Darth Series Discussion: Ultimatum

To add to the "Why people buy this rubbish" debate...

At Heroes Con, in the Westin bar after one of the days (Friday, I believe), talking to Mark Bagely. At the table was Ian Sattler. Bagely left at one point leaving myself, Ice, and Sattler at the table.

Ian Sattler is the senior story editor for DC comics.

Before I get into this, a couple of things: Sattler was a gentleman, polite, patient, and willing to spend valuable relaxation time in a bar talking to a ranting fanboy about the industry. At no point did he talk down to me, or treat me like a simpleton. The man is a professional and has been working for two years in a high ranking job at DC comics.

To give you an example, I put forward to him my idea of doing Superman like seasons. You do twelve issues of Superman in twelve weeks. Then he's not on the stands until the same time a year later. He said it wouldn't work at all. I asked why. It works for TV, after all. He quite properly pointed out that everyone has a TV. If your favourite show is off for 6 months, you'll still watch the same channel because it's right there. This is not true for Superman, since if he's not in the store, there's no guarantee that the comics buyer will buy another DC comic, nor return once Superman hits the shelves again. This approach could be doable for limited series, but not for ongoing series. Which is something I hadn't considered.

So, Mr Sattler was lucid, and patient. I gave him opportunities to leave or change the subject, fearing I was annoying or boring him, and he wouldn't. Good guy.

But, after ruminating on our discussion, I came to a little conclusion. I'll explain it now.

I asked him, plainly, if he enjoyed having to deal with the big events of the DCU. Did he enjoy having all these ridiculous crossovers and crises. He said yes. He said he loved them. He said "Event-fatigue" (wherein the comics audience is tired of events) doesn't exist because it sells so well, and because the pre-order sales system works well. I explained that I didn't read them because I didn't like them. He told me that I couldn't judge if I didn't read them. I told him I 'dip in and out' and explained I disliked that to read one comic I had to read a dozen others to 'get it'. I don't watch a TV show and not 'get it' because I didn't watch two other shows that aired before it. We kinda agreed on this point.

But... I realised something. The problem isn't the guys in the editing chairs are stupid, or that they hate the fans, or any of that preposterous nonsense. It's that they don't want or don't know how to get new readers.

Think about it. I went up to the senior story editor at DC during the after hours of a convention and explained that I don't read their biggest titles. And his response is, "I'm not qualified to judge them". He didn't try to work out WHY I dislike the comics and pick them up, he wasn't interested in my plights, nor was he trying to encourage me to pick up any of them.

Why not?

My 'seasonal hiatus' idea might not be a good one. But the reason no one even wants to try it is because of the fear that the reader fanbase is one step away from disappearing. Doesn't matter if my idea is stupid or not, the reason is because unless the industry continually pushes out comics, people will leave forever.

Which is weird, because that's how comics are released in Japan. (Should've asked him that.)

I don't just blame the big wigs. I blame the *******ed stupid fanboys who go to a panel and ask if they're going to get another Spidey vs Green Goblin fight in the current Dark Reign event.

There is a small, vocal minority of people who ***** and complain about every change but buy only the crap nonsense that's put out.

What the hell is someone like Mr Sattler supposed to do? Of course he won't pay much attention to a fan he meets who's trying to understand the situations because it will sound, to him, like any number of fanboys on the internet screaming "Event-fatigue". It's a white noise. He can't tell the difference, and why the hell should he? We can rant and scream about Ultimatum, but how many of you are actually picking the ****ing thing up? And how many of you went into your comic store and asked, "Can you hook me up with something not produced by Marvel, nor DC, and isn't superhero related?"

Are the only TV show you watch cop dramas? Are the only movies you see romantic comedies? That diversity exists in comics.

I went to Shelton Drum's comic shop "Heroes Aren't Hard to Find". Shelton Drum is the guy who runs Heroes Con. I went in there and asked the clerk for a recommendation. I pointed at the wall which is 'non-superhero' and the segment that is 'non-manga'. That's WESTERN NON-SUPERHERO comics. And he immediately took me there, and showed me a comic by Chris Ware and sold the hell out of it. Then he got me to pick up THE UMBRELLA ACADEMY. It pissed me off that I have a flight to get on, as opposed to just driving home, because I just couldn't pick up any more stuff. I'd be weighed down.

I look forward to reading them.

Why does ULTIMATUM exist and why is there going to be more and more of them?

Because the big wigs don't know how to sell their product.

And because we don't know how to buy it.
 
Bass said:
/snip rant
Because the big wigs don't know how to sell their product.

And because we don't know how to buy it.
Click to expand...

I agree on this matter, that not only do they not realize how to hook in new people, but also they don't promote new ideas.

Which is true in the big two, but Image and Dark Horse seem to provide new ideas and new comics.

But what I have to ask, which I did in Charlotte but it was when we got our food, so I think we didn't continue in favor of stuffing our faces, but I mentioned how in the early 2000's, there was a lot of new ideas out there that hooked new readers. What has changed since then that's not working now?

And another thing, if they do have new ideas, how can they promote them better?
 
I generally agree with Bass. But you can't really blame marvel or DC for not promoting non superhero comics. That's there focus, it's no secret. People see their names and think "superheroes" that's the product they produce. I mean that's kind of like complaining that Hershey do not make organically grown snack instead of just chocolates. Sure both are food items that are generally consumed between meals, but it's just not the focus the company chooses. So you can't exactly expect them to pour their resources into something that's not guarantee to work.

But it would be a smart idea have a few slots for new comic series premiere each year that has a very intriguing and new concept that stands alone. Basically something that gives a good or new writer something to play with. Then give it a good amount of marketing. If it does succeed have it continue. If it doesn't oh well, lets see what new cool idea we can get to replace it next year. I think that's a good stepping stone for Marvel/DC to get their feet wet into different territories.

I would also like them to do something similar with within the superhero genre. Give a few writers free reign to come up with new superheroes, that are apart of the continuity but separate enough to tell more unique stories and having them rarely interact with the major titles. So basically be free from all the crossovers. Just give them a change to try something new.

But you are totally right about Ultimatum.

STOP BUYING THIS CRAP!!!!
 
Bass said:
To add to the "Why people buy this rubbish" debate...

At Heroes Con, in the Westin bar after one of the days (Friday, I believe), talking to Mark Bagely. At the table was Ian Sattler. Bagely left at one point leaving myself, Ice, and Sattler at the table.

Ian Sattler is the senior story editor for DC comics.

Before I get into this, a couple of things: Sattler was a gentleman, polite, patient, and willing to spend valuable relaxation time in a bar talking to a ranting fanboy about the industry. At no point did he talk down to me, or treat me like a simpleton. The man is a professional and has been working for two years in a high ranking job at DC comics.

To give you an example, I put forward to him my idea of doing Superman like seasons. You do twelve issues of Superman in twelve weeks. Then he's not on the stands until the same time a year later. He said it wouldn't work at all. I asked why. It works for TV, after all. He quite properly pointed out that everyone has a TV. If your favourite show is off for 6 months, you'll still watch the same channel because it's right there. This is not true for Superman, since if he's not in the store, there's no guarantee that the comics buyer will buy another DC comic, nor return once Superman hits the shelves again. This approach could be doable for limited series, but not for ongoing series. Which is something I hadn't considered.

So, Mr Sattler was lucid, and patient. I gave him opportunities to leave or change the subject, fearing I was annoying or boring him, and he wouldn't. Good guy.

But, after ruminating on our discussion, I came to a little conclusion. I'll explain it now.

I asked him, plainly, if he enjoyed having to deal with the big events of the DCU. Did he enjoy having all these ridiculous crossovers and crises. He said yes. He said he loved them. He said "Event-fatigue" (wherein the comics audience is tired of events) doesn't exist because it sells so well, and because the pre-order sales system works well. I explained that I didn't read them because I didn't like them. He told me that I couldn't judge if I didn't read them. I told him I 'dip in and out' and explained I disliked that to read one comic I had to read a dozen others to 'get it'. I don't watch a TV show and not 'get it' because I didn't watch two other shows that aired before it. We kinda agreed on this point.

But... I realised something. The problem isn't the guys in the editing chairs are stupid, or that they hate the fans, or any of that preposterous nonsense. It's that they don't want or don't know how to get new readers.

Think about it. I went up to the senior story editor at DC during the after hours of a convention and explained that I don't read their biggest titles. And his response is, "I'm not qualified to judge them". He didn't try to work out WHY I dislike the comics and pick them up, he wasn't interested in my plights, nor was he trying to encourage me to pick up any of them.

Why not?

My 'seasonal hiatus' idea might not be a good one. But the reason no one even wants to try it is because of the fear that the reader fanbase is one step away from disappearing. Doesn't matter if my idea is stupid or not, the reason is because unless the industry continually pushes out comics, people will leave forever.

Which is weird, because that's how comics are released in Japan. (Should've asked him that.)

I don't just blame the big wigs. I blame the *******ed stupid fanboys who go to a panel and ask if they're going to get another Spidey vs Green Goblin fight in the current Dark Reign event.

There is a small, vocal minority of people who ***** and complain about every change but buy only the crap nonsense that's put out.

What the hell is someone like Mr Sattler supposed to do? Of course he won't pay much attention to a fan he meets who's trying to understand the situations because it will sound, to him, like any number of fanboys on the internet screaming "Event-fatigue". It's a white noise. He can't tell the difference, and why the hell should he? We can rant and scream about Ultimatum, but how many of you are actually picking the ****ing thing up? And how many of you went into your comic store and asked, "Can you hook me up with something not produced by Marvel, nor DC, and isn't superhero related?"

Are the only TV show you watch cop dramas? Are the only movies you see romantic comedies? That diversity exists in comics.

I went to Shelton Drum's comic shop "Heroes Aren't Hard to Find". Shelton Drum is the guy who runs Heroes Con. I went in there and asked the clerk for a recommendation. I pointed at the wall which is 'non-superhero' and the segment that is 'non-manga'. That's WESTERN NON-SUPERHERO comics. And he immediately took me there, and showed me a comic by Chris Ware and sold the hell out of it. Then he got me to pick up THE UMBRELLA ACADEMY. It pissed me off that I have a flight to get on, as opposed to just driving home, because I just couldn't pick up any more stuff. I'd be weighed down.

I look forward to reading them.

Why does ULTIMATUM exist and why is there going to be more and more of them?

Because the big wigs don't know how to sell their product.

And because we don't know how to buy it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's true, but that's ultimately irrelevant. Comics are a dated medium, print is dying, mags are losing money and even newspapers that have existed over a century are in danger of folding, the only print that is likely to survive is books.

Really now comics have become inaccessible to new people decades, I mean how many comics are aimed at kids and not fanboys nowadays? I liked 52, but I'm not sure I would let a kid read it. Focusing on fanboys and ignoring kids is a great way to ensure that business doesn't grow. Give me a silly Silver age story over some mindless gore fest like Ultimatum.

Anyway the comic book medium is a dead end, but the character concepts themselves are still very profitable, just in other media. Kids like super heroes, they just don't like the comic books. You can make far more money with movies, TV shows, cartoons, video games and general merchandising with these characters then you could with comics. I don't blame people for not liking comics, there are so elements in comics that would turn off a lot of people. Why bother reading a confusing Iron man comic based around a convoluted continuity when they can watch the movie, why should kids read a Spider-Man comic that is based on a confusing continuity, when they can a watch a Spidey cartoon?

Things change and well the concepts created by comics may be profgitable, the comics themselves are not.
 
Ultimate Houde said:
I agree on this matter, that not only do they not realize how to hook in new people, but also they don't promote new ideas.

Which is true in the big two, but Image and Dark Horse seem to provide new ideas and new comics.
Click to expand...

An interesting point seeing as how a large number of Marvel's writers (and probably DC's too) get their notable starts with Image and Dark Horse. Not the other way around.
 
Of course, the original, commercially-driven point of the Ultimate Universe was to get rid of all the confusing continuity and so hook in new readers to buying comics that still featured Marvel's big iconic characters (as seen on TV/the movies). That was screwed when a changing cast of writers (especially on UXM) piled in as much confusing and contradictory backstory from the 616 uni as quickly as possible.

I wonder if too, from a purely commercially-driven point of view, that idea fell apart when writers started being too creative and deviating too far from the accepted idea of what a character is? Just a thought. Good imaginative writing actually seen as being bad for business.

Superheroes are the bread and butter of the American comic industry. Fact. In times of recession, not only are Marvel and DC less likely than ever to diversify into other genres or risk new ideas, they're barely even going to introduce new characters within the limited range they're already working in. It's all about the franchise. It's about the brand- the Spidey brand, the X Men brand and so on. Diversify into movies, video games, pillow cases, t-shirts by all means, but maintain brand identity at all costs.

In a sense, the comics only exist to maintain the brand. Keep it ticking over. Keep the illusion of exciting change, big summer blockbuster events, but don't really harm the essential status quo. Kill off Captain America- brilliant, marketing genius, get headlines in the non-comics press, even. But bring him back a couple of years later, another big event story, status quo restored in time for the blockbuster movie to come. Works for Batman, too.

So yeah, what Bass said, but if the comics industry is (justifiably) running scared they're not going to risk rocking the boat with new ideas. They're just going to look for new ways to keep selling the big iconic brands. Also, lots of comics sell now to people in their 30s and 40s rather than kids and there's an element of nostalgia too- they want to see what ole Spidey is up to these days, they don't really want to explore comics as a medium to the extent of trying something completely new.

I'm guilty of that to an extent, but on the other hand my two favourite ongoings at the moment are both non-superhero books- League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (if you can call that ongoing, and indeed, if you can call it non-superhero), and the absolutely brilliant Phonogram: Singles Club, though that has a minority appeal from the start depending on how much the idea of a comic about a group of magically inclined characters dancing to obscure English alt-pop (pop, not rock) in a Bristol nightclub appeals to you. But it is great, honest.

Oh yeah, and Warren Ellis's Freakangels online.
 
it is so redundant

it should be merged with the other thread, it's not like we're talking about how great Ultimatum is in the other one

You just support it cause you're a Bass-Licker
 
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