. If I did I'd have stopped a hell of a lot more of the crap stories they've put out lately.

You know I wasn't specifically talking about you doing anything. I'm done here.
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

wyokid, I like you and I like that you have different opinions on a lot of things and can discuss them intelligently, but some of the things you're saying here defy belief.

Well, I'd like to see Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Brian K Vaughn, Warren Ellis, Greg Rucka, Nick Spencer, Matt Fraction, Jason Aaron, Howard Chaykin, Kelly Sue DeConnick, Darwyn Cooke, Jeph Loeb, Brian Michael Bendis, Greg Pak, Paul Dini, Kurt Busiek, Ed Brubaker, Peter David, and Jeff Smith all take a crack at it. AKA I'd like to see my favorite writers write this.

If they did some kind of anthology similar to Apocrypha (or maybe just continued that series) then I don't think I'd have a problem with Vaughan, Cooke, Waid, or Brubaker. Apocrypha stood outside of the main continuity and the series suggested that the stories are just legends that never actually happened, suggesting that it didn't really matter.

Spencer, Aaron, Chaykin :sick:, and especially Loeb and Bendis shouldn't come anywhere near the character no matter what the story or circumstance.

I recognize the cultural and historical relevance of Miracleman, but I don't believe any character should not allowed to be written by anyone. Nor should certain stories not be allowed to happen. That kind of thinking creates that poisonous "my character" thing a lot of comic fans have.

While I do hate that attitude toward characters or books, I don't believe that's true. I see nothing wrong with suggesting a writer who has failed to write on a level of quality that this book has traditionally been written at should stay away from the book. What Bendis did with the Miracleman rip-off Sentry tells me all I need to know about his ability to write that kind of character. He can't. He ruined Sentry and I have no reason to believe he wouldn't do the same to Miracleman.

I've read all the stuff Marvel has put out.

The mythical status you referred to generally comes from the last book, issues 11-16, which Marvel has not yet reprinted.

And I'm saying I WANT Miracleman to become just like any other comic character. I want more stories by a plethora of writers that span every genre. I want spin-offs and the rest. I want more. I'm not missing anything, I'm Ignoring it. Putting characters on a pedestal like this leads to **** like people sending death threats to writers.

The poor behavior of certain fans has nothing to do with wanting to maintain the quality that a given book has established. You're trying to make connections that can't possibly be made because they have nothing to do with each other.

I'm calling for the allowance of a downturn in quality.

This is where you completely lost me. It's hard to take your arguments seriously when you say that you basically say you want a book to be bad.
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

Spencer, Aaron, Chaykin :sick:, and especially Loeb and Bendis shouldn't come anywhere near the character no matter what the story or circumstance.

From what I've read so far Aaron, Spencer, and Chaykin would thrive with Miracleman. Also what's wrong with Chaykin? American Flagg! is classic! I'm not going to argue Bendis and Loeb because I know it's a lost cause.

While I do hate that attitude toward characters or books, I don't believe that's true. I see nothing wrong with suggesting a writer who has failed to write on a level of quality that this book has traditionally been written at should stay away from the book. What Bendis did with the Miracleman rip-off Sentry tells me all I need to know about his ability to write that kind of character. He can't. He ruined Sentry and I have no reason to believe he wouldn't do the same to Miracleman.

I loved Sentry. Never read Jeff Parker's stuff (mainly because outside of Batman '66 I have yet to read something by him that I like (his Hulk run turned me off of trying anything of his)) so I can't compare ti to that, but I loved Bendis' Sentry stuff. Such a complex and interesting character.

The poor behavior of certain fans has nothing to do with wanting to maintain the quality that a given book has established. You're trying to make connections that can't possibly be made because they have nothing to do with each other.

Except they do. Gerry Conway got death threats over killing Gwen and to those readers that was a downturn in quality. Whether the book actually got worse didn't matter, to them it did.

This is where you completely lost me. It's hard to take your arguments seriously when you say that you basically say you want a book to be bad.

It's as I said:

I'm encouraging that other writers be able to step up to the challenge and write some phenomenal stories. I'm also being a realist by knowing that not all of them will be great.

By allowing more writers you are allowing more stories. You are allowing good stories to be made and you are allowing bad stories to be made. No one sets out to make a bad story (at least I hope they wouldn't), it just happens. I'm just talking realistically which I know a lot of people don't care for.
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

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Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

If they did some kind of anthology similar to Apocrypha (or maybe just continued that series) then I don't think I'd have a problem with Vaughan, Cooke, Waid, or Brubaker. Apocrypha stood outside of the main continuity and the series suggested that the stories are just legends that never actually happened, suggesting that it didn't really matter.

Actually, Apocrypha is canon (at least the framing sequences). It's just presented as a bunch of tales based on Miracleman in his own world, that he reads in the library. So the stories within aren't canon, but just presented as stories written about Miracleman and the other characters within that world.

But yeah, the framing sequences are canon.


Except they do. Gerry Conway got death threats over killing Gwen and to those readers that was a downturn in quality. Whether the book actually got worse didn't matter, to them it did.

That's a huge flaw in your plan then. You're advocating less talented writers should be given the shot to write Miracleman, which inevitably will lead to crappy stories. It'll also inevitably lead to fan outcry against those writers, and possibly those extreme whackos making death threats against those writers. So, your idea would essentially encourage those rare death threats. Think about it.


By allowing more writers you are allowing more stories. You are allowing good stories to be made and you are allowing bad stories to be made. No one sets out to make a bad story (at least I hope they wouldn't), it just happens. I'm just talking realistically which I know a lot of people don't care for.

You're essentially advocating for quantity over quality, with the hope that at least some of those stories will be good (which some may be). But you're completely overlooking the fact that those many theoretical bad stories will ruin the Miracleman brand. It's currently viewed (and has been since Moore rebooted it in the early 1980's) as one of the best comic series ever.

Now, if they did a bunch of mediocre and terrible stories, the originals would still be good, that's true. But the IP and brand would be tarnished forever. And for what?

You're talking realistically for most comics, yes, but not Miracleman. As I said to you previously, Miracleman isn't Batman, Superman, or Spider-Man. He was never meant to be turned into a huge franchise character like those big names. He wasn't meant to appear in multiple titles every month like Batman. His is a finite story with a beginning, a middle, and an end.

All you're doing is advocating a bunch of what will amount to as worthless filler material. As someone who has admittedly read only the first ten issues, do you think it's unfair to say you may not "get" what the character and book is? What it means?

I never would've assumed that previously, but after the statements you've made the last few days on this issue I have to wonder how in your mind any of what you've said is a good idea.

Quality is what should come first, especially for Miracleman, since his books have always had an extremely high quality. To just start pumping out stories willy-nilly by writers who have no business or ability to maintain that high level of quality is simply insane.

If you ran a business that had made reliably well crafted products, then decided to just say, "screw it" and start pumping out crap, your customers are going to turn their backs on you and your reputation as a business would be ruined. Seriously, think about what you're saying.

I get that you think it may result in some good stories, and I agree, it probably would. But I'm quite sure it's not worth ruining the character and brand by putting out a bunch of terrible stories only to occasionally release a good one. That's a horrible approach.

If a writer has what they think is a good idea for a Miracleman story, they submit it to Marvel editorial. Like E said, an anthology book might work for the character in that sense.

But Bendis or Loeb? I really don't see them bringing anything worthwhile to the character.
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

From what I've read so far Aaron, Spencer, and Chaykin would thrive with Miracleman. Also what's wrong with Chaykin? American Flagg! is classic! I'm not going to argue Bendis and Loeb because I know it's a lost cause.

Nothing Chaykin has done is classic. He's notable only for writing **** (Black Kiss).

I loved Sentry. Never read Jeff Parker's stuff (mainly because outside of Batman '66 I have yet to read something by him that I like (his Hulk run turned me off of trying anything of his)) so I can't compare ti to that, but I loved Bendis' Sentry stuff. Such a complex and interesting character.

Bendis destroyed the character after Jenkins ruined him as best he could. The first Sentry series (10 issues - a 5 issue mini and 5 one shots) was excellent, and Bendis sucked all of the mystique and intrigue out of the character and used him completely wrong. The Void was the most interesting aspect about Sentry and the more Sentry used his powers the more powerful Void became. Bendis completely ignored that. He turned into a worthless Superman wannabe.

Except they do. Gerry Conway got death threats over killing Gwen and to those readers that was a downturn in quality. Whether the book actually got worse didn't matter, to them it did.

But...so what? Because Gerry Conway got death threats we shouldn't ever care about maintaining the quality on a book? What you're saying is pure sensationalism and is not the least bit rational.

By allowing more writers you are allowing more stories. You are allowing good stories to be made and you are allowing bad stories to be made. No one sets out to make a bad story (at least I hope they wouldn't), it just happens. I'm just talking realistically which I know a lot of people don't care for.

:lol: It doesn't "just happen". It's a conscious effort done to milk profit. Before Watchmen was a perfect example of this. Did they write those stories because they had a bunch of great ideas and couldn't wait to tell them? Of course not!
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

Nothing Chaykin has done is classic. He's notable only for writing **** (Black Kiss).

American Flagg! #1-12

Bendis destroyed the character after Jenkins ruined him as best he could. The first Sentry series (10 issues - a 5 issue mini and 5 one shots) was excellent, and Bendis sucked all of the mystique and intrigue out of the character and used him completely wrong. The Void was the most interesting aspect about Sentry and the more Sentry used his powers the more powerful Void became. Bendis completely ignored that. He turned into a worthless Superman wannabe.

No he didn't. The Void was featured heavily in Dark Avengers, Siege, and discussed throughout.

But...so what? Because Gerry Conway got death threats we shouldn't ever care about maintaining the quality on a book? What you're saying is pure sensationalism and is not the least bit rational.

Where am I saying we shouldn't care about maintaining the quality? I didn't. I said it's up to the creators to make good books. The quality will maintain as long as they do that.

:lol: It doesn't "just happen". It's a conscious effort done to milk profit. Before Watchmen was a perfect example of this. Did they write those stories because they had a bunch of great ideas and couldn't wait to tell them? Of course not!

And Before Watchmen could have been great with better stories. The writers and editorial (there's no way that didn't have massive editorial influence) failed their job.
 
American Flagg! #1-12

I never really got the appeal of American Flagg. I tried reading the first few issues and was just turned off by it. There is a lot of logical inconsistency to it (sports are illegal, for some reason, the huge jump in technology--somehow they managed to colonize Mars in 1996, only 13 years in the future of when the title originally came out, etc). I mean, I guess if you just overlook that stuff it could be good. Just wasn't my cup of tea.

But on topic, how did America Flagg make you think Chaykin would be a good fit for Miracleman? They're two extremely different books. Completely different tones, style, characters, themes, etc. I'm at a loss as to how you think American Flagg is a reasonable example of why Chaykin should write Miracleman.

No he didn't. The Void was featured heavily in Dark Avengers, Siege, and discussed throughout.

I never read those books, so can't say for sure, but I think what E is saying is that Bendis ruined the mystique and interesting aspects of Sentry/Void, not that Void wasn't used. Again, a quality and content thing.

Where am I saying we shouldn't care about maintaining the quality? I didn't. I said it's up to the creators to make good books. The quality will maintain as long as they do that.

You kind of said exactly that here:

And I'm saying I WANT Miracleman to become just like any other comic character. I want more stories by a plethora of writers that span every genre. I want spin-offs and the rest. I want more. I'm not missing anything, I'm Ignoring it. Putting characters on a pedestal like this leads to **** like people sending death threats to writers.

You're essentially saying take the exact same approach to Miracleman as most other characters out there. Pump out a bunch of stuff, hoping some will be good, and the stuff that's bad, oh well.

You seem to be very set in your outlook of the comic industry. We've had this discussion regarding Valiant's approach as well. You don't like that they cycle through their books to try out other titles, and to allow writers and artists a chance to complete upcoming arcs to prevent delays, all to maintain a printing of only around 8-10 new books per month. I understand your point in that regard, since it can be a pain to wait 2-3 months between arcs on titles like Rai, but I like that Valiant is trying a new approach, specifically different from what the big publishers do (pump out dozens of titles per month, some of which are good, a lot of which aren't).

And that's the case here: it's not about quantity, it's about quality. It's not about pumping out 3-4 dozen books per month and hoping a handful of them will be good, or putting out a bunch of spin-offs and hoping some will be good. It's about putting out one book a month (in Miracleman's case) and knowing it'll be more than good... it'll be great.

I don't see the logic in your argument. If you're looking for that approach, it's already being done ad nauseam by the big publishers already. Why are you opposed to Marvel trying something new?

And Before Watchmen could have been great with better stories. The writers and editorial (there's no way that didn't have massive editorial influence) failed their job.

They failed their job because Before Watchmen was unnecessary. The original story had a beginning, middle, and end. It was a complete story. Before Watchmen was a simple cash grab capitalizing on the name of the original. Completely unnecessary, and it showed in the final product. Now you can argue all day and night that it could've resulted in good stories... but it didn't. And even if it had, it still would've been a tacked-on, unnecessary, and blatantly obvious cash grab. Now I'm not opposed to companies making money... I mean, that is the whole point. I am opposed to companies crapping all over seminal and and classic works to make money. Use original ideas, don't rip off existing ones (especially revered and beloved ones) in some lame attempt to stand next to the original. The results are likely to always end in dismal failure.

Should they start writing sequels to Shakespearean plays? Does "A Christmas Carol" need a sequel or a prequel? Do you see where I'm going with this?
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

American Flagg! #1-12

I'm talking general consensus here, but I've never seen that book mentioned in any "classics" list or conversation.

No he didn't. The Void was featured heavily in Dark Avengers, Siege, and discussed throughout.

What DiB said - I didn't say he didn't use the Void. I said he ignored the unique framework for the character and changed what he meant to Sentry in what I believe to be a very negative way.

Where am I saying we shouldn't care about maintaining the quality? I didn't. I said it's up to the creators to make good books. The quality will maintain as long as they do that.

Did you use those exact words? No, but it's the gist of what you're saying. How is that different from advocating the dumbing down of a book and lowering its quality?

And Before Watchmen could have been great with better stories. The writers and editorial (there's no way that didn't have massive editorial influence) failed their job.

Are you sure it didn't "just happen"?
 
Re: Marvel to Publish Miracleman!

I'm talking general consensus here, but I've never seen that book mentioned in any "classics" list or conversation.

I see it called classic all the time. Chaykin's run alone was an influence to several writers including Warren Ellis.

Did you use those exact words? No, but it's the gist of what you're saying. How is that different from advocating the dumbing down of a book and lowering its quality?

That's what taking risks is all about.

Are you sure it didn't "just happen"?

And if it "just happens" with Miracleman at least they took the risk.
 
I see it called classic all the time. Chaykin's run alone was an influence to several writers including Warren Ellis.

Yeah, a lot of people consider the first twelve issues of American Flagg to be a good run. Wasn't my thing, personally, but I can understand why people like it.

That's what taking risks is all about. And if it "just happens" with Miracleman at least they took the risk.

Taking risks isn't "all about" dumbing things down. Miracleman itself, in it's rebooted form by Moore, was a risk. There's taking worthwhile risks, and then there are completely stupid and pointless risks. Miracleman as it is was a worthwhile risk 30 years back when it first started. Dumbing it down, and having a bunch of writers whose style don't fit the character or book is a perfect example of a completely stupid and pointless risk.
 

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