Civil War series discussion (spoilers)

How would you rate Civil War?


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bwilton said:
...think of your average SWAT team doing an episode of cops going into a crack house. If the crankster gangster starts shooting the heck out of everything and kills a bunch of kids and neighbors dog. We are supposed to stand up and cheer the bravery of Swat and praise them for removing the threat from our community. The loss of life is regrettable but they try. Does that make you feel safer knowing that the government has trained those jokers.
If there's a crack house in your neighborhood and instead of calling the cops or whatever you bust in there and start a fight that results in innocents being killed, do we cheer for your bravery for trying or blame you because you didn't alert someone who could've handled it better?

A SWAT team is trained for what they do. The New Warriors are not. Maybe they should be.
 
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Good point. Man I bought the issue on my lunch break. Totally worth it. I thought Invisible Girl was pretty ignorant. Her brother just got attacked and she makes a statement like that?
 
J. Agamemnon said:
Good point. Man I bought the issue on my lunch break. Totally worth it. I thought Invisible Girl was pretty ignorant. Her brother just got attacked and she makes a statement like that?
Hahahaha... That didn't seem immediately obvious to me. It's almost like an unintentional update of all the stupid lines they used to give Sue, during the Silver Age comics (only *slightly* more dignified and human).

Then again, maybe she doesn't care as much because she knows Johnny's a petulant little schmuck who probably desrves to get the stuffing beaten out of him, every once in a while, regardless of public sentiment about super-human activity :twisted: :lol:

(As one might guess, he is decidedly not one of my fave characters.)
 
Okay, here is my long-winded set of thoughts:

I was initially torn on expectations for the series - the concept has potential, but could easily be a rehash/heavy-handed mess - hence I read most of the interviews/reviews and looked at the previews before deciding whether to buy in or not. So I picked up the first issue with a pretty good idea of what was going to happen, and who would be on what side and why, and wasn't really expecting much in the way of surprises.

Even knowing what was going to happen, though, so much happens in this first issue that it was still an interesting and attention-gripping read. I've been pretty vocal in my criticisms of Disassembled and House of M, but Civil War, to me, shows how large-cast events should be handled. You really get the feeling that every character has something to say about what's going on and intends to tell you ALL about it in future issues. If anything the pace of this issue is almost TOO fast, with far too much happening and being skimmed over, but that effectively sets the groundwork for what is to come when, presumably, the pace slows down and spins into other minis/crossovers.

There are still some things I don't quite buy - one is that the events of House of M had a single thing to do with developing the public issues with this. Maybe if Wanda's insanity and re-structuring of the world were publicly known I could see a generalized anger at the "hubris" of masked crusaders. But right now only a handful of people know that truth, so the idea that the New Warriors incident fueled some sort of "climate of fear" is something that doesn't make any sense. The general attitude toward mutants seems to have always been "the fewer the better" and a massive mutant depowering and die-off doesn't seem likely to spark this kind of reaction.

I get the general idea that Tony Stark is not exactly enthusiastic about the Registration Act - more than he seems to see some of the upsides and is resigned to the inevitability of the Act passing. Unfortunately, to know that, you need to have read the "Road to" issues of Spider-Man and New Avengers: Illuminati. Otherwise, just reading this issue of Civil War, you'd get a different take on it, I think you'd think that Tony is a staunch defender of the Act and I don't believe that's quite true. It's certainly played up that way on the last page of CW #1, but I don't think that's the whole truth. Will that be significant down the road? Perhaps and perhaps not, but that doesn't bode well for Marvel's promise that you don't have to read the tie-in issues to understand what's going on. Grasping the motivations of the major players is a huge part of following the concept.

In the same way, the time scale in the issue seems rushed. Things build too quickly without the hindsight of the prequel issues. CW #1 seems to cover about two and a half days. Maybe that is the point - things are happening so fast that people are not taking the time to stop and think things through. I say about double the story pages would have been nice...

If you've been reading the Daredevil series, you might think that what happens in CW #1 is either a mistake or a spoiler - after all, in his own title, Matt Murdock is in jail, denied pre-trial bail. How then can he be in costume for Civil War? Well, there is a copy-cat Daredevil running around right now - an unknown person, mimicking Daredevil for unknown reasons (as of last issue, out a couple weeks ago, so that's not a spoiler). It's most likely that copycat that shows up in Civil War. But Daredevil's real identity is known to several people at the "superhero summit" in the Baxter Building, and hence they'd know that the person there is a copycat. So is that a spoiler that the copycat is known to them as well, or that the copycat is someone familiar? Since I read internet spoilers (oh me of little spoiler restraint), I know that the identity will be revealed in a future DD issue, but was this an advance hint or not?

I've read quite a bit of chat about the portrayal of the New Warriors, but since I've never read the title (and don't even know who most of the characters are), the opening scene in CW #1 were at least reasonable and internally logical.

Millar is not exactly known for treating non-major characters well, but most everyone seems fairly in-character. He handles the "majors" fairly well. Captain America seems a bit Ultimate-ish, but I guess I can be charitable and say he's under a bit of stress right now and somewhat ticked. In the scenes with SHIELD, the Registration Act has not yet been passed - it's NOT a law yet and might not even be one, and Hill has no business trying to detain Cap in any way - and Hill just feeds Cap's distrust of the pro-registration groups. Sue Storm's comments seem somewhat out of line, considering that she and her family live in the fortress that is the Baxter Building and they are regularly unable to prevent havoc there - I'd also have expected her to be commenting on her brother's injuries. And, sigh, yet again Hank Pym fans are treated to an odd version of him. This does not bode well - and, given Janet's comments, will Hank and Jan end up on opposite sides?

All of this aside, the mini seems to have gotten off to a good start. There are lots of issues raised, and I expect that Millar will be switching back and forth to try to get us to really feel the motivations of the characters on both sides of the fence.

As for me?

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(thanks to Jeb on MillarWorld)
 
vintsukka said:
If there's a crack house in your neighborhood and instead of calling the cops or whatever you bust in there and start a fight that results in innocents being killed, do we cheer for your bravery for trying or blame you because you didn't alert someone who could've handled it better?

A SWAT team is trained for what they do. The New Warriors are not. Maybe they should be.


I am better trained than most cops and SWAT team members. And the point still stands, it was the supervillian who did this not the heroes. The best comics have always been about heroes who have tackled the toughest opponents and come out on top. It's still to stupid for words to blame Iron Man and the heroes for what they've not been involved in. What really blows me away is that we are supposed to buy into the fact that any mutant would buy into this. They have fought against this since the idea came into being.
If someone is to blame, blame it on Hollywood or video games. At any rate I appreciate the discussion but I'm done, you can have it.
 
Rhyo said:
As for me?

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(thanks to Jeb on MillarWorld)
Hell's yeah!!

:rockon:


And great review. Always love 'em, even if I don't agree on somethings (on other reviews that is, not this one).
 
bwilton said:
I am better trained than most cops and SWAT team members. And the point still stands, it was the supervillian who did this not the heroes. The best comics have always been about heroes who have tackled the toughest opponents and come out on top. It's still to stupid for words to blame Iron Man and the heroes for what they've not been involved in. What really blows me away is that we are supposed to buy into the fact that any mutant would buy into this. They have fought against this since the idea came into being.
If someone is to blame, blame it on Hollywood or video games. At any rate I appreciate the discussion but I'm done, you can have it.


But there is no opponent, it's more politics and choosing sides. These people are fighting for their beliefs and standing up for what they believe in. In this case, there is no good or bad. It's just your own spin on this, and what Millar is trying to do is make us pick sides. In the end everything will change and alliances will too. There's gonna be black and white and shades of grey. No bad guy or anything like that. This is EVERYBODY staniding for what they believe in. I by the next issue we'll all be split apart. I already know what side MwoF is gonna be on though.
 
so the idea that the New Warriors incident fueled some sort of "climate of fear" is something that doesn't make any sense
Mutants have suddenly disappeared and the general public doesn't know why, really. Did they go somewhere to plot an anti-human campaign? Does it help whatsoever that the original Avengers disassembled? Probably not. Do people think their children might be in danger due to the New Warriors? Most certainly. I can buy the climate of fear quite easily, given Marvel's in-character environment since the very beginning. Take the Daily Bugle, man. Most of the civies buy into Jonah's crap about heroes being devils because we are, as X-MEN taught us, always afraid of things we don't understand.
 
bwilton said:
I am better trained than most cops and SWAT team members.
I'm happy for you. And that was so not the point.

bwilton said:
And the point still stands, it was the supervillian who did this not the heroes.
Person X, untrained and quite clearly out of his league, wants to be a hero and raids a crack house, resulting in a firefight where the bad guys kill innocent bystanders. Person X gets blamed for trying to handle something he obviously isn't capable of instead of alerting someone who is.

bwilton said:
It's still to stupid for words to blame Iron Man and the heroes for what they've not been involved in.
Sure it's stupid to blame Iron Man, but people are stupid. I was just saying the New Warriors were partly responsible for what happened, even though they weren't the ones to blow up the neighborhood.
 
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jeremiahvedder said:
Do people think their children might be in danger due to the New Warriors? Most certainly.
Exactly.

"The New Warriors couldn't handle those guys. How do we know for sure you guys can't handle them, if the government doesn't say so? Cuz you know, I trust the government."
-Random person
 
And the thing is that they knew they couldn't handle these guys. it was all for a tv show. I think that's the sting for all the mourners. All these people died for ratings. That's why the public wants something to be done about the superheroes. And Nitro exploding and the public outcry is like a mirror to what happened 9/11 and then you had the Patriot Act which alot of people were against.
 
Rorschach said:
you know Rorschach agrees.


Hahahaha, that's right. Now ride off with that generic grappling hook you beautiful b@stard!

TheManWithoutFear said:
:sure: No.

Not ever tragedy, not every terrorist attack mimcs 9/11.


I'm comparing the public outcry and tell me how it doesn't mimic. It could be any situation. One hero effs up and all heroes suffer. One building blows up and the U.S. invades afghanistan and Iraq. N. Korea ain't too far away.
 
Gret points Rhyo, particularly about House of M and it not being public knowledge.

I was looking over this again today and remembered that it was FOUR DOLLARS. That's insane.
 
E said:
Gret points Rhyo, particularly about House of M and it not being public knowledge.

I was looking over this again today and remembered that it was FOUR DOLLARS. That's insane.
Cardstock cover + 48 pages (with ads). That raises the price.
 

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