Darth Series Discussion: Ultimatum

[ProjectX2]

It is a sad world when Ultimatum is readily available and Miracleman, Zenith and Flex Mentallo are not.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Apparently any comic with violence is.

Apparently

 

[Bass]

Wait, so any story involving a good hero gone bad is ripping off Miracleman?

Apparently any comic with violence is.

Damn straight!

Okay, more serious answer - 'ripping it off' is too harsh. But let's say I wanted to do a cool, super vast war between the worlds of Elves, Men, and some cave monster men, I call them Kors! Right. Even if I'm not doing what Tolkein did, the truth is, my work is in the very same genre as Tolkein's LotR. I may do many things to make my story unique, and I may draw inspiration from stories that predate LotR, but the two entities are in the same spectrum and comparisons are inevitable. Unless I actively understand how LotR works, my ability to be unique will be even more difficult as I won't know enough about LotR to differentiate myself.

In the cases of Superboy Prime and Ultimatum and Irredeemable, while it's not a direct ripping off, the thematic elements of the stories are very much in the vein of MIRACLEMAN. And since MIRACLEMAN is pretty much the originator of this type of story - the other being SQUADRON SUPREME - the comparison between the two is even more obvious.

Superboy Prime, in particular, is a very, very poor attempt at Kid Miracleman.

How dare you put Johns in the same group as Loeb and Bendis.

I have tried many Johns issues. I can not recall reading a single one that I thought was good.

I think, strangely enough, his FLASH run I've not read. Maybe I should?

My own Alan Moore reference for "Ultimatum as superhero snuff movie" was his take on Captain Britain, actually: specifically, when The Fury was first introduced and we saw him, in flashback, killing off all these superficially disguised versions of British superhero characters from the 1960s.

The Fury was absolutely terrifying. And it made it worse because these characters were really from strips designed for children; they had this innocent faith that things would work out, their adventures and battles had never been dark or gory, they always won. And suddenly they were being slaughtered. And they saw each other die, and Moore showed their disbelief and despair and grief. It was gut-wrenching. None of the characters in Ultimatum seem to be feeling anything beyond a clenched-teeth "lets get this guy."

Grant Morrison did something very similar to Moore in his Zenith strip for 2000AD, bringing together and then killing off a multiverse of Brit comic characters from days gone by.

But yes, I agree with Bass in that 'Miracleman' refined the concept of the dark, adult, realistic superhero to the point where you almost couldn't go any further down that road. Watchmen may have been technically cleverer, but Miracleman is the stronger strip on a mythic level, IMO.

It's almost as though its non-availability were a conspiracy to stop it showing up our current top comic creators as the charlatans they are...

(By the way, sorry for my reference points being a) British, b) from the 80s and c) often out of print. I can only apologise and admit that I am a) British, b) 38, and c) I have a lot of old comics and not many new ones. I basically missed the 90s completely, but on my return to the field as an adult, this broad obsession with superhero death was one thing I really noticed. So I'm not an expert, and it's not in everything, but it does seem to be there).

I agree with you except with the idea that you couldn't go further down the road with the subject matter seen in MIRACLEMAN. I believe that it is possible to go further - if you're really very good indeed. I, personally, wouldn't know where to begin. But if you asked Alan Moore, I'm sure he'd tell you what a 'better' version of that story might be.

But terrific references all. In fact, ULTIMATUM actually validates THE TRANSFORMERS: THE MOVIE (from 1986). The first twenty minutes of that movie is carnage, where all your favourite toys are killed off and replaced with new toys for you to buy. You cannot get more shallow than that. Orson Welles exclaimed this when asked about the movie, "It's about toys doing horrible things to one another" he said. And yet... those first twenty minutes, while not particularly golden, are actually well-written for the most part. The deaths are treated well, in that they have meaning. The lines are great, the pace and structure flows and builds, increasing in spectacle until it goes for a smaller, more emotionally intense duel, while juggling a vast number of characters. And it works. For a 6-year old, it's harrowing and will be remembered for the rest of your life. For a 30-year old who's never seen Transformers, they won't get all the individual characters and it'll just be "pretty cool, but the music is pure cheese, and why did Megatron have a lightsaber anyway?" But they'll never go, "That's just disgusting".

It wasn't gratuitous.

It is a sad world when Ultimatum is readily available and Miracleman, Zenith and Flex Mentallo are not.

Agreed.

 

[The Overlord]

Ok speaking of death, what is the worst death that has happened in this crossover so far?

I would have to say Wasp's, Spidey death is a text book example of an anti climax, but at least he could come back. Not only did Wasp's actual death occur off panel, it so was vile and disrespectful that it was beyond the pale. Wasp may not have been the best character ever, but she deserved better then that. Even 616 Wasp's recent death was handled better then that, even though it wasn't good, it wasn't offensive either.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Ok speaking of death, what is the worst death that has happened in this crossover so far?

I would have to say Wasp's, Spidey death is a text book example of an anti climax, but at least he could come back. Not only did Wasp's actual death occur off panel, it so was vile and disrespectful that it was beyond the pale. Wasp may not have been the best character ever, but she deserved better then that. Even 616 Wasp's recent death was handled better then that, even though it wasn't good, it wasn't offensive either.

They've all been terrible. Wasp, Hank, Strange, Angel. . . none of them have had much development and their deaths are just wasteful and disgusting.

 

[thee great one]

I have tried many Johns issues. I can not recall reading a single one that I thought was good.

I think, strangely enough, his FLASH run I've not read. Maybe I should?

I have not read his Flash yet.

I think Green Lantern is his best work.

I really liked his Action Comics, Justice Society Of America, and Teen Titans run.

 

[E]

I have tried many Johns issues. I can not recall reading a single one that I thought was good.

This is just wrong. His Green Lantern is phenomenal and Justice Society is also very good.

 

[Gemini]

I think the real question is

HOW DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOW TERRIBLE ULTIMATUM IS?

 

[Joe Kalicki]

I think the real question is

HOW DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOW TERRIBLE ULTIMATUM IS?

It's so terrible it's making us talk about other comics just to stay sane.

 

[The Overlord]

Ok, here's a question, is there anyway Ultimatum could have been worse?

 

[Gemini]

it could be drawn by a worse artist

I mean Finch can be pretty bad, but imagine if it was Liefeld or some such.

But yeah the writing is absolutley bottom of the barrel

 

[The Overlord]

it could be drawn by a worse artist

I mean Finch can be pretty bad, but imagine if it was Liefeld or some such.

But yeah the writing is absolutley bottom of the barrel

So there is no way the writing could have been worse?

What if......I got nothing.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

I agree.

I don't think anything on the writing side of Ultimatum could be worse than it is.

The single worst comics I have ever read in my 18 years of collecting.

 

[Grocer Man]

I think Superboy-Prime is a lot more interesting if you think of him as a metaphor for comic book nerds who look at current continuity and say "You're doing it wrong!"

I agree.

I don't think anything on the writing side of Ultimatum could be worse than it is.

The single worst comics I have ever read in my 18 years of collecting.

Didn't you like this when it started?

I'm not going to make fun of you, I'm just asking.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

I think Superboy-Prime is a lot more interesting if you think of him as a metaphor for comic book nerds who look at current continuity and say "You're doing it wrong!"



Didn't you like this when it started?

I'm not going to make fun of you, I'm just asking.

I liked a couple issues of Ultimates 3, and I believe my review of Ultimatum 1 was something like "Isn't that bad if everything is reversed by the end."

 

[The Overlord]

So is this crossover worse then Onslaught?

 

[E]

So is this crossover worse then Onslaught?

Is Ultimatum really considered a crossover? There are crossover issues but it is a miniseries itself.

Regardless, this is trillions of times worse than Onslaught.

 

[DIrishB]

Is Ultimatum really considered a crossover? There are crossover issues but it is a miniseries itself.

Regardless, this is trillions of times worse than Onslaught.

I would consider it a crossover. Sure, its got a mini as its focus, but the ongoings (USM, UXM, and UFF) all had specifically Ultimatum related issues which, as far as I can tell, counts as a crossover.

 

[E]

I would consider it a crossover. Sure, its got a mini as its focus, but the ongoings (USM, UXM, and UFF) all had specifically Ultimatum related issues which, as far as I can tell, counts as a crossover.

I thought the definition of a crossover was a story which was told across multiple books and not based in one central book...?

 

[Bass]

Is Ultimatum really considered a crossover? There are crossover issues but it is a miniseries itself.

Regardless, this is trillions of times worse than Onslaught.

Be more specific. How many trillions? I would say 7.